Aux heat always on during first stage w/no thermostat call, split zoned system
Last Post 10 Mar 2011 12:14 PM by WF_Inc.. 11 Replies.
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KdbelvinUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2011 03:43 PM


My wife has been reading a lot on this forum, and said someone would probably be able to answer my question.  Our observation is that our heating bills have been higher than expected since installing geothermal in November 2010.  We've identified some issues with the desuperheat plumbing that our installer corrected, but energy usage is still tracking well above 1 kWh per heating degree day.  My wife swears the air supply registers have the faint but distinct smell of electric resistance heat, but we have never seen the thermostat call for 2nd stage, nor have we seen it show a flashing "+2" that would, if I understand correctly, be the thermostat showing it is calling for aux heat.

How can I verify if the aux heat is or is not running in a split, zoned, two stage heat pump system?

Setup:
WF Envision split system Model # NDZ038A1 (Three vertical 200' wells, closed loop)
WF Envision Air Handler Model # NAH036A1001R w/ 10 Kw Aux Heat
Aprilaire Model 6404 zone board w/ 2 zone dampers
2 White Rodgers 1F95-1277 thermostats

The thermostats, zone board and compressor unit in the basement appear wired correctly per the WR, Aprilaire and WF installalation manuals.  I haven't opened the air handler cabinet to verify those connections.

We have run the system with the zone board cover off and the WF compressor cabinet DIP switch SW 2-6 set to "off" to view the thermostat inputs to the control boards.

When we set the thermostat for one degree above ambient, I can see the Y1 and G LED's on the zone board illuminate, and the first LED on the WF compressor section illuminate.  This would seem to confirm the connection from the thermostat, through the zone board, through the air handler, to the compressor, is functioning correctly, at least in first stage heat.

When we set the thermostat for four or five degrees above ambient, the system does not appear to change, (Thermostat continues to show "system on," LEDs remain lit per above description on zone board and compressor section) even after everal minutes of operation.  I was expecting to see the thermostat call for 2nd stage operation at some point?  Our installer has the Aprilaire  zone board DIP switches ("# zones to stage" and "stage minutes") set for thermostat control.

as an aside, the zone board is mounted on insulated air ducting in the attic, less than 8" downstream from where the air exits the handler to go to the dampers.  The Aprilaire manual says not to do this due to potential for condensation.....is there any chance the proximity to the air handler can cause problems for the zone board (i.e EMI)...?

Our installer will be coming back out to do some further troubleshooting on what appeared to be a faulty TXV in the refrigerant loop, when in heating mode.  Could that have anything to do with not going into second stage on the compressor and/or aux heat coming on with no indication?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Very Respectfully,
Doug



 

waterpirateUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2011 06:22 PM
I am a poor low voltage wiring coach, but.... you should be able to diagnose wether the aux is on or not during a routine check of the systems operation. You should also be able to disconnect or dis arm the aux heat if you are there to monitor system with no real risk to answer your query about kwh usage.
Eric
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
acwizardUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2011 07:00 PM
What is SW2-5 set at
KdbelvinUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2011 07:10 PM
acwizard-

DIP Switch 2-5 is set to the OFF position, to disable stage 3 heat.  Page 22 of the manual identifies that on a spilt unit, switch 2-5 is not used, but I set it to OFF just in case.

Very Respectfully,
Doug
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07 Mar 2011 03:19 AM
After lookg at all of the installation manuals, I am wondering if both the thermostats and zone panel are 100% compatible. You actually want 3 stages of heat and emergency heat. The WR stats do not look like they give you stage 3, I believe that they only allow aux heat in emergency mode. The Aprilaire appears to have same issue. Would need to contact Mfg.to confirm. The Intellizone by WF shows 3 distinct heating outputs in conjunction with their thermostats.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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07 Mar 2011 07:27 AM
Easiest way to see weather aux coil is on is to either measure entering an leaving air temps if around 20* the coil is either running exclusively or not at all or clock the electric meter (aux. will spin it twice as fast as compressor).
joe
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KdbelvinUser is Offline
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07 Mar 2011 02:39 PM
Thanks so much, one and all. Wife writing here now (hubby left on travel for work). I tried the electric meter approach, which showed that the heat strips were not on (thanks, Joe). For what it's worth, I still think the heat in that zone smells (and feels) hot, or at least strange. I suspect an air flow restriction, but I really have no evidence at this point.

We went to investigate attic air handler and found that the two "halves" of the unit were not sealed (about a 3mm gap all the way around) and that there was a significant draw of unconditioned attic air into the airhandler whenever the blower ran. In addition, the installer never sealed around the suction line, the liquid line, etc. coming into the cabinet, so there are more places for air infiltration.

And acwizard, thank you for looking through the manuals...that's just nothing but nice. I have had concerns about the way the WR t-stat and the Aprilaire zone board communicate, but I guess WF doesn't make a zone board for the split, so that's what we have right now.

I'm waiting on a call back from my installer and trying to keep my faith in them doing the right thing...but I have digital photos of the stuff they did wrong, just in case.

Thanks again,
Kim (for Doug)
acwizardUser is Offline
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07 Mar 2011 06:37 PM
Checked with both Aprilaire and White Rodgers, the equipment you have out there should work if it is wired and programmed correctly. Verify that terminal W2 on thermostat is wired to W1 on Aprilaire. This should give you third stage electric heat.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2011 09:33 AM
Posted By Kdbelvin on 07 Mar 2011 02:39 PM

We went to investigate attic air handler and found that the two "halves" of the unit were not sealed (about a 3mm gap all the way around) and that there was a significant draw of unconditioned attic air into the airhandler whenever the blower ran. In addition, the installer never sealed around the suction line, the liquid line, etc. coming into the cabinet, so there are more places for air infiltration.

I'm waiting on a call back from my installer and trying to keep my faith in them doing the right thing...but I have digital photos of the stuff they did wrong, just in case.

Thanks again,
Kim (for Doug)


While these things suggest lack of attention to detail by your installer, they are common and hardly "smoking guns".
As energy codes are now requiring tighter ductwork, inspectors are finally able to ask for these little gapsto be plugged.

How did you perform the electric meter test?
j
Joe Hardin
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www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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KdbelvinUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2011 12:03 PM
Thanks, Joe. I know you're right--it's always good to hear a voice of reason. Installers are here replacing TXV now.

Electric meter test involved counting those little "watt-dots" on the digital meter over a set period of time with both units turned off at the breakers to get a baseline reading for our house, then turning on units at breakers (individually) and comparing usage under several different demand conditions. But that is moot now, since installer is here and just told me that the strip heat is actually physically disconnected at the air handler.

I remain optimistic about the TXV change. Installer has reported that operation already seems "smoother."

I also think I need to find another distraction. This stuff is killing me.
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10 Mar 2011 10:45 AM
Sounds like they are getting it taken care of for you.
Just curious on the meter test, well done.
J
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
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WF_Inc.User is Offline
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10 Mar 2011 12:14 PM
Mr. Belvin,

We apologize that we did not respond earlier, as we have just found your post. However, we are more than happy to look into your concerns if you still need our assistance. Could you please provide actual copies of your utility bills for the past two years, as well as the WaterFurnace Energy Analysis that was performed by your contractor at the time of installation? Also, could you please tell us what you used to heat and cool your home prior to the installation of your WaterFurnace?
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