klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 27 Jan 2011 08:14 AM |
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Third winter with a 4 ton Climatemaster Tranquility 27. NEw problem. Cold air from registers - drops to about 65 - then aux heat kicks in and takes it to about 83 or so and it goes back into the 1st stage and the whole process starts over again. I have never had the aux heat kick in before. I always had the impression that it would be seamless - that a person wouldn't notice when it came on. My tech looked at it and all numbers are fine. He said after long run times, the temperature in the loop drops too low and that I should just run emergency heat and let the loop sit and warm back up - impractical if I'm at work or asleep. He says that I have never had the problem before because it hasn't been this cold this consistenly since I've had the system. This is central INdiana and the temperature was 24 today when it happened. DOes all or any of this sound right? AM I doomed to a cold rest of the winter? Any thing to suggest to my technician? Thanks |
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Bruce
Basic Member
Posts:142
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| 27 Jan 2011 08:37 AM |
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I'm in central Indiana, too. No, it doesn't sound right. We've been colder longer in the last three years. it sounds like you should get a different tech out there.
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 27 Jan 2011 10:01 AM |
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Doesn't sound right to me.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 27 Jan 2011 11:56 AM |
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Did your technician supply you with the data he based that on?
Was he from the company that installed it?
Isn't this how it is supposed to work - if the loop can't keep up with demand (for example), then aux heat kicks in?
Since an exact location wasn't given it is hard to know for sure, but his tech is correct in that this winter is running colder than the last two.
Isn't it possible that a loop just doesn't have the capacity to supply demand over time, especially at peaks? |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 28 Jan 2011 09:54 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Jan 2011 11:56 AM
Isn't this how it is supposed to work - if the loop can't keep up with demand (for example), then aux heat kicks in?
Isn't it possible that a loop just doesn't have the capacity to supply demand over time, especially at peaks? The situation described is not how it is supposed to work: "NEw problem. Cold air from registers - drops to about 65 - then aux heat kicks in and takes it to about 83 or so and it goes back into the 1st stage and the whole process starts over again." What should happen is a system would try to reach or maintain setpoint in 1st stage. If it fails to do so (loses a fractional degree), 2nd stage would be activated (generally before a discernable temp loss). When 2nd stage can't keep up with demand 3rd (auxiliary) is activated all in a relatively seamless fashion. Some thermostats will switch to second or third stage based on time of cycle. If unit runs 5 min. in first it goes to second for 5 minutes then third..... The second way to activate auxiliary is often once thermostat is turned up 2 or so degrees above current house hold temp. It sounds like klat.....co's geo is not running at all, it is simply losing ground until delta t (temp difference) between t-stat set-point and house temp or elapsed time is such that aux kicks in. In no proper operational scenario should the house swing 13*. Loop problem may be possible, we need first to know why geo appears to be locking out. Since klat..co has had the system 2 previous winters and described this as a new problem, I'm inclined to believe loops are sized correctly, but a failing flow center or brine leak might cause symptoms. J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 30 Jan 2011 12:08 PM |
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My installer's tech will be out tomorrow. The described activity of my geo continues about once every 24 hours or so. When it happens, I shut the system down for about 5 minutes and turn it back on; it then works fine. The outside temperature has been above freezing yesterday and today with the sun shining. System was cycling on and off with more off than on, but the cold air symptoms just occured a few minutes ago. Are there other thoughts about what might be happening? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 01:51 PM |
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it then works fine. It works fine for how long? After you restart it's good for another 24 hours or so? Does register air work it's way down to 65F over that entire time? |
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klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 30 Jan 2011 02:09 PM |
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After restart it is good for another 24 hours. Air stays consistently around 85+/- at register. It drops all of a sudden. We notice that we are feeling cold. The air from register drops to low 70's until 2nd stage kicks in. It continues to drop to mid 60's until heat strips start. That gradually takes it to about mid 70's and it drops back to secound stage where it drops again - back and forth between 2nd and heat strips - unless I shut it down for a few minutes. Thanks for any ideas you may have before the tech arrives tomorrow. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 02:22 PM |
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What make and model thermostat is on that?
Do you first notice it (cold air blowing) at any particular time of the day - early morning, evening, just before bed, etc. or is it more like 24 hours from your last restart?
So, the tech from the first visit didn't leave his diagnostic numbers with you, did he?
Was he also from the same company as the install? |
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klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 30 Jan 2011 04:00 PM |
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It is a White Rodgers 1F95-1291. It says Emerson on the front at the bottom. It is usually around noon give or take an hour. I was at work during his visit and thought what he said originally made a bit of sense because it was during a very long cold streak. The geo had been running long periods of time. He was from the install company. Although I have to work tomorrow, too, I will leave a note for him asking for numbers. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 09:13 PM |
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It is usually around noon give or take an hour. Wow, that's awful regular. Do you set the temp back during the day or is someone at home all day? unless I shut it down for a few minutes... How do you shut it down? Do you turn it off via the thermostat or do you cut power to the heat pump with a switch or breaker or something? |
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klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 30 Jan 2011 09:41 PM |
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First of all forget what I said about every 24 hours because it just happened again about an hour ago. That was the first time it happened in the evening. I leave the temp the same 24 hours a day. I shut it off at the thermostat. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Jan 2011 09:47 PM |
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Posted By klatunickto on 30 Jan 2011 02:09 PM
After restart it is good for another 24 hours. Air stays consistently around 85+/- at register. It drops all of a sudden. We notice that we are feeling cold. The air from register drops to low 70's until 2nd stage kicks in. It continues to drop to mid 60's until heat strips start. That gradually takes it to about mid 70's and it drops back to secound stage where it drops again - back and forth between 2nd and heat strips - unless I shut it down for a few minutes. Thanks for any ideas you may have before the tech arrives tomorrow. This is a slightly different description of the heat pumps operation than your original post. Your heat pump is locking out. ICF you are in the way here. J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 09:51 PM |
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Posted By klatunickto on 30 Jan 2011 09:41 PM
First of all forget what I said about every 24 hours because it just happened again about an hour ago. That was the first time it happened in the evening.
Ain't that just how it works?  Your control board shows error codes via blinking LEDs. If you have the installation/operating manual, you could look at the LEDs on the control board and read the code it is probably throwing. When you turn it off you are doing a soft reset that allows the cycle to start over again. I suspect that only someone who can examine your HP and loop is going to be able to determine exactly what is happening at this point. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 09:55 PM |
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ICF you are in the way here. I don't see anyone preventing you from helping him. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Jan 2011 10:16 PM |
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I am asking questions specific to the problem. I service install these for a living.
The thermostat is not the problem, yet you ask what kind......
We can both ask questions that solicit replies, but I will have a purpose-direction to mine.
You will distract while you try to learn.
Get out of the way.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 30 Jan 2011 10:26 PM |
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I service install these for a living. Good for you. I've already stated elsewhere that you have terrifically valuable input and everyone should be glad to have your help. That being said, your last "assistance" on this subject was several days ago and it's sorta hard to see how my willingness to help gets in your way. Unless it "confuses" you. I don't want to do that. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Jan 2011 10:45 PM |
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If by several days ago you mean two, then perhaps you will also notice that's how long it took for my last question to be answered.
What is going on here is evident the why of it is the mystery.
Ewt and lwt are the first concern.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 30 Jan 2011 10:47 PM |
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Perhaps what you’re experiencing is explained here:
Extended Compressor Operation Monitoring - If the
compressor relay has been on for 4 continuous hours,
then the control will automatically turn off the compressor
relay and wait the short cycle protection time. All
appropriate safeties including the LP will be monitored
during the off time. If all operation is normal, and if the
compressor demand is still present, the control will turn
the compressor back on. Page 7:
http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/97B0003N12.pdf
My Tranq 27’s control board, about the same age of yours, turns the compressor off for 5 minutes after 4 continuos hours of run time. During this time the fan continue to turn at its regular speed. Supply air gets cool. I assume if the setpoint is missed and room cools off enough, aux heat turns on during this time. However, after five minutes, the compressor starts by itself, if there is still a call from tstat. I believe this applies to operation in cooling mode, as well.
The above feature seems to be discontinued in later models.
Regards,
Masoud
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klatunickto
New Member
Posts:16
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| 30 Jan 2011 10:55 PM |
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Yes, Joe, slightly different because I was actually on the scene to note what was happening -not having to listen to family describe it to me. If I am being locked out, would you still say That the temperature fluctuation once locked out is abnormal? There is still a good 10 degree difference when things are sour. SO in actuality, what my tech originally told me about the loop could well be true. I will have to deal with deteriorating performancce for the rest of this season?
I just read Masoud's reply. It sounds good except that I have never had this problem before until two weeks ago and I have had 24 plus hour runs before.
Thanks to all. |
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