I have a 3000 sq.ft. house with propane hydronic heating and ducted AC. This March I had a geothermal system installed. It was a rush job in order to qualify for the rebate program ending in March. I told the designer of the system about the hydronics and how we wanted it as our auxillary heat. Also, that we have heavy domestic H/W needs with 6 teenagers. The contract states that all old HVAC will be removed. They installed a Tranquility 27 and it works beautifully. It provides 2 stage forced air heating, AC and prewarms domestic Hot water. I wanted a tankless water heater and it works off the old propane supply and they installed it. Everyone was in a rush and so far the boiler is still connected and they "have plans to design something" to provide hydronics in the absence of a boiler-they've been paid 100% and I was counting on good will to finish things off. Last night I was looking at NextEneregy's other products and notice they have a domestic unit (NextEnergy 3 Series) that provides 100% HVAC plus domestic H/W at 120F and 140F water for hydronics!! "What!! This is exactly what we needed--Why didn't they offer this to us??" It's so much better than the Tranquility 27, it makes me thing its obsolete and that perhaps Next Energy has a large, expensive to hold inventory of Tranquility's units that they're desperate to get rid of. I've had the system installed less than 30 days--the contract is not finished--what gives? I will not be satisfied until we get the right unit installed. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm going "to act"--I will not rest until I have satisfaction--but where do I start? HELP!!!

You are more than likely out of luck. Read your signed contract. Whatever is on that contract is binding between both parties. You would need to prove fraud or misrepresentation to have any legal position. There is nothing wrong with the Tranquility, it is a proven good piece of equipment.

Posted By acwizard on 24 Apr 2011 03:03 PM
You are more than likely out of luck. Read your signed contract. Whatever is on that contract is binding between both parties. You would need to prove fraud or misrepresentation to have any legal position. There is nothing wrong with the Tranquility, it is a proven good piece of equipment.

What's more Hybrid systems historically have had more problems than success. They are becoming more mainstream, but personally I'm not ready to jump on that band wagon.
j

I've failed to make myself clear. The Tranquility 27 is an excellent appliance--I agree. But in my situation, (existing forced air of sufficient volume, hydronic heating system heated by an old mid efficiency boiler, heavy user of domestic Hot Water) my NextEnergy dealer did a great dis-service to me in not recommending or even mentioning NextEnergy's newer "3 Series" unit that takes care of all heating needs without back-up and auxillary propane fuel and appliances.

I know all about contracts and the "bottom line"--I've given the contractor plenty of "wiggle-room" within the context of that contract. I'll be asking for some myself-- since they're not finished according to that same contract --but they've been fully paid. I'm not in an admirable negotiating position but I'm relying on good-will and reason to bring about a better conclusion to this geothermal installation. Being a contractor myself, it would be foolish of me to walk -away from a client that's asking reasonable and well-informed questions in reaction to a well-founded complaint. I'm sorry to observe that you apparently did not comprehending my post--that's my fault and I'm sorry--I've tried again.

Posted By joe.ami on 24 Apr 2011 03:40 PM
What's more Hybrid systems historically have had more problems than success. They are becoming more mainstream, but personally I'm not ready to jump on that band wagon.
j

Misunderstanding abounds.
I'm suggesting that These CM systems were unknown to your dealer as they are newer. I don't offer up my customers as alpha rats for new products and you may find yours doesn't either.
First generation 2 stage units went bad for most every manufacturer. I'm glad to say I never sold one.

Whatever other problems with your dealer my advice on the hybrid is the same.
j

My dealer was an expert in his field. He didn't install anymore, he evaluated houses and designed the systems. That occurred 6 weeks ago--not 6 months or 6 years--he had to have known about it, That being said, I'm no longer running on hot blood and adrenalin like I was this afternoon and I'm calmed down-it's not the end of the world--however, I'm going to look into it and see if I can get everyone on the same page. In a few weeks I'll be getting a $5,000 rebate cheque from the govt. (Canada) for installing a Geo thermal system. Perhaps that money should be spent on all geothermal water--no propane anywhere--and I wonder if it can be done.

Thanks for the help so far. I can keep people posted on developments if they wish. I'm "hooked" on geothermal products. It's like a dream come true and it's released me from always worrying about our excessive use of propane with our old fossil system. Thank heaven that's gone-(well--almost)

To "salvage" your situation, what is wrong with adding a water to water heatpump to your system, and tie it into your existing loop. The heat extraction should be the same, so your loop would be large enough. The same unit then could do your domestic water supply all year around, so you would not have to use your tankless.
But do not blame your designer, unless he specifically promised. I cherish someone who only goes as far as his knowledge. It took me a learning curve to get it right. Those hybrid systems can be complex, and he seemed to otherwise have built you a fine, efficient system. It took waterfurnace 5 years to get the synergy 3D right, and others are still playing catch up. I would be very conservative with a brand new designed unit which has not proven itself for a couple years.

I'm a WF guy but Tranq 27 is state-of-the-art as well.

I'm not sure I completely understand the problems here. I surmise there is a continuing need for water heating for space heating as well as a 2-3x typical domestic hot water demand.

A dedicated water-to-water geo unit with double wall and vented heat exchanger may be a good candidate for domestic hot water in this application owing to the high demand (six teenagers...yikes!)

WF's Synergy makes both warm air and hydronic hot water...CM probably has something similar.

Posted By engineer on 24 Apr 2011 11:24 PM
I'm a WF guy but Tranq 27 is state-of-the-art as well.

I'm not sure I completely understand the problems here. I surmise there is a continuing need for water heating for space heating as well as a 2-3x typical domestic hot water demand.

A dedicated water-to-water geo unit with double wall and vented heat exchanger may be a good candidate for domestic hot water in this application owing to the high demand (six teenagers...yikes!)

WF's Synergy makes both warm air and hydronic hot water...CM probably has something similar.

Of the major brands, only WF and Hydron (and their clones) have Hybrid units, CM does not. Given the high water usage, an additional W-W unit which could also be designed to provide some radiant heat would be my first thought.

FWIW, gondola, even a geo enthusiast and CM dealer like doc is not familiar with the product......
I became aware of it only in the last few weeks as CM offered a rebate for change outs of other hybrids (on their facebook site).
A 3 stage (2 compressor unit) is definately a wait and see for me. You can't hardly find mention of it at CM, I don't know specs or terms of rebate.
There are other less major brands that have been making this system......Hydro delta (I believe) invented the on demand HW with a WTA system and has been screwing them up for most of 20 years (hopefully research products will have better luck with them). Econar jumped in about the same time as WF and Hydron (I've no feedback on their performance). Both of these lables are under the RP "Geo Systems" handle now.

J

Posted By joe.ami on 25 Apr 2011 09:50 AM
FWIW, gondola, even a geo enthusiast and CM dealer like doc is not familiar with the product......
I became aware of it only in the last few weeks as CM offered a rebate for change outs of other hybrids (on their facebook site).

Joe, I would appreciate if you could point me to the hybrid model climatemaster makes! You are right, I am not familiar with that model! Just to confirm, as hybrid we define a packaged unit with an extra coil for hydronic heat, capable of generating large amount of hot water or switching over to forced air.

You can see it at the Next Energy web site and get bits and pcs on CMs facebook regarding the rebate.
It is akin to hunting sasquatch.
I hadn't heard of the high temp wtws til one was mentioned here, perhaps this is another CM decidedly lackluster product release or maybe NE has their own product and CM is offering rebates on something else.
j

Posted By joe.ami on 25 Apr 2011 11:07 AM
You can see it at the Next Energy web site and get bits and pcs on CMs facebook regarding the rebate.
It is akin to hunting sasquatch.
I hadn't heard of the high temp wtws til one was mentioned here, perhaps this is another CM decidedly lackluster product release or maybe NE has their own product and CM is offering rebates on something else.
j

Joe, may be I am not familiar with the product because it does not exists. Facebook: "ClimateMaster, Inc. is offering a rebate up to $900 to homeowners that replace their existing unit with a Tranquility Water-to-Water and Packaged/Split system combination. If the purchased combination is up to 7.5 tons and replaces a competitor’s triple-function system, the rebate given will be $750. If the system capacity is 8 tons or more the customer will be eligible for a $900 rebate." They are talking about 2 units, one a Tranquility W-W PLUS either a packaged or a split unit. They are talking SYSTEM! The only hybrid HP on the NextEnergy web site (3 Series) does not appear to be made by climatemaster, nor do they claim it is.

The NextEnergy 3 Series appears to be a rebranded HydroTemp product, not ClimateMaster. The IOM literature on their website shows diagrams with HydroTemp on the eqpt. HydroTemp has been making the hybrid system for some time.

Hmmm, see what you mean had only glossed and got my wires crossed.
If 3 series is a proprietary model from NE I would avoid it gondola.
j

Posted By gondola5 on 24 Apr 2011 02:09 PM
  ... They installed a Tranquility 27 and it works beautifully.    ... Last night I was looking at NextEneregy's other products and notice they have a domestic unit (NextEnergy 3 Series) that provides 100% HVAC plus domestic H/W at 120F and 140F water for hydronics!! "What!! This is exactly what we needed--Why didn't they offer this to us??"   ... I will not be satisfied until we get the right unit installed. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm going "to act"--I will not rest until I have satisfaction--but where do I start? HELP!!!

So what you basically saying is you brought a new car, drove it off the dealers lot and a few weeks later you see a shinier car and you like even better and now want that one instead?

That's the basic Analogy I see here. I'm willing to wager there is a considerable price difference between the two units. Also HVAC units are not like cars, you can hardly expect the manufacture / distributor to take a car back with dings in it. But that exactly what your asking them to do, the contractor drilled holes in the unit to secure the duct work with to it and installed a electrical box to it.  How do you expect the distributor to resell a damaged unit?  And if they can't resell it, they are not going to give the contractor the money back for the unit.  And the contract isn't going to eat the cost cause you now see a shinier model. I believe you being completely unrealistic in your expectations. Unless you want to kick out more money to buy and install the NextEnergy 3 Series, and either put the disconnected Tranquility 27 in the basement corner or try to sell it on Ebay, I don't see this happening.

So you basic argument here is the NextEnergy 3 will fits your needs better, why wasn't it offered to you. Lets look at the car analogy for a moment. The sales person on the car lot shows you a car and it fits all of your needs you specify you but it, the kids pile in, you drive it around for a few weeks, rack up some miles, scratch the paint a little. Now you see the Hybrid car, that fits you needs, but also gets much better gas mileage. Now your demanding the dealer take this Piece of SH-- he sold you back and give you the hybrid car instead.  After all you did tell him you wanted the best gas mileage car and he didn't tell you about the hybrid. This is how I see your position. You signed a contract to buy a car and now you want to void the contract purchase and buy a different car. Unless you contract specifically started that the dealer will sell you the best gas mileage car they had available at the time, I don't see this getting any traction in court.
        

Hey--the new car analogy is a bit patronizing don't ya think? I understand the issues. I withdraw the question--it has little to do with Geothermal and more to do with haste and a contract that does not necessarily have all its' bases covered.

I think it's fair to say "all the needs" haven't been met yet. How they were supposed to be is unclear to me.
j