chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
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| 20 Jan 2011 03:00 PM |
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Hi All,
We have a Climate Master TT049 with HWG. Closed loop vertical. EWT now is (42 - 45) F. It is performing really good wtih our bills going down substantially. It rarely needs to go on second stage and the E-heat breakers are off. It has been really cold here in Pa too. I could not be more pleased.
Question: Does the power listed in the "Performance Data" tables in the product guide include water loop pumping?
I am asking since our power monitor (TED 5003) and the CM product guide book differ from each other.
Example:
Low stage; Book = 2.2 kw, TED = 2.4
High stage; Book = 3.3 kw, TED = 3.7
My pump station has Two UP-99's. I use only one pump in low, and two pumps in high with a relay I added switched from Y2. 9 GPM in low, 14 GPM in high.
It seems the power for the pumps may be missing from the table, but I am not sure... If this is the case, will the true calculated COP of the system go down if I add the pump losses in?
I tend to believe the TED data and it jives up with our utility meter.
Thanks for any input.
Chris |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 20 Jan 2011 03:42 PM |
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Posted By chrisbiker on 20 Jan 2011 03:00 PM
Question: Does the power listed in the "Performance Data" tables in the product guide include water loop pumping?
Not sure about those specific tables, but the standard ISO method for reporting COP does NOT include the power to push water through the external loop -- or air through the external ductwork. It does include (calculated) pump power correction to account for the power required to push water through the internal heat exchanger. ISO also includes a fan power correction -- that deducts power used to push air through the external ductwork. http://forum.geoexchange.org/geothermal-heat-pump-discussions/598-what-size-of-heat-pump-is.html#post35035 http://forum.geoexchange.org/geothermal-heat-pump-discussions/598-what-size-of-heat-pump-is.html#post35089 |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 20 Jan 2011 11:06 PM |
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The pumps likely account for the difference.
My experience has been that TED data is solid...but the comms are brittle. Data you get is trustworthy. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
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| 21 Jan 2011 12:17 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. Great info.
So, the energy needed for the water pumping and air flows external to the unit need to be added to get the total power required. The COP of the heating sytem needs to be reduced accordingly. For my sytem this equates to about 10% reduction in COP. Not a lot, but it adds up. I thought my system's COPs were in the 4 to 4.5 range, but are more like in the 3.6 to 4.1 range with the external pumping losses.
I guess depending on water pumps and blower model and duct static this figure could be significant. I would think this should be understood more clearly up-front when shopping systems and should be included in the proposals. I do not remember this when my system was quoted. I guess it's hard to include this in the manual as all systems are unique, but the contractor should know pumps and approx static during bidding and include for those losses.
Has anyone had these losses included in their proposed system performance calcs?
Thanks for any comments.
Chris |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 21 Jan 2011 02:08 PM |
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Posted By chrisbiker on 21 Jan 2011 12:17 PM
Has anyone had these losses included in their proposed system performance calcs?
Yes. Any geo proposal worth consideration should include something
similar to the standard "WaterFurnace Geolink Design Studio" printout.
This includes a projected average COP & EER -- and more importantly,
a detailed breakdown of estimated operating costs for heating, cooling,
and hot water generation (both DSH and resistance). |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 21 Jan 2011 08:51 PM |
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This is why we take the "Up to X COP" claims by manufacturers with a big grain of salt. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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dgbair
New Member
Posts:54
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| 21 Jan 2011 10:35 PM |
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Posted By chrisbiker on 20 Jan 2011 03:00 PM
My pump station has Two UP-99's. I use only one pump in low, and two pumps in high with a relay I added switched from Y2. 9 GPM in low, 14 GPM in high.
Chris, what kind of circuit are you using for the pump setup? Can you post more details or send me a PM? Thanks |
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chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
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| 21 Jan 2011 11:27 PM |
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I put a 24vac DPDT relay that turns on the 240V power to the 2nd pump. I wired the relay coil to Y2, so the second pump only runs when second stage is called for. I would rather have the pumps alternate, lead lag, but this was cheap and easy. You have to make sure you have proper flows with just the one pump. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 22 Jan 2011 08:55 AM |
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"Has anyone had these losses included in their proposed system performance calcs?"
We have mentioned before that some of the numbers are disingenuous or at least incomplete so we discuss average COP with our customers and explain what is not included. The software errs on the side of caution so a flow center is a wash at worst.
If you think this is unique to geo, don't forget my furnaces don't factor circulator electric consumption into their AFUE nor will I ever achieve 23mpg in my truck.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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rmichael
New Member
Posts:4
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| 22 Jan 2011 03:01 PM |
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It a marketing thing that all companies do. It would be nice if the tables elaborated on this and not make you dig so hard to find it out. My company does the same thing, the sales department promise the universe and leave it to us to explain to the customer they only get the world.
I was provided a report that included average seasonal COP (3.2) but it also included running strip heat. I original had the impression that with the strip heat disable I would have a COP of 4 to 5 not 3.5 to 4. I was talking with my installer a week ago about this and he didn't fully understand the finer points of the WF tables. I'm not complaining, I love my unit and it saving a lot of money. You got to love the marketing guys, do you remember the phrase "To cheap to meter"
For TED they are on it, The published specifications are +/- 2% FSR, but say it should operate at +/- 1%FSR. I ran it on our calibrator at work and it was +/- 0.04% between 0-15KW. I don't remember the numbers on power factor but they were good also. No idea on the long term drift or temperature coefficient. My service panel is located on a exterior wall with minimal or no insulator between it the outside world and the TED unit, so temperature swing could be significant.
I'm gealous, I wish I had the three unit TED. They upsold the load profiler so I didnt think I needed extra units, in my opinion the load profiler is a peice of junk. No problem with communication though. Overall TED is well woth the money.
Richard |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 22 Jan 2011 05:10 PM |
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Posted By rmichael on 22 Jan 2011 03:01 PM
It would be nice if the tables elaborated on this and not make you dig so hard to find it out. IMO, the WaterFurnace Specifications Manual contains more of this type of information than 99% of customers could possibly digest -- and WF makes the chore of digging it out as simple as possible. If they made it any simpler, they'd also have to make it less complete and less accurate. I suspect that CM, FHP, etc. supply similar info. "...as simple as possible -- but no simpler." -- Albert E. Other than bragging rights, I don't know why a typical customer would care about COP -- any more than loop Reynolds numbers, or the compression ratio of their Volvo. This stuff is only meaningful to trained geo designers -- and even the pros delegate most of the grut work to geo software. |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 22 Jan 2011 05:48 PM |
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Posted By Looby on 22 Jan 2011 05:10 PM
I don't know why a typical customer would care about COP -- any more than loop Reynolds numbers,
or the compression ratio of their Volvo. Now that I own a geothermal system, I was thinking along similar lines (i.e. I only care about the electric cost per month, not the COP.) If I understand this correctly, if no manufacturers include pumping cost, etc., comparing stated COP is comparing apples to apples (albeit high.) Stated COP reminds me of the OLD Joe Isuzu commercial - "Its top speed is 300 miles per hour," caption at bottom of screen "DOWNHILL IN A HURRICANE". |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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chrisbiker
New Member
Posts:97
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| 23 Jan 2011 12:57 PM |
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Sure if you are comparing a geo quote to a geo quote. If you are evaluating between air source, oil, propane, etc. the true system COP for each vs cost is what is needed to compare and evaluate ROI. I am sure there are likely hidden losses in all the systems, and it irks me that they kinda hide these necessary numbers. Not a big deal, just leaves a little bad taste after the fact.
Anyway, our bills are much lower now and our system is working very well. Very satisfied so far. Single digits last night and no back up needed. |
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rmichael
New Member
Posts:4
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| 24 Jan 2011 01:01 PM |
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Yes, I agree the average person doesn’t care, but most Geo owners aren’t average.
COP is directly proportional to savings and I definitely care about my money.
The difference between a COP 5 to a COP of 4 is a 25% increase in heating cost.
Kind of significant don’t you think?
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 24 Jan 2011 03:02 PM |
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Posted By rmichael on 24 Jan 2011 01:01 PM
The difference between a COP 5 to a COP of 4 is a 25% increase in heating cost.
No, the raw COPs specified according to ISO/AHRI requirements
are most emphatically NOT directly proportional to overall system
efficiency or savings in RealWorld™ operating costs.
All else being equal (which hasn't happened yet) COPs are useful
for gross comparisons of similar equipment (e.g., WF versus CM
2-stage, water-to-air heat pumps). OTOH they're nearly useless
for comparing ASHP to GSHP, or even dissimilar GSHP systems.
Overall system efficiency involves too many installation-specific
variables that are intentionally excluded from ISO/AHRI ratings.
The only good way to compare operating costs is by thorough
analysis of the systems under consideration -- in the specific
building and location where they'll be used. There are many
HVAC-design software packages available for this task. |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 25 Jan 2011 09:44 AM |
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Posted By rmichael on 24 Jan 2011 01:01 PM
Yes, I agree the average person doesn’t care, but most Geo owners aren’t average.
COP is directly proportional to savings and I definitely care about my money.
The difference between a COP 5 to a COP of 4 is a 25% increase in heating cost.
Kind of significant don’t you think?
I've tried to hammer this home more than once. Advertised COP's have little to do with average COPs which are the real measure of efficiency. If peak were most important then DX would be the obvious choice in most every application. When we figure DX requires a ground recovery, average COPs are more consistant with other products. The shopper who has a salesman suggest that their product is the most efficient needs to ask under what conditions and what is the average COP. I can tell you the answer from here: 3.5 to 4. j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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