Hello everyone,

I’m new to the forum and have a question regarding the warranty of my Water Furnace system.  If this topic has previously been discussed, I apologize….again, I’m new and a little stressed over this whole issue.

 

My wife and I built a new house in 2004 and a local dealer (NE Indiana) with “strong” ties to WF installed a 4 ton, closed loop Premier-E system.  The final statement for completed installation was dated 9/1/04 to be exact, making the unit a tic over 6 years and 7 months old.  At the time, we were told by the salesman the Premier-E system we chose was the top of the line.  Does anyone know if that is true?  The service tech we had out today (same dealer) said this system was “middle of the road” to “bottom of the line.”

 

In any case, here is a list of the issues I have had leading up to my current dilemma.  Upon my first filter (Dynamic air filter) change in the fall of 2004 the “status” lights at the bottom of the unit would not stop flashing in sequence (like a Christmas tree).  The dealer came out and replaced the “status” lights with a “used” unit he carried with him for testing, which seemed to fix the problem.

 

In the summer of 2009 I did not think the unit was cooling the house properly and I called the dealer to check the system, prior to the warranty running out (I thought).  I was then told their records indicated my system had never been serviced and they encouraged me to enter into a service contract, which I did not do.  The tech then came out and recharged the ground loop, stating the lines had expanded and the loop was low on pressure.  He also added 1 pound of R-410a because the system was “a little low” but he could NOT find a leak.  I was also told the service-call was 2 days past my warranty period and was therefore charged for the service.  I was certainly disappointed in this, but paid the bill anyway.  Again, I was encouraged to enter into a service contract, which I did not do.

 

This winter, my electric bills have been exceptionally high compared to previous winters.  I suspected the furnace but attributed it to what I thought was an exceptionally cold winter.  However, after receiving my March electric bill I suspected the furnace again.  The thermostat NEVER showed any errors, but often when I looked at the thermostat the auxiliary heat was functioning while in the “energy saving” mode.  I called the dealer earlier this week and the tech came out today (4/7).  After checking the system he determined the pressure in the refrigerant system to be less than half of what it should have been, which caused the system to run in “aux heat” mode.  He said the “low pressure safety switch” had also failed which should have shut the system down and indicated a warning, but never happened.  After adding 4 pounds of R-410a the leak was determined to be coming from the “coax heat exchanger.”  The tech was unable to give a price for this part but told my wife (I had to get back to the office) it “never fails” and he would have to go back to the office and work up a quote.

 

Our bill today was $200, which we paid, even though the unit is far from being fixed.  The tech said he expected the refrigerant he added to last no more than 2 months.  He then told the wife a heat exchanger would be $1500 to $2000 (guesstiment) and tried to talk her into replacing our system with a new one as this Premier-E has “almost reached its 10-year life expectancy.”  With a system that is not even 7 years old, I find this very discouraging!  Any thoughts or recommendations…..besides getting a 2^nd opinion?  Are the WF parts not warranted for 10 years?  Was the Premier-E the bottom line system in 2004?

 

Sorry this post is so long and thank you in advance for the help.  I will post more after I hear the quote from the dealer tomorrow.

 

CBox139

I'm intereted in how the tech determined the leak to be in the coax.
j

Joe,

I'm not exactly sure how he determined the leak to be in the heat exchanger. When I left to go back to work he and his trainee were using a "sniffer" to try and find the leak. At this point I can only assume it was found with this tool, but I will certainly ask when he calls today with the quote.

The remarks on the service reciept say, "high electric bills, found unit to be low on refrigerant, added 2lb (he told my wife he added 4lb and billed us for 2lb) R-410a, performed leak search, found leak in coax heat exchanger, low pressure switch failed, did not shut down unit, need to call back with quote."

Thanks for the response,
CBox139

Have them show you the leak, then get a second opinion.
J

Are the WF parts not warranted for 10 years?

Do you have a copy of the warranty you received with the unit? Either the WFI warranty or any representations from the dealer or installer?

The tech called on Friday with the estimate….$1754. He explained that the leak is “in the worst possible place.” He said it is at the bottom of the heat exchanger where the “water and refrigerant go through the exchange process” and it is the “most expensive repair on a geothermal unit.” He then began talking about replacing the unit with an entirely new WF system. My wife reminded me, when he was out on Thursday (4/7), he compared the unit to a common household appliance with a life expectancy of 7 to 10 years. So, when he began talking about a new unit I expressed a little frustration in terms of major component failure and the need for replacement of a system LESS than 7 years old! He then asked me who my builder was and began explaining that builders “typically go with the least expensive unit they can to cut costs.” Before he could finish (he gave my wife this same pitch on Thursday) I stopped him and informed him I dealt directly with HIS company through HIS salesman at the time of our build, completely bypassing our builder…..perhaps a mistake on my part.

Hybrid,

To answer your question, I have my contract from the dealer which states a 5 year warranty on parts AND labor through them. However, I also have the WF brochure on the Premier-E system which states the “STANDARD” warranty on parts is 10 years. When I advised the tech of this he told me the “standard” warranty was 5 years and the 10 year warranty was an upgrade. Again, I advised the brochure states STANDARD 10 year warranty on parts and he stated he would call WF and ask.

The tech continued to encourage me to talk with their salesman (different salesman than I dealt with the 1st time, he left for a different job) about a new system. He said the “common issue” with the Premier-E system is the compressor and his fear is replacing the heat exchanger and then the compressor goes out….which WF does not make anymore, according to the tech. I told him I would listen to the sales pitch, but again, told him I would need a written estimate detailing exactly what the $1754 would be doing. His response was, “Ok, but I don’t know why, it won’t be any different than what I already told you.”

A short time later the salesman called talking loud and fast. Typical for a salesman I guess, I really could not get a word in. I was able to ask him if the tech called WF reference the warranty and he did not give me a straight answer. He also stated the “standard warranty” was 5 years and the upgrade was 10…..BUT, if I go with a BRAND NEW system, the STANDARD warranty is NOW 10 years on parts AND labor. I advised him I would call WF myself if I had to and he encouraged me not to stating, “You’ll just run into a brick wall.” Another reason I posted on this site….hoping someone has already been through an experience like this and could assist me with the warranty question. Anyhow, we are meeting with the salesman on Monday…..2nd and 3rd opinions, here I come.

CBox139

Again, I suggest a second opinion on the problem. It may cost you a few hundred dollars, but you are headed towards a 4 or 5 figure decision.

When I advised the tech of this he told me the “standard” warranty was 5 years and the 10 year warranty was an upgrade.

I think you might both be right, in a way. The "standard" warranty is 10 years, but the optional (lesser) warranties can reduce the cost of the unit, if you follow this logic. In any case, you can see how the tech thinks about it. At this point, you need to actually see the paperwork on your particular installation before you can be certain of what your warranty rights are/were and what the next step might be.

From what you've said, it looks like your service call in "Summer, 2009" came in that period between 9/1/09 and the end of "Summer" about three weeks later, which is frustrating to say the least, but technically just outside of the 5 year period, is that correct?

I believe Premier was top of the line for WF in 2004. Envision series has since taken the top spot.

Warranty durations have lengthened lately in response to competitive pressures and Energy Star requirements.

The leaking coax may be at rear of unit, greatly increasing labor needed to replace it. It is something of a crap shoot to undertake a major repair on a middle-aged system, but it is a hallmark of geo that the equipment should outlast conventional airsource units.

That said, if a contractor's staff don't make you feel comfortable, don't do business with them. It should be a 5 minute call to WF with your model and serial number to determine warranty coverage. I find it troubling that the dealer would discourage you from making that call. WF will, rightfully, refer technical and commercial questions back to a dealer, but factory warranty coverage question has a simple yes / no answer.

As Joe has noted, there are nuances of a coax refigerant leak that would bear further exploration. If the leak is within the coax, it would leak into the water loop. I would expect that to shortly vaporlock the waterpump and / or take loops out of service, depending on geometry of the loop field. That in turn would lead to a system shutdown based on low water flow or temps out of bounds. A sniffer would not find that leak.

A refrigerant leak directly to atmosphere would be at the beginning or end of the coax where the refrigerant line is exposed. It may be accompanied by a bit of oil which will in turn pick up dirt. If accessible, the leak should be able to be confirmed using soapy bubbles.

Read the label on the unit - I'm curious as to the ratio of charge added to total system charge. A system won't trip on low pressure unless the charge is near totally exhausted. I also question the amount of refrigerant added - this bunch doesn't strike me as one willing to give discounts, so I'm suspicious of the claim of added 4#, but only charged for 2#. Was a charge scale in evidence, used to measure weight lost from refrigerant cylinder?

Obviously we are hearing just one point of view in this situation, but of the mirrors are many and the smoke thick, seek other opinions.

A Water Furnace EO48 is charged with 77 oz (4 lbs 13 oz) of refrigerant.  If four pounds of refrigerant had leaked out of the system it would not run very long before going into a "Low Pressure", or possibly a "Water Flow" lock out.

Within your Coax Heat Exchanger, refrigerant surrounds the water, making a leak where stated possible but not very likely. (IMHO)  If the Tech was able to find the source of the leak, ask him to show it to you.  If he can't show it to you, ask how he was able to pin-point the location.  I would remember the location, call another contractor and have them find the leak. Of course, do not tell them where the suspect site is!

Bergy

Thanks to all who have responded your thoughts and incite have been very helpful. Obviously, you folks understand the technical operation of the system much better than I, but I am starting to get a grasp on it. The thought of the leak begin in the heat exchanger, in my mind, is much like a vehicle with a blown head gasket. The combustion gas would leak into the coolant (causing obvious internal issues) but may not show a leak outside the engine. However, if the leak is in the exposed refrigerant line, the tech should be able to show it to me AND there may be oil accompanied with it. He never mentioned if the leak was internal or not, all he said was that it was located at the bottom of the heat exchanger.

Curt & Bergy,

Your knowledge was very helpful in allowing me to understand some things, so thank you. To answer your question about the scale, I really do not know. Shame on me for having to go back to work, but I did not get to witness the addition of the refrigerant. If this helps you guys at all, when I was able to be at the house and watch the techs get started, I observed the trainee attach the temp probe to the loop. I’m not sure which side of the loop he was reading, but the temp on the instrument indicated 46.9 degrees F. I asked if this was good and the senior tech told me the temp should have been much lower. He went on to explain that the unit has not been extracting heat out of the ground as it has solely been running on aux heat due to the low pressure in the refrigerant system. I also observed the trainee hook up the pressure gauges to the unit. There seemed to be some confusion between the two techs as they both reached in and loosened the pressure connections (I could hear pressure escape when they did this) and then look back at the gauges. The senior tech made a comment to the trainee that he did not understand what he was seeing and he recited the pressures (I never saw the gage pressure myself). The numbers he recited were “70 #’s on the inlet side” and “150 #’s on the outlet side.” Now, I will say that right after he stated this, the trainee reached in one more time and “re-seated” (trainee’s words) one of the fittings which must have indicated a different pressure. The senior tech then hurried to shut the unit off, almost like there was damage that could be occurring.

This is when they told me they were getting their refrigerant from their van and their leak detector. Before they headed to the van I asked the senior tech if the technology has changed much in the last 6 or 7 years and (shame on me) I asked him if this was still a good unit. He then gave me the explanation of the government regulation banning equipment running R-22 and the subsequent change to R-410a (which my unit has had from day one). He stated the “issue with R-410a systems is the increase (his words were “doubling”) of pressure that R-410a systems use to operate. He said my system should be running around 340 #’s of pressure and this increased pressure can lead to problems. This is when he explained the failure of the “low pressure switch” and that my unit SHOULD have shut down and indicated a problem on the thermostat, which never happened.

I guess one of the many issues (questions) I have after reading all of your posts is, what kind of damage could have occurred to the unit running it for the last 3 or 4….or more months with this low pressure. The tech sure was quick to shut the unit down when he noticed the pressure. Another issue I have is that I do not even know if they repaired or replaced the low pressure switch. The service receipt does not say that they did, so my assumption is that they did not, but I will ask tomorrow. It is warm in Indiana today and the furnace is not necessary, but if they did not replace the switch, how will I now if the unit is running with the right pressure and when it is not? All the tech told my wife and I was the refrigerant they added “may last a month or two, at the most.”

Hybrid,

To answer your question, the service in 2009 was on 8/11/09. I argued with the office personnel extensively at that time about the warranty expiration date. I was never given anything indicating the beginning/ending dates of service for their warranty. I was told the warranty expired 2 days prior to my call for service in August of 2009. My argument was a matter of principal and I felt the service should have been covered. I was told that recharging the ground loop and adding a pound of refrigerant would not have been covered under warranty even if I would have called in July when I first noticed a problem (house would not cool). The receipts and documentation I have are as follows: Billed for 95% completion of installation 6/30/04, paid 7/12/04. Billed for 100% completion of installation 9/1/04, paid 9/8/04. I forget who offered the suggestion to call WF with my model and serial numbers, but I plan to do that tomorrow as well!

Thanks again to all of you for your thoughts and information. If there are other questions you feel I should be asking, please feel free to throw them out to me.

CBox139

I was told the warranty expired 2 days prior to my call for service in August of 2009

They must have something indicating that the unit went into service some time between the date it was "95% complete" and "100% complete". Since they seem to want to get right down to technical details, I think you are within your rights to ask what those details are. How are they determining that your warranty expired two days prior to your request for service?

Your call to WFI may help you get some info on how the warranty was registered with them.

Posted By Bergy on 10 Apr 2011 12:52 PM
A Water Furnace EO48 is charged with 77 oz (4 lbs 13 oz) of refrigerant.  If four pounds of refrigerant had leaked out of the system it would not run very long before going into a "Low Pressure", or possibly a "Water Flow" lock out.

Within your Coax Heat Exchanger, refrigerant surrounds the water, making a leak where stated possible but not very likely. (IMHO)  If the Tech was able to find the source of the leak, ask him to show it to you.  If he can't show it to you, ask how he was able to pin-point the location.  I would remember the location, call another contractor and have them find the leak. Of course, do not tell them where the suspect site is!

Bergy

ssamet, I'm curious, when they charged the system, was the can upright (hose out of the top), or turned over?
Bergy's observation is a good one, but does not rule out a failed LP switch.
I'm not sure I agree with keeping the other findings secret. If the company you are working with is the kind I think they are, a good honest service company will be glad to offer different advice.
I'm curious as to why WF has not weighed in on this. Is there other history we are unaware of.
J

Guys,

I called WF this morning and met with my dealer’s sales rep tonight. I have so much I could write about, but it is late and this has been a long day. The sales rep brought my “file” with him tonight with many documents in it. My wife and I asked him MANY questions (3 hour meeting and venting session) but I specifically asked him how my “in service date” was determined. He showed me a document he had indicating the first activation (“fire up”) of the unit being 8/9/04. I asked him who would have been at my house to witness and observe this on that date and he did not have an answer as nothing was document on his form either. I informed him for future reference it may be beneficial for the builder or home owner to sign this document and provide a copy to the home owner….as I do not have this document.

I also asked the rep which party is responsible for registering the unit’s warranty with WF and he stated that they are. I mention this because when I called WF this morning I provided them with my serial # and asked the terms of warranty for my unit. I was informed the unit was purchased by my installing company on 6/4/04 and I was never registered as the owner (they showed the dealer as the owner). As Hybrid stated earlier, the installing company opted DOWN to a 5 yr from the standard 10 yr warranty. Therefore, the warranty through WF expired on 6/4/09. When I asked the WF person about the cost difference from the 5yr to 10yr warranty and I was told she did not have access to pricing. She did say that it varies “depending on the unit and dealer between a few hundred $ to a thousand $ or more.” I took this to mean that it is up to the dealer and what they want to charge….perhaps I’m wrong.

As many of you have already stated the coax heat exchanger is a rare part to fail. The WF person I spoke with also indicated the same. They noted the sensitivity of keeping the refrigerant system clean and free of dirt and debris as the heat exchanger is replaced. I was informed by WF contamination in the system could certainly lead to compressor failure. A new heat exchanger comes with a one year warranty from WF. My concern is replacing the HE and the compressor failing soon after. The WF rep indicated they have experienced “several compressor failures” on these units (reciprocating compressor) vs. the newer style scroll compressor. So, if I replace the HE and the compressor fails, how do I prove if the failure was due to happen from normal wear or if there was contamination in the system from the HE replacement? Seems to me WF or the dealer should be warranting the compressor for the next year also.

To answer something else we spoke of earlier (and someone already stated), the WF rep confirmed the Premier-E was “top of the line” in 2004 and it has now been replaced by the Envision system. For my wife and I at this point, it comes down to an issue of trust. How can I trust WF again to go with their new top of the line system when the one I have isn’t even 7 years old? I’m sure 6 or 7 years from now WF will have a NEW TOP OF THE LINE system and another sales rep could be giving me this same pitch. I really have not heard of other geothermal brand systems. I think living in NE Indiana (right down the road from WF HQ) has something to do with that. What are some other reputable systems out there? As I stated earlier, I’m all for 2nd and 3rd opinions at this point and opinions from other manufactures as well. Any brand specific that you guys like?

Joe,

This morning was my first contact with WF, ever. I thought I could and should handle this through my dealer but called WF due to logical posts on this thread. At this point of WF geo ownership, my wife and I are equally frustrated AND skeptical of the WF brand dependability. According to the WF rep, they still offer the buy down option to a 5 yr warranty. I find that troublesome with the current issue I have and the cost of these units.

Sorry if my post is scatter, I am certainly tired…..and frustrated. I thought I bought a “Cadillac” but it now feels like a “Yugo.” Thanks again for all the assistance.

CBox139

I took this to mean that it is up to the dealer and what they want to charge….perhaps I’m wrong

I think WFI expects the dealer to go over the warranty options with you at time of installation. I don't think they want it to be a unilateral decision on the part of the dealer.

How can I trust WF again to go with their new top of the line system when the one I have isn’t even 7 years old?

As a consumer, that might be frustrating, but there's not much you can do about it. It doesn't really change the product that you did buy, though. If you look at the Envision features, you can see some of the things they felt it necessary to change in order to improve the product. One example might be a scroll compressor. I am also sure that coax heat exchangers have been improved based on what they learned from putting those first units out there if you follow my drift. Not trying to make you crazy, but dirty water in ground loops or water that wasn't properly de-acidified may have contributed to the failure of heat exchangers, too.

Here's what I'd do at this point. I'd figure out how much the years of service you got out of your Premier-E unit cost you. Then, I'd consider how much the repairs were going to cost and how many more years you can reasonably expect the repairs to buy you considering the possibility of other major parts going out. If the dollars per year ratio is significantly less than the first 7 years, you might want to consider it If the ratio is more than the value you are already not too pleased with, then I would get a new unit. A new unit of nearly any reputable brand should last longer than what you got out of this one. Like 15-20. However, you can't really be upset if they don't go much beyond the warranty period without requiring service.

I'd consider WFI again if they give you a good enough deal on the new one to keep you as a customer. I wouldn't be so quick to use the same installer, though.

My sense is that this situation has seen excessive niggling and quibbling over warranty terms and conditions, bungled service calls, suspect diagnostics, etc.

The right thing here may be for all parties (OP, dealer, WF) each pony up 1/3 of what it would take to replace this system with the latest Envision system and a carefully articulated warranty.

Stonewalling serves no one well.

I still would not do anything prior to advice of second service rep. How do we know the coil leaks at all? Given the bumbling of the installation company I find any diagnosis suspect.
I am not of the opinion that anybody owes anything after a warranty has expired. Especially when I'm not privy to the conversation that was had when the unit was purchased........how do I know that the shorter warranty wasn't selected by the buyer......? Not saying that's the case here (it doesn't appear to be as warr. was so far off OP's radar until it was needed).
All buyers need to be aware of warranties at the time of purchase.
j

Thank you all for your comments. There have been several questions posted about the length of the warranty and the registration process. In order the clear up any confusion, it is the homeowner’s responsibility to register their equipment. However, some dealers will do this for their homeowners as a courtesy. If the homeowner is questioning which warranty he or she has, we direct them back to the contract they signed with their contractor. This equipment came standard with a 10 year warranty; however, to be competitive in today’s market we do offer other warranty options.

At this point the unit is almost two years beyond warranty coverage. Per our phone conversation, you indicated the possibility of contacting another contractor. We expressed our desire to assist in resolving this issue once you determined who you wanted to work with. Unfortunately, you have not contacted us to tell us who you are going to work with. If you have made this decision, please contact us so that we can move forward towards a resolution.

Update,

Sorry it has been a couple of days, but life happens and priorities change. My wife and I are expecting our 2nd child within the next two weeks. Therefore, the issue with my furnace is important, but NOT my top priority. That being said, I certainly appreciate the knowledge and information I have gained from the posts on Green Building Talk. Thanks again….

I have 2nd and 3rd opinions scheduled to look at my unit and diagnose the issue. As someone mentioned the other day, if we choose total replacement and stay with WF, we are looking at a 4 to 5 figure decision (that’s hard to swallow…). I feel a few hundred $ spent on these opinions is a wise investment at this point as I have lost all trust in my current dealer/installer.

As for WFI, I do appreciate their response and posting on this thread. I respect them for their efforts in trying to defend their reputation. Their posting on previous threads is one obvious reason I chose to post on this website. If this is Emily, whom I spoke with the other day, hello.

As with most items consumers purchase, I understand it is normally the consumer’s responsibility to register their warranty. However, most items we purchase on a daily basis are not 5 figure deals. If I were buying a brand new Cadillac from a Cadillac dealer, I wouldn’t expect to call General Motors to register my warranty. On top of that, as I stated earlier, my dealer informed me they are and were responsible for the registration with WF, which was not completed. The failure to register my unit with WF really has no bearing on the issue with the Premier-E unit I have. It is simply another factor in the lack of trust I now have with my “contractor”.

I also understand that my unit is NOW 1 year and 10 months beyond warranty expiration. However, I would venture to guess that units with 5 year warranties vs. units with “standard” 10 year warranties are built from the same parts. As I stated earlier, my unit showed signs of a leak within my warranty period. Unfortunately for me, my call to the dealer was 2 DAYS beyond THEIR warranty expiration date. Having issues within the warranty period or outside the warranty period does not change the fact that my unit may need replacement at LESS THAN 7 years old. I do respect the fact that WF has agreed to provide “special pricing” on a new unit if I choose to go that route, as per our conversation the other day. I also understand businesses cannot give product away and stay in business, but I am still skeptical what this “special pricing” will amount to. When we make our decision I will certainly be in touch with you.

After researching information on the internet and talking to numerous people over the last several days, my wife and I realize major component failure is NOT the norm with these systems. But the “error chain” my dealer has exhibited has yielded a lack of trust in them, WF and geo technology in general. If we are forced to purchase another unit with 7 years of purchasing the first one, how will this technology ever “save” us enough money to recoup 2 investments?

Thanks again for all the posts,

CBox139

Sorry to hear your bad luck, but I do also understand that they have to draw the line somewhere. One actually pays more for the 10 year warranty, and you can buy it down and get probably $1000 off when you go with 5 instead of 10 years. It is a simple business calculation and a statistical knowledge how much it is expected to cost you to cover a certain period of time. You can get a lifetime warranty on the compressor and the heatexchanger (for the original homeowner, they think you more likely to die or to sell the house than the heatpump is giving up) with Hydron, or you can get the same unit branded differently for about 2-3K cheaper. I think it is at least a good will for WF to offer you a discount on a replacement. Warranty is still honored without registration.