foaf
New Member
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| 20 Nov 2010 04:23 PM |
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So they use a binary cycle for mid temperature geothermal power.
I have been trying to figure out a way to use a binary cycle to tap into very low temperature geothermal, like you might have installed in your home, to generate power.
The problem is the efficiencies.
To improve efficiencies, it seems that it might be possible to do everything with one sort of geothermal jet engine.
OK from 10,000 feet.
You have DX type ground loops. Your compressor is run off the same axle as the turbines that power the compressor. The secondary cycle powers the turbines using fuel injectors for the refrigerant to atomize the refrigerant before contacting the heat transfer surfaces, to maximize gas pressure. The same axle drives the compressor and a generator.
Pressurizing the gas from the ground loops releases energy into the heat transfer surfaces, that are sprayed with atomized secondary cycle refrigerant to cause rapid gas expansion, and power turbines, to turn the axle, that compresses the gas from the ground loops, that releases energy into heat transfer coils, ....
The secondary refrigerant could be cooled by another ground loop. It should all result in a net heat loss from the ground, but if the heat exchange could be optimized to provide enough power to run the compressor and a small generator, you have geothermal power.
This would all depend on the fuel injector concept improving heat transfer and gas pressure, to squeeze a higher percentage of energy out of the lower temperature differential.
In this way it is not necessary to generate electricity to power the compressor with it's loss of energy conversion efficiencies. The turbine powers the compressor when it spins. Further, the turbine could also power a generator, and you should be able to control the speed of the whole to adjust power output, by controling the fuel injectors.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 21 Nov 2010 09:25 AM |
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Are we on the internet equivalent of Candid Camera here?
Is this thread premature, April First being quite a ways off? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 21 Nov 2010 10:46 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 21 Nov 2010 09:25 AM
Are we on the internet equivalent of Candid Camera here?
Is this thread premature, April First being quite a ways off?
 |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 21 Nov 2010 03:53 PM |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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Bergy
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 21 Nov 2010 04:57 PM |
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Just when I thought my life was finding structure....What next??  Bergy |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 23 Nov 2010 04:15 PM |
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WTF??? Is this a geothermal forum or what. |
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Bergy
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 23 Nov 2010 05:03 PM |
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What type of Geothermal are you talking about? This forum is for Ground Source Heat Pumps coupled to open, closed or pond loops.
Bergy
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 23 Nov 2010 07:21 PM |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 23 Nov 2010 07:23 PM |
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I view this thread as similar to the comics in the newspaper.
Does FOAF mean "Full of..." oh never mind |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 23 Nov 2010 07:34 PM |
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just as i was trying to wrap my head around oil recovery with such long DX loops........ |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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foaf
New Member
Posts:48
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| 26 Nov 2010 07:42 AM |
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Posted By geodean on 21 Nov 2010 10:46 AM
Posted By engineer on 21 Nov 2010 09:25 AM
Are we on the internet equivalent of Candid Camera here?
Is this thread premature, April First being quite a ways off?
No but we are always studying human nature. Very interesting responses. Consider the stakes. Suppose something like this could work, with some modifications. You would have local geothermal micro power generation everywhere. This is a potential multibillion dollar market, with huge social implications for independence. For you it is a joke. What I find fascinating is that eveyone looks at a design and immediately thinks why it can't work. Nobody makes the next step, to imagine what might be done to make it work. So, in all people tend to be a bunch of worthless whiners, and if anything counterproductive, in that they mock ideas, and discourage development. For example you can calculate the thermodynamic efficiency and say it can't work and laugh, or you can figure out ways to improve therodynamic efficiency and make a suggestion. For example we might bury an insulated tank underground and drive it's temperature down to -35F with a heat pump, while it still draws heat from the surrounding soil. That tank could be used as part of a condenser for the cycle 2 rerfrigerant in a binary cycle system. You may heat the cycle one refrigerant to 125F and then have potential theoretical thermodynamic efficiency of 27%. You only need to produce 2kW continuously to provide 48kWh a day. Of interest is that every subsequent post had the same attitude as yours. If anyone is laughing, it is me laughing at you and how totally worthless your collective contribution has been, which is really sad for a bunch of so called experts. It may not work, but the numbers start to get in the neigbourhood that with some invention and imagination, it might be made to work. I can see that I cannot expect you lot to providce any of that. |
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foaf
New Member
Posts:48
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| 26 Nov 2010 07:48 AM |
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Posted By foaf on 26 Nov 2010 07:42 AM
Posted By geodean on 21 Nov 2010 10:46 AM
Posted By engineer on 21 Nov 2010 09:25 AM
Are we on the internet equivalent of Candid Camera here?
Is this thread premature, April First being quite a ways off?
No but we are always studying human nature.
Very interesting responses.
Consider the stakes. Suppose something like this could work, with some modifications. You would have local geothermal micro power generation everywhere. This is a potential multibillion dollar market, with huge social implications for independence.
For you it is a joke.
What I find fascinating is that eveyone looks at a design and immediately thinks why it can't work. Nobody makes the next step, to imagine what might be done to make it work. So, in all people tend to be a bunch of worthless whiners, and if anything counterproductive, in that they mock ideas, and discourage development.
For example you can calculate the thermodynamic efficiency and say it can't work and laugh, or you can figure out ways to improve therodynamic efficiency and make a suggestion.
For example we might bury an insulated tank underground and drive it's temperature down to -35F with a heat pump, while it still draws heat from the surrounding soil. That tank could be used as part of a condenser for the cycle 2 rerfrigerant in a binary cycle system. You may heat the cycle one refrigerant to 125F and then have potential theoretical thermodynamic efficiency of 27%.
You only need to produce 2kW continuously to provide 48kWh a day.
Of interest is that every subsequent post had the same attitude as yours.
If anyone is laughing, it is me laughing at you and how totally worthless your collective contribution has been, which is really sad for a bunch of so called experts.
It may not work, but the numbers start to get in the neigbourhood that with some invention and imagination, it might be made to work.
I can see that I cannot expect you lot to provide any of that.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 26 Nov 2010 08:28 AM |
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I'm willing to stipulate (translation - too motivationally impaired and disdainful to bother looking it up) that the Carnot (theoretical maximum) efficiency of a heat engine operating between -35*F and 125*F is 27%.
That said, the unchanging sine qua non of all this is locating two thermal reservoirs with the requisite delta-T. It is a complete fallacy to contemplate first creating such a pair and then operating a heat engine between them. It is no different from driving to the top of a hill in hopes of recovering the invested energy and then some by coasting back down.
There are functioning geothermal power stations that do tap off high temperatures available relatively near the earth's surface in some places, but that is well-traveled ground well outside the scope of this site. While on the subject of scope, many of us here are subject matter experts in the matters herein discussed. It is quite a bit rich and well beyond the pale for you to waltz in here spouting hare-brained theory and then whinging bitterly when we fail to drink from the same pitcher of Kool-Aid.
Don't despair, though -I know some folks who may be able to help you out:
Be at Kings Cross Station, London, next 1 September. Board the train at Platform 9 3/4. The platform can be tricky to get to but you can't miss the train - it is scarlet red, coal-fired, steam powered. It leaves at 11:00 AM sharp. Disembark at Hogsmead. Climb the hill to Hogwarts School and inquire therein. Oh yes, you'll need a magic wand; they can help you with that as well.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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| 26 Nov 2010 08:32 AM |
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I don't think the responses were that interesting, though some were pretty clever. The thread followed a pretty typical course based on my experience - someone proposes a fundamentally unworkable idea for a perpetual motion machine, it is pointed out with varying degrees of sarcasm/helpfulness why it won't work, and the original poster decries people's lack of vision and goes off in a huff. The problem is that you aren't applying the Carnot efficiency correctly - it will take energy to create that low temperature reservoir, more energy than you will ever get back. It won't work, no matter what inventions you can come up with. You obviously have an innovative mind - keep looking, you might come up with something.
Edit: Curt beat me to the post and explained it better than I did as usual! |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 26 Nov 2010 10:21 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 26 Nov 2010 08:28 AM
.... It is quite a bit rich and well beyond the pale for you to waltz in here spouting hare-brained theory and then whinging bitterly when we fail to drink from the same pitcher of Kool-Aid.
.....
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 27 Nov 2010 06:48 PM |
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Posted By foaf on 26 Nov 2010 07:42 AM
What I find fascinating is that eveyone looks at a design and immediately thinks why
it can't work. Nobody makes the next step, to imagine what might be done to make
it work. So, in all people tend to be a bunch of worthless whiners, and if anything
counterproductive, in that they mock ideas, and discourage development.
For example you can calculate the thermodynamic efficiency and say it can't work
and laugh, or you can figure out ways to improve therodynamic efficiency and
make a suggestion.
I find the above comments to be highly offensive and supremely hypocritical.
I made specific recommendations for employing an existing technology that
would easily provide the thermodynamic efficiency improvements you desire.
However, you apparently have chosen to ignore my generous and helpful
suggestions and to treat them as a joke -- in spite of the multibillion dollar
market potential, with huge social implications for independence offered
by this emerging technology.
Therefore, I can only conclude that you are a surpassingly worthless
ultra-whiner lacking any trace of imagination, and indeed, an archtypical
example of the targets of your bitter criticism/projection. |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 28 Nov 2010 08:33 AM |
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Codswallop!
I think FOAF (which I now know stands for Full Of Angry Fulmination) has LOTS of imagination!
Someone somewhere could make serious money designing and implementing FOAF's -35 / +125 *F heat engine. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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