I am in the process of choosing a Geothermal installation for my home which is located in Catlettsburg, Ky. The square footage is 2880. The home is 10 yrs old, has R19 insulation in outside walls, R30 in ceiling. The quotes have been varied and include:  5 ton unit with 5 vertical loops of 150 ft each
              4 ton unit with 4 vertical loops of 150 ft each
              4 ton unit with 4 vertical loops of 200 ft each
              5 ton unit with 5 vertical loops of 200 ft each
Only one contractor did a thorough walk through, inspecting both the attic and under the house. I have yet to see a Manual J calculation although I have mentioned I would like to have one performed prior to my decision.  I am also getting varied opinions regarding the backfill material for the loop holes. The choices I have been given are pea gravel, sand or the cuttings from the hole boring.
I am trying to decide between the Climatemaster Tranquility 27 and the Waterfurnace Envision.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

Welcome to the forum! I hate to disappoint you but giving the information there is just no way anyone can or should tell you "that is it, the right system for you". Your proposals vary between 4 and 5 ton supported by 600-1000 feet of vertical loop. Each one could be the right one. You have to get an idea not what is the best configuration, but who in your opinion is the best installer, who in turn will then choose the best configuration for you. Check everyones references, call or email their customers, look at some of their installs, find the company/installer who knows how to make a geosystem work and goes the extra mile to make it the best one for you. Everything else is secondary.

Thanks for the reply. I have been leaning towards a contractor who has been in the Heating and Air business for 42 years. They are also offering 10 years parts and labor on the system. They cover the remainder of what is not covered by Climatemaster's Warranty.  I will ask for references and if all is good I will go with the 4 ton, 4 150 vertical loop.  Should I still ask for a Manual J before committing to a contract?

Yes, but expect to pay for it. Try to negotiate that the price of the J calc comes off the system job.

Posted By Sherry1 on 27 Oct 2010 10:14 PM
I am trying to decide between the Climatemaster Tranquility 27 and the Waterfurnace Envision.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My view is slanted toward the Envision since:
I have two of these units, and am very happy with them.
WF requires that their dealers be trained (by WF.)
WF has been the only manufacturer to actively participate in geothermal forums helping its customers (including me.)

I agree that you should get at least one manual J performed.  Get more than one if you can since mistakes can be made.  With more than one calculation, you can compare them for differences.  You can even do one yourself with a temporary software license (others here can give you more information on this since I have not done this.)  Some installers may give this to you as part of the quote, and some may charge you for it.  Neither is right or wrong since it does take some time to do this.

In relation to the backfill I will aproach it from a proffesional standpoint.  IGSHPA governs geothermal, and sets the standards for "workman like" in the form of their guidelines.  Their guidelines call for grouting the entire bore with bentonite grout.
  Local regulations in regard to geothermal vertical bores vary wildly and are slow to "get up to speed" with industry standards.  From a proffesional standpoint I would not want to ever construct anything that was not acceptable to the IGSHPA guidelines.
  What you choose to do is entirely up to you, and I am willing to bet if you request that the boreholes be grouted you are going to meet a wall of resistance equal to the great wall of china and be punished financially for your request.  The question still begs, Why do people continue to resist change and industry wide accepted practices?

Hope this helps
Eric

Posted By waterpirate on 28 Oct 2010 08:11 AM
IGSHPA governs geothermal, and sets the standards for "workman like" in the form of their guidelines.  Their guidelines call for grouting the entire bore with bentonite grout.

From a proffesional standpoint I would not want to ever construct anything that was not acceptable to the IGSHPA guidelines.

What you choose to do is entirely up to you, and I am willing to bet if you request that the boreholes be grouted you are going to meet a wall of resistance equal to the great wall of china and be punished financially for your request.

From this, it sure sounds like grouting the entire bore with bentonite grout is the way to go (from the bottom up, right?).  Do you really mean punished, or does this grouting method cost more in terms of materials and labor (compared to the other quoted methods) that the customer should rightly be charged for?

Posted By Sherry1 on 28 Oct 2010 12:09 AM
Thanks for the reply. I have been leaning towards a contractor who has been in the Heating and Air business for 42 years. They are also offering 10 years parts and labor on the system. They cover the remainder of what is not covered by Climatemaster's Warranty.  I will ask for references and if all is good I will go with the 4 ton, 4 150 vertical loop.  Should I still ask for a Manual J before committing to a contract?

How long have they been in the geo business?
We have a WF dealer around here who while sizeable and in the business for some time, is new to geo. They do not have much part inventory (which then must be mailed in as WF is dealer direct).
 
A customer of mine this summer, needed a new blower motor which I had to order through them the following day (FRI). It arrived Monday and turned out to be bad. I ordered a new one Tuesday which arrived Weds and finally in the middle of a heat wave my customers system was back on line 7 days later. With Climatemaster represented by a state wide supply house, repairs would have been performed the previous Friday. Curiously the system had a pile of failed parts including the same motor lying around. Follow-up found system wired poorly and browned out it's entire service life (since remedied).
Now it is not WF's fault that the repair part was bad. It's not their fault that their factory trained (no longer a rep) continued to replace parts (fixing the symptoms not the problem). Nor is it their fault that their new dealer doesn't carry many parts. Nor is this to imply I think WF inferior, I simply prefer different distribution methods and a couple features of the product I carry.

Difference maker will be your dealer not the brand.
A good dealer will have parts or "temp in" others until they can get the right one.

Do not set your cap in a particular direction until that dealer proves to you they've employed proper design techniques (man. J). Shortcutting design is a bad start and suggests other "shortcuts" may occur in the installation process.

Good Luck,
Joe

Thanks everyone for your input. I have someone scheduled to come out today or tomorrow to do the Manual J computation. The company has been in business since 1968 and are not new to the geo installs. More info will follow. Thanks again.

It does not matter how long a company is in the HVAC business, what matters is how long they are in the geo business. We all started somewhere and had a learning curve, but for a customer an experienced installer is really the key. Don't rely on their answers, some of them might lie to you. Check them out!

Climatemaster and Waterfurnace are both premium brands, they stand behind their products, hard to go wrong with any of them. Joe has a point, difference comes more from their local support people.

Grounting: In general, a borehole should be grouted from the bottom to the top with either bentonite or thermally enhanced grout. It ensures that the layers are sealed and there no exchange of, lets say poor quality water, and deeper down a layer with drinking water quality. Also it ensures that the loop performs correctly, since it thermally connects the pipes in the borehole to the surrounding soil. I don't discuss this even with the customer and give them the option of different fill material (and we are not required to grout and seal in our region/state).

From what you are describing I would be surprised if your house has more than 50000 btu/h heat at 7 degrees outside design temp for Catlettsburg, Ky and the bin data. Which also means that a 4 ton system would be more than sufficient. The important thing is to get the Manual J and see if your house has any details out of the ordinary. Once you have that, the system size can be determined fairly easy. The questions than is: How much loop do you need to support that kind of system in your area (weather and soil conditions).

Posted By geome on 28 Oct 2010 08:30 AM

Posted By waterpirate on 28 Oct 2010 08:11 AM
IGSHPA governs geothermal, and sets the standards for "workman like" in the form of their guidelines.  Their guidelines call for grouting the entire bore with bentonite grout.

From a proffesional standpoint I would not want to ever construct anything that was not acceptable to the IGSHPA guidelines.

What you choose to do is entirely up to you, and I am willing to bet if you request that the boreholes be grouted you are going to meet a wall of resistance equal to the great wall of china and be punished financially for your request.

From this, it sure sounds like grouting the entire bore with bentonite grout is the way to go (from the bottom up, right?).  Do you really mean punished, or does this grouting method cost more in terms of materials and labor (compared to the other quoted methods) that the customer should rightly be charged for?

In areas where they backfill with cuttings/pea gravel/sand chances are that we are talking about air rotary drilling where the drive shoe is set into bedrock for a water well.  What does this mean?  The driller has heard of grout, and unicorns, and the likelyhood of them owning a grout machine is even more a myth.  They just do not use grout so it is foreign to them.
Eric

Thanks Eric.
I needed a good laugh.

Sherry1, perhaps you should discuss grouting with the quoting installers.  They should know (or can find out) if anyone has grouting capability in your area.

Update: Decided on the company who had been in the geo installation longer, did a Manual J which called for a 4 ton unit, and who has the best warranty. To date, the wells have been dug and the loops installed. The installers have been great thus far and I could not be more pleased. Looking forward to joining the rank of Geo owners! So long to high propane bills! Now, what to do with my used Carrier Heat pump and propane gas furnace?????? Anyone need a good used 10 year old system? Will sell reasonable.

Purple Heart, Church, Habitat for Humanity........all may be interested in your old equipment, find someone who can really use it and you will get a tax write off more valuable than the couple bucks your equipment might be worth.
Unfortunately in my area used equipment is a dime a dozen thanks to thieves who steal from foreclosed homes. One fella looking for an installer for his new airconditioner commented he had permission from the owner to take the AC. I suggested he show me the note from the bank approving the removal of central air system to which he replied "no not the bank, the lady giving the house back to the bank". I informed him we do not work with stolen equipment- which remarkably left him scratching his head.
j

Posted By joe.ami on 13 Nov 2010 09:43 AM
.....no not the bank, the lady giving the house back to the bank". I informed him we do not work with stolen equipment- which remarkably left him scratching his head.
j

and to think that these people get to vote

......and have children.......

I'd like to see rules where only licensed contractors or certified techs could turn AC parts in to scrap metals.

Sherry,
Try Craigslist. I sold my 10yr old heat pump in less than a week and got a decent price for it!