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Significantly Reducing the High Cost of Drilling & Loop Installation
Last Post 18 Nov 2010 12:55 PM by a0128958. 32 Replies. |
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Bill Neukranz
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| 10 Nov 2010 08:35 AM |
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My guess is the high costs of drilling and loop installation are the biggest barriers to more people not being able to take advantage of geothermal heating and cooling. And that if drilling and loop installation costs were much less, geothermal heating and cooling would become the defacto standard due to it's substantial lower energy needs.
So I'm curious on the thoughts any of you may have on how to significantly reduce the high cost of drilling and loop installation. In other words, what creative system and loop design techniques do you think would result in much lower costs? What about new design layouts, or system components, or materials, or methods?
I'll be happy to put together a summary of the thoughts expressed here.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 10 Nov 2010 12:27 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 10 Nov 2010 08:35 AM
My guess is the high costs of drilling and loop installation are the biggest barriers to more people not being able to take advantage of geothermal heating and cooling. And that if drilling and loop installation costs were much less, geothermal heating and cooling would become the defacto standard due to it's substantial lower energy needs.
So I'm curious on the thoughts any of you may have on how to significantly reduce the high cost of drilling and loop installation. In other words, what creative system and loop design techniques do you think would result in much lower costs? What about new design layouts, or system components, or materials, or methods?
I'll be happy to put together a summary of the thoughts expressed here.
Best regards,
Bill
Bill, the loop installation cost isn't the only barrier to making geothermal the "defacto" standard in heating, cooling and hot water. In new construction geothermal can be the standard right now - if more builders, architects and mechanical engineers would embrace the technology. Too many "sell off" geothermal because they're not familiar with it or have been burned by bad geothermal contractors. Paul Auerbach www.TotalGreenUS.com |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 10 Nov 2010 12:51 PM |
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I think that we are pretty much maxed out in adding efficiency to loop design and install. The slinkies were a big leap forward, but you cannot cheat the physics much further. The material is great and reliable. If you look at Europe, what changed the market share of geo was building codes (like Germany now mandating a share of the house heat supply coming from renewable sources) and a significant increase in fossil fuel costs. If a gallon of heating oil is $6/gallon, pretty much every new built house would be geo. For that you then need a whole crowd of qualified installers and designers, who need to be trained. So lowering costs further has its limits. The price of fuel will have its biggest impact in consumer behavior, and the market share of geosystems. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 10 Nov 2010 10:14 PM |
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More competition hands down is what we need to lower the prices!!
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11 Nov 2010 05:59 AM |
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Location,location,location
If you all would move to the Delmarva Penninsula I would be happy to drill your vertical loops,grout,manifold,install the pump pack,add 20% methanol,make the connection to your units, and purge the whole system. Couple that level of performance with a 5 year parts and labor garauntee, all for $7.50 per foot of drilling.
Cheap enough?
Competition in a market definately lowers the price, but it also takes an experienced installer who is driven to push for effecient means of doing the work, not just grinding it out the way we were taught many years ago as apprentices.
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 11 Nov 2010 09:01 AM |
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Waterpirate would you commute to MI?
Biggest thing we could do to reduce prices on geo is to stop advancing the quality and efficiency....oh and keep the government out of it too!
Biggest contributors to higher prices are demand for multi stage units, mandatory switch to R-410, demand for contribution to DHW production...... I even remember a recent comment about the poor appearence of a galvanized housed FHP (on this or another forum), so throw in the cost of a shiney and cool stainless steel cabinet vs powder coat or galvanized housing that doesn't catch the eye so much.
A 25 year old heat pump I replaced recently was open loop, 1 stage, attached to a different air handler, heat only, Frankenstein looking Traverse City original. These things looked like they were built on a work bench in someone's garage......Oh and manufacturer never paid for required UL or AHRI or whatever (5 figure lab fees) so homeowner was cheated out of her tax credit. All she got was 25 years of reliable, in expensive heat for ~ 2K (husband installed it himself).
Why did we replace it? Bad thermostat. That was the breakdown! Of course she wanted cooling in the summer and tax credit was there.
If you would like to spend less on geo, demand less. 1 stage units worked fine (granted 2 stage units can be advantageous in some applications though not as many as you might think). Ask for a powder coat or galvanized finish. Do not demand "a little extra loop" in fact go open loop! Pick a basic thermostat (not the $200 touch screen). Select a unit with ozone depleting refrigerant. Make your hot water with a water heater........
Due respect to OP Bill. The challanges in your area are different than many others and the payback for additional expense of geo is slower. In areas like mine where most of my customers can go horizontal or even open loop and are heating with propane, it is a much easier decision. The thing that is driving my prices up more than anything else right now, however, is purchasers' options.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:29 AM |
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This is good discussion. Thanks.
For a closed loop system, one of the big things I wonder about is if there's signficant savings possible with ability to more accurately determine how much pipe in the ground is really needed.
In other words, for residential jobs, is it general industry practice to bore more holes, or dig more trench, than what is estimated to be needed, because it would otherwise be too expensive to more accurately determine number of holes and depth, or length of trench?
There a many s/w programs available to determine the parameters of the loop. The programs produce number of holes, depth of holes, length of trenching, sizing of pipes, etc. But a key variable that influences the results is the soil's heat transfer ability.
I would venture to guess that few professionals, if any, do a test well / trench to determine the soil's heat transfer ability. I would think this cost would just be out of consideration (again, for residential, not for big commercial).
So isn't it really still just a guess, even using fancy loop design s/w packages?
What I'm wondering is a couple of things:
1.) Do most professionals add more wells / trench than what a loop design package says is needed (or put in a very conservative soil heat transfer number), savings the time they otherwise would have to spend to try to get a more accurate soil transfer number?
2.) If it was possible to more accurately know the soil's heat transfer ability, is there loop savings to be had because now the additional loop capacity doesn't have to be added?
Thanks and best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:48 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 10 Nov 2010 10:14 PM
More competition hands down is what we need to lower the prices!!
OK, then, what's needed to have a step function increase in competition for installing geothermal systems in the residential market? It seems to me that with conventional A/C, combined with a furnace (using any kind of heat source - i.e. electricity, gas, oil, etc.), there's no installation effort required for the energy source to run the equipment. You simply 'plug it in' (connect it to the electric grid, connect the boiler, etc.). In other words, there's no barrier to market (installing HVAC equipment) at least from having to create the energy source/sink. I think the same can be said for conventional air-to-air heat pumps (and I realize that conventional A/C is really a one-way heat pump). There is no design work required to build a custom sized condenser coil. Instead you choose from many prepackaged outside condenser units - units that are purchased 'off the shelf' (i.e. from a distributor). It's not until you get to geothermal heat pumps that now you've got to add to the installation the design of a second energy source/sink (i.e. heat sourced/sinked from/to the earth, a body of water, etc.), in addition to everything else (structure's Manual J, correct heat distribution system within the structure, etc.). Instead of simply 'plugging it in' for the electricity as the sole energy source, now you have to add in the complexities of the earth (or a body of water) as a second energy source/sink. So I keep wondering how to achieve the efficiencies afforded by using the earth's renewable heat, while not making it such a significant step function increase in cost versus conventional A/C, conventional furnaces/boilers, and air-to-air heat pumps. Best regards, Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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gonegeo
New Member
Posts:65
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:49 AM |
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It is natural for anyone to want to come up with "rules of thumb" to make this easier than it really is. As with any system design, each step/component requires calculations and attention to tolerances. If a guess is used instead of actual calculations and there is no verifiable feedback/testing, you will end up with systems that don't provide rated performance or may not "work" at all. There are over 75+ steps to design loops, component selection, and duct design. Sure you can oversize everything. Will that get you the efficiency and performance YOU desire? Maybe. Each customer has to decide what their priorities are? Green? Low first cost? Low operation cost? Super efficient at any cost? Lots of variables here. This is why engineers/designers require training to do this correct, or for that matter, designing anything. All that said. If you neighbor has the same size house, with the same overburden, you may get away with copying their system and be happy with the results. Once you know all the risks you can take some educated shortcuts. |
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www.energysquid.com "Dirt Cheap Energy for Life" |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:55 AM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 11 Nov 2010 10:29 AM
1.) Do most professionals add more wells / trench than what a loop design package says is needed (or put in a very conservative soil heat transfer number), savings the time they otherwise would have to spend to try to get a more accurate soil transfer number?
2.) If it was possible to more accurately know the soil's heat transfer ability, is there loop savings to be had because now the additional loop capacity doesn't have to be added?
Thanks and best regards,
Bill
Many pros do add extra loop for a variety of reasons. Doc has articulated well that due to compaction requirements in his area larger fields are win, win for his customers. Others are afraid of their own technology or ignorant to local conditions....one installer recently suggested I had short looped by 25% a project where wells passed through not 1 but 2 aquifers. His approach is "better safe than sorry". Design software incidently suggests I need significantly more if I call this damp vs saturated soil, so perhaps there are not enough choices on the particular program as neither perfectly applies. Meanwhile lots of local pros have been doing 600' horizontal slinkies and 150' vertical wells with great success for some time now. So here is the thing if you have a slinky size that you can essentially mass produce (adding one more if dry soil is discovered) is there really cost savings benefit to trimming these to 490' slinkies if the soil is saturated? Or does it make more sense to handle things with a little bit of the "mass production" mind set. I know my software designs heavy and I know what works in 90% of the applications in my area and how to handle the other 10% (so I do not always adhere to the software). Would there be an economic advantage to studying every site to minimize loops? IM(not so)HO only on large commercial applications with many tons of vertical bores. Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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gonegeo
New Member
Posts:65
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| 11 Nov 2010 11:02 AM |
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Bill,
To be more direct about your step function question, I think when fossil fuel prices change, putting loops in gets less costly, and the combination of the two provide a 1-3 yr ROI instead of 3-7, you will see more systems go in with some "Rules of Thumb" that add 20-30% more loop/HP/duct without noticing a huge bump in the price. Just like fossil fuel systems now that are over estimated. Will they be as efficient as they could be? No. But neither are most fossil fuel systems in use today. And most people don't care. They just want to see lower energy bills and don't want to do anything except turn the thermostat down/up once in awhile. They are really too busy to think about their heating/cooling systems very often. |
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www.energysquid.com "Dirt Cheap Energy for Life" |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11 Nov 2010 11:19 AM |
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In regard to sizing the loops I take a "henry Ford" attitude about the scope of the whole residential market. We drive the market because we are better,faster,smarter. We achieved that by standardisieng just about everything we could. We buy product in bulk, install in bulk, and can have whatever color loop you want as long as it is black. Our success is more about the business model, not the geo model. We manufacture and sell a product the most cost effective way possible, which delivers a quality product to the customer at a lower price in the end.
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 11 Nov 2010 11:24 AM |
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Posted By gonegeo on 11 Nov 2010 11:02 AM
Bill, To be more direct about your step function question, I think when fossil fuel prices change, putting loops in gets less costly, and the combination of the two provide a 1-3 yr ROI instead of 3-7, you will see more systems go in with some "Rules of Thumb" that add 20-30% more loop/HP/duct without noticing a huge bump in the price. Just like fossil fuel systems now that are over estimated. Will they be as efficient as they could be? No. But neither are most fossil fuel systems in use today. And most people don't care. They just want to see lower energy bills and don't want to do anything except turn the thermostat down/up once in awhile. They are really too busy to think about their heating/cooling systems very often. I think this is well said. It reminds me of my gas-fired furnace I originally had before I changed to geothermal. It was a 120KBTU/hr unit, way overkill for my residence here in Dallas. But it had to be this big because that's all that was available 'off the shelf' that would also accommodate the blower fan necessary for 5 tons of cooling capacity. You're right - I didn't care. I just wanted reliable heat, and natural gas is very inexpensive here (still). In the meantime, though, before fossil fuel prices change, what could be done to signficantly lower the cost of geothermal heating and cooling installation. My guess is GSHP equipment itself is similarly priced to conventional equipment. And thus the increased cost is associated with 'connecting' to the second heat source/sink (earth, water, etc.) What does someone need to invent, or create, or change, such that geothermal installation costs could be significantly reduced? Best regards, Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 11 Nov 2010 11:28 AM |
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I recently had a competitor quote a $30.000 test well to perform ground conductivity studies for a 20 ton commercial system in order to tell the customer the feasibility of the system. We came in and installed the horizontal loopfield for a total of $40,000. Case closed!
I think the biggest impact on price is the know how and the efficiency of the installer. He has to be paid enough to stay in business, but he should also be compensated for a job well done. I keep saying it, I welcome every competition, that is where I can shine, but that does not mean I can suddenly lower my prices significantly. We have seen competition come and go, but we are still there, doing better than ever. People understand that they have to pay a minimum price for things which brings them significant value. Those who do not are exactly the right customers for our competition! |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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gonegeo
New Member
Posts:65
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| 11 Nov 2010 12:06 PM |
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What does someone need to invent, or create, or change?
People need to change mostly... in their thinking.
To move this industry forward, someone has to take risks and experiment more. Better materials, out of the box thinking, to concentrate the solar energy stored in a specific area of earth.... and then overcome resistance to a new way..
We are doing that. www.energysquid.com
Ideas,
modifications to drill rigs for this industry. More than we have already.
modifications to pipe materials and configurations allowing for easier excavating, placement.
There is a lot going on that I know about and I'm sure more that I don't know. You will be seeing more ways of extracting BTUs out of water and earth soon. These new ways will lower the cost and complexity while preserving the natural balance of the temperatures over time. This industry may have stayed still for a while, but it is not now.
"Dirt Cheap Energy for Life" |
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www.energysquid.com "Dirt Cheap Energy for Life" |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 11 Nov 2010 04:38 PM |
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... |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 11 Nov 2010 04:39 PM |
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So it comes down to added value. If you come up with something which adds value, people will appreciate it. If not, they will not bother. So the next things I can see change are not getting the price lowered magically. All you have to do is use Europe as a predictor of outcome. Sweden did not get a 95% percent geothermal market share for new builds because installs are cheaper there. They are actually more expensive. Fossil fuel there is so expensive that Geo shines even more. You don't need tax credits when the gallon heating oil runs $6/gallon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Sweden_an_Oil-Free_Society
I can see high temperature W-W units, year around hot water generators, with standard outdoor reset, and variable speed compressors and circulation pumps. Just go to Frankfurt next year and you know what is coming. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:11 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 11 Nov 2010 11:24 AM
Posted By gonegeo on 11 Nov 2010 11:02 AM
Bill, To be more direct about your step function question, I think when fossil fuel prices change, putting loops in gets less costly, and the combination of the two provide a 1-3 yr ROI instead of 3-7, you will see more systems go in with some "Rules of Thumb" that add 20-30% more loop/HP/duct without noticing a huge bump in the price. Just like fossil fuel systems now that are over estimated. Will they be as efficient as they could be? No. But neither are most fossil fuel systems in use today. And most people don't care. They just want to see lower energy bills and don't want to do anything except turn the thermostat down/up once in awhile. They are really too busy to think about their heating/cooling systems very often.
I think this is well said. It reminds me of my gas-fired furnace I originally had before I changed to geothermal. It was a 120KBTU/hr unit, way overkill for my residence here in Dallas. But it had to be this big because that's all that was available 'off the shelf' that would also accommodate the blower fan necessary for 5 tons of cooling capacity. You're right - I didn't care. I just wanted reliable heat, and natural gas is very inexpensive here (still).
In the meantime, though, before fossil fuel prices change, what could be done to signficantly lower the cost of geothermal heating and cooling installation. My guess is GSHP equipment itself is similarly priced to conventional equipment. And thus the increased cost is associated with 'connecting' to the second heat source/sink (earth, water, etc.)
What does someone need to invent, or create, or change, such that geothermal installation costs could be significantly reduced?
Best regards,
Bill
I would be very interested in this also. So, the installers on here, what would be approx the difference in cost for a 4 ton geo unit vs a 4 ton air-air.....just the unit itself ??
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 11 Nov 2010 10:13 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 11 Nov 2010 11:24 AM
Posted By gonegeo on 11 Nov 2010 11:02 AM
Bill, To be more direct about your step function question, I think when fossil fuel prices change, putting loops in gets less costly, and the combination of the two provide a 1-3 yr ROI instead of 3-7, you will see more systems go in with some "Rules of Thumb" that add 20-30% more loop/HP/duct without noticing a huge bump in the price. Just like fossil fuel systems now that are over estimated. Will they be as efficient as they could be? No. But neither are most fossil fuel systems in use today. And most people don't care. They just want to see lower energy bills and don't want to do anything except turn the thermostat down/up once in awhile. They are really too busy to think about their heating/cooling systems very often.
I think this is well said. It reminds me of my gas-fired furnace I originally had before I changed to geothermal. It was a 120KBTU/hr unit, way overkill for my residence here in Dallas. But it had to be this big because that's all that was available 'off the shelf' that would also accommodate the blower fan necessary for 5 tons of cooling capacity. You're right - I didn't care. I just wanted reliable heat, and natural gas is very inexpensive here (still).
In the meantime, though, before fossil fuel prices change, what could be done to signficantly lower the cost of geothermal heating and cooling installation. My guess is GSHP equipment itself is similarly priced to conventional equipment. And thus the increased cost is associated with 'connecting' to the second heat source/sink (earth, water, etc.)
What does someone need to invent, or create, or change, such that geothermal installation costs could be significantly reduced?
Best regards,
Bill
I would be very interested in this also. So, the installers on here, what would be approx the difference in cost for a 4 ton geo unit vs a 4 ton air-air.....just the unit itself ??
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 12 Nov 2010 08:27 AM |
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A split system geo would be about $1,000 more than a high end ASHP. The labor is about 100 man hours more to install it.
Soon as it takes no longer to install than an air conditioner and no extra material (like $1,000 in flow center and thermostat alone), no heavy equipment and 1 skilled trade vs 4....... geo will cost no more than an ASHP.
Compare it to the cost of an ASHP, a drain field (or multiple water wells), an electric service and 2 new water heaters..........and it's really quite a bargain
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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