Yep, me again with system questions...

The GeoMax 2 manual specifically states that the HWG piping should be
...at least 5/8" OD copper...
...insulate all HWG piping with no less than 3/8" closed cell insulation...


My setup is
...PEX tubing labeled 1/2" on the outside
..no insulation on any exposed pipes

Is the PEX an acceptable alternative to the copper, or should it have been larger sized PEX with insulation?

The only PEX on our install is for the DSH lines. It's labeled REHAU RAUPEX O2 Barrier 1/2 Inch PEXa... Measuring the inside of a piece of scrap material, it looks closest to 15/32" ID and 5/8 OD. It is covered in Armacell insulation with 5/8" ID.

I assume this is ok.

When I went through Climatemaster training, they specifically mentioned they did not want us to use PEX for the DSH circuit.
Climatemaster makes the GEOmax for Comfortaire.

From our WF Envision Residential Installation Manual:

"Plumbing Installation
1. Inspect the dip tube in the water heater cold inlet for a check valve. If a check valve is present it must be removed
or damage to the desuperheater circulator will occur.
2. Remove drain valve and fitting.
3. Thread the 3/4-inch NPT x 3-1/2-inch brass nipple into the water heater drain port.
4. Attach the center port of the 3/4-inch FPT tee to the opposite end of the brass nipple.
5. Attach the 1/2-inch copper to 3/4-inch NPT adaptor to the side of the tee closest to the unit.
6. Install the drain valve on the tee opposite the adaptor.
7. Run interconnecting tubing from the tee to DHW water out.
8. Cut the cold water “IN” line going to the water heater.
9. Insert the reducing solder tee in line with cold water “IN” line as shown.
10. Run interconnecting copper tubing between the unit DHW water “IN” and the tee (1/2-inch nominal).
The recommended maximum distance is 50 feet.
11. To prevent air entrapment in the system, install a vent coupling at the highest point of the interconnecting lines.
12. Insulate all exposed surfaces of both connecting water lines with 3/8-inch wall closed cell insulation.
Note: All plumbing and piping connections must comply with local plumbing codes. "

Does it seem strange to anyone that #7 does not specify material, but #10 specifies copper? WF?

The closed cell foam requirement was reportedly for the same reason as the copper requirement....heat.
Open cell foam can not withstand continuous high temps; PEX has limits as well.
J

I believe astm for pex is 200* @ 80 psi. You would use 3/4 pex to flow the same as 5/8 od type M cu. Staurt unfortunately you had a hack install your system and you need to contact Climatemaster and get a pro to go thru your installation and make an assessment...Eric

I hope ya'll are kidding me...

So, current problems with my system:

Manifold installed backwards, so no gpm/flow indications
Air in ground loop making hammering noises when running
broken motorized damper on zone 1
1/2" PEX uninsulated instead of 5/8" copper insulated for DSH
Just found that the DATs sensor manual specifically states it should not be directly above the blower/aux coils...guess where mine is.
heat loss of house is calculated at 32,000 btu (3 tons), I have a 4 ton system, it can't heat the house in winter beyond 64 F without AUX
ROMEX used for GeoFlow pumps instead of armored cable

AAIIEEE....I don't even want to think about how much it cost to buy this system...and how much it might cost to fix it.

Sorry I'm not kidding and do call Climatemaster and they should give you the area rep who should be very interested in fixing your situation. He will not do any of the work but will point you in the right direction on a local contractor that can. I would suggest you contact your attorney...... Joe and I have asked about the geo field design......Eric

Posted By stuart.wyss on 19 Aug 2010 12:07 PM

heat loss of house is calculated at 32,000 btu (3 tons), I have a 4 ton system, it can't heat the house in winter beyond 64 F without AUX

As long as you are comfortable with the humidity level in the summer, I wouldn't worry about the 1 ton oversizing.  When you get the installation issues fixed, you may at least get the benefit of reduced/no aux heat in the winter.  The other side of this is that I assume the same installer also did the heat loss calculation?  If so, who knows if it was calculated correctly.  Maybe you really have a 4 ton heat loss...

Yep, same guy did the heat loss calc. I'm assuming it's close to correct because a different installer sized a system for my house at 3 1/2 tons.

I don't mind an oversized system - it's already paid for, and the humidity is not an issue (which I know it can be). I'd really like to take care of the aux heat issue as it sounds like 4 tons is more than enough at the temperatures we're getting. Unless I was leaving a bunch of windows open in the middle of winter, I don't know why aux was on so much.

Another contractor, specifically contacted by the manufacturer of the ground loop (Rehau) is contacting me by this weekend to schedule a visit and assessing the situation. I'll most likely have to pay him...annoying when my original guy gave me a 2-year service contract as part of the installation deal.

You can call the Courthouse in Doylestown to find out what options you may have. It may be a good idea (check first as I am not a legal expert) to send the installer a certified letter noting all of the problems identified to date and all of the times you attempted to make contact with him without getting any response. To be successful, you may need to get your ducks in a row now. If the installer is still operating, you may be able to recover some or all of the expenses associated with correction of the problems. Hopefully, he won't file for bankruptcy until after you have been paid and after the preference period (if any) has elapsed.

Stuart,
Most important thing is to get the system working right.
Once that cost is identified we can worry about action.
One of the upsides of geo rookies is they often charge less than experienced pros to do the job.
We don't know yet that you have bee bilked or only paid for part of a job which is not yet done.
J

I find it easier when things go wrong and you have a negligent party to a contract that you consult an attorney sooner than latter...but this could be a simple fix. Sometimes its just the thought that counts and its nice to send registered mail.
Stuart is the ground loop contractor also an issue as it sounded as though they were cooperative....Eric

I'm gonna go out on a limb here with the suggestion that the difference between the PEX and Copper is relatively minor. Assuming reasonable flow rate, in fact a mere one gallon per minute will skim off 5000 btuh with a temp rise of just 10 degrees. That heat rate is more than enough to meet virtually any geo unit's desuper output. PEX, Copper, rubber hose, CPVC should all meet the need of a DSH installation. DSH pumps are configured to cut out on high temp, well below the upper temp limits of any of these pipe materials. The DSH fittings on the cabinet exterior are well isolated from the potentially 200 deg f hot gas compressor discharge, the source of heat for DSH recovery.

I like the idea of a short length of flexible line between the unit cabinet and house plumbing to deal with vibration. Anything except directly plumbing copper to the geo cabinet will likely suffice to meet that concern.

If I've missed anything fundamental to DSH plumbing in the foregoing, by all means set me straight.

Posted By ilgeo on 20 Aug 2010 12:23 AM
I find it easier when things go wrong and you have a negligent party to a contract that you consult an attorney sooner than latter...but this could be a simple fix. Sometimes its just the thought that counts and its nice to send registered mail.

We're on the same page.  I could be mistaken, but I believe one of the first things that will be asked for in a proceeding is "Can you prove that you notified the other party of the problems and gave them an opportunity to correct them?"  Without a letter with return receipt it is your word against theirs, and based on what has been explained here, I wouldn't trust the installer to tell the truth.

Perhaps a free initial consultation with an attorney may provide needed guidance.  A nicely worded certified letter with return receipt explaining the problems, lack of response to date, and a reasonable deadline may be the way to go here.  Of course, if Stuart is getting free (or low cost) estimates from others detailing what is needed to correct the problems, that buys some time.  But I wouldn't start fixing things without getting professional advise in order to improve chances for a successful claim against the original installer.  Depending on the cost of the repairs, small claims court may be an option, but I'd still get professional advise to start.

Posted By geome on 20 Aug 2010 08:08 AM 
But I wouldn't start fixing things without getting professional advise in order to improve chances for a successful claim against the original installer. 

Perhaps I'm too nice
If the goal here is to get a working system, I don't think an attorney can fix it.
This may need little more than a dip switch or thermostat adjustment.

I shudder to think what it would cost for an attorney to to recover $100.
j

I don't recall suggesting spending more to save less. I mentioned the possibility of a free consultation to get professional advise, getting free or low cost repair estimates so the cost of the repair work is known, etc. Then, protecting yourself prior to proceeding with the repair.

Maybe if an attorney spends enough time here, he could fix a $100 problem for $500. :-)

I'm glad you guys have a sense of humor. I don't mean every time you have a little problem or dont get your way but when an attorney is needed the right one can be a great help. I say this from experience. My point on the pex is that its a fine piping material for this application. Rubber hose not so much remember Heatway. What ever you install in a mechanical system should last 20 to 30 years.

Posted By ilgeo on 20 Aug 2010 10:28 AM 
My point on the pex is that its a fine piping material for this application. Rubber hose not so much remember Heatway. What ever you install in a mechanical system should last 20 to 30 years.

Maybe it is , but ClimateMaster (builder of Geo Max) didn't think so as late as '09 (I don't have the '10 book). HWG piping was specified as "5/8" OD copper minimum". Instructor specifically said "no pex." It also insists on closed cell foam insulation.
While some PEX does boast high temp tolerance, most would ask you not to use it in continuous high temps (i.e. hot water baseboard connectors).
Doesn't mean it won't work here (might be a throwback to R22 days), but manufacturers' recommendations are at least noteworthy if not mandatory (code).
It would be interesting to hear the Water Furnace posistion on PEX for the DSH.......
j