Tyler23
New Member
Posts:24
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| 06 May 2011 03:34 PM |
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Hi –
We live in SW Washington just outside of Portland, OR and are getting bids for a heat pump system. We had ruled out geothermal initially because of the cost difference, but realize that it is close to or on-par with air source with the current rebates. I was hoping for some feedback from the experts here. I’ll lay out the details below.
House is 4,307 sq ft, 2 story, built in 1968. Windows need to be replaced and will be down the road. There is no duct work at all as home is heated via wall heaters and cable ceiling heat. So the bids below include the installation of all ductwork.
Company #1: in business 18 years, claim to have been doing geo since 1997 with over 40 installs; four this year. Has a solid Angie’s List rating (whatever that’s worth).
Manual J via GeoLink: 73,342 Btuh heating, 46,373 Btuh cooling (hopefully I am representing this correctly).
Air Source
2 system, 14 SEER Goodman: one 4 ton (2-stage; 15kw backup); one 2 ton (single stage; 10kw backup)
3 zones total
Variable Speed air handlers
All ductwork
10 yr parts/labor warranty
Total Bid after taxes, local utility rebate ($750): $25,196
Geothermal
Waterfurnace 072 6 Ton
3 zones
3,600’ horizontal closed-loop field
Humidifier ($890)
All ductwork
10 yr parts/labor warranty (accepts Waterfunace labor allowance as payment in full for replacing defective part, not service call)
Total Bid after taxes, local utility rebate ($2,000), fed tax credit (30%): $25,026
Company #2: in business for decades, doing geo for 21 years with “thousands of installs”. This is THE geo installer for the area. Seems to know his stuff well. He is working the Manual J now and will have a formal quote for us next week. But he thinks the below is very close (he broke out each charge, the other company did not).
Geothermal
Waterfurnace 072 6 Ton ($13,000)
3 zones ($2,250)
4,800’ horizontal closed-loop field ($11,200)
Humidifier ($1,500)
Adding holding tank
All ductwork ($14,500)
10 yr parts/labor warranty (he suggested this is a “bumper-to-bumper” warranty)
Total Bid after taxes, local utility rebate ($2,000), fed tax credit (30%): $30,984
Both companies are proposing the same number vents and returns as far as I can tell. The two differences between the geo bids are: 1) the loop field: Comp #1 is 600’/ton, #2 is 800’/ton; and 2) Comp #2 will bore under our yard rather than trench leaving less mess. While the latter is a “nice to have”, the loop field is really the big difference here. While I would like to go with the second company as they are more experienced and offering a bigger loop field, I am not sure it is worth the $6,000 (24% more).
Does anyone have any opinions on this? Overall, we’re thrilled that geo is on the table for us and we’re definitely leaning that way. But as this is a very big outlay for us, we need to consider it carefully. We will be getting one more bid for an air source unit so we can compare that as well.
Thanks much,
Tyler |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 06 May 2011 03:56 PM |
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You might ask how many feet of trench and pipe they are going to use in the loops - this makes a difference. Also how deep it will be.
I'd only take air source if it were considerably less $ than geo. You might find geo hydronic heat cheaper than adding ducts. Also insulate better and then undersize the geo with the knowledge that it will be just right when you get new windows. |
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Tyler23
New Member
Posts:24
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| 06 May 2011 05:26 PM |
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Thanks Jon. The loop field size is the big difference: 3,600' vs 4,800'. I believe both plan on a depth of 4 - 5'. And we want to go with a central system so we have both heating and cooling. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 06 May 2011 10:12 PM |
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Feet of trench or feet of pipe? |
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Tyler23
New Member
Posts:24
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| 06 May 2011 10:58 PM |
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First company is "Loop field, 3,600' piping through 6 trenches 120' long, 10ft spacing; Header piping to field, 6 drop manifold". They were originally planning to do slinky pipe but I requested straight. While it didn't change the price, I am not sure if/how it changes what I just quoted. I don't have the details yet on the second bid. |
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HHH
New Member
Posts:81
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| 07 May 2011 02:01 AM |
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We are a dealer that is in SW Washington. We sell both ClimateMaster and Hydron. If you are interested give a ring 360-904-0940 or email: [email protected] |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 07 May 2011 08:54 AM |
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So the loop field is 720'. If you think there is a payback in it, you might find that company #1 is quite willing to bump that up for a minimal cost increase.
You don't like slinky layouts? I understand that most installers find it to be the best price/performance.
You might do a search for discussion about the challenges that zones create. |
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Tyler23
New Member
Posts:24
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| 07 May 2011 12:24 PM |
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Yes, I suppose the trench size- 720' - is with slinky. I'm considering asking them to bump up the field size, but I won't have the formal quote from the second company until mid next week. And I don't, personally, have issue with slinky, but it seems like straight is preferable from what I've read. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 07 May 2011 01:38 PM |
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Posted By Tyler23 on 07 May 2011 12:24 PM
And I don't, personally, have issue with slinky, but it seems like straight is preferable from what I've read.
I guess is depends on who is doing the job. slinky is the only type of horizontal loops that we do |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 07 May 2011 02:06 PM |
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Does anyone have any opinions on this? Overall, we’re thrilled that geo is on the table for us and we’re definitely leaning that way. But as this is a very big outlay for us, we need to consider it carefully. We will be getting one more bid for an air source unit so we can compare that as well. You need to get more bids, particularly on quality air-source units. I would be very surprised if geo would be better for you here. You are in perfect territory for air source heat pumps and it looks like the cost on that one you have is jacked up to compare with the geo. Get a bid from another installer that does Daikin high-efficiency heat pumps and one from an installer that does Ductless Mini-split systems. And some more bids from regular heat pump contractors. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 07 May 2011 06:35 PM |
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For whatever reason straight pipe ground loops call for more total feet of pipe.
Minimum EWT is the thing to watch, it really doesn't matter how one maintains that.
I also agree that envelope improvements make more sense first. Get someone to indicate replacement windows on their load calcs and see if it doesn't change equipment size.At the very least, you might limp a year or two on a little extra aux. heat vs buying tonnage you don't need.....particularly if you are breaking into 3 zones.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Tyler23
New Member
Posts:24
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| 07 May 2011 07:48 PM |
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Thanks for the feedback all. We do need to get another bid (at least) for an air source HP. While I appreciate the merits of the ductless HP's, the wife won't have it. And Joe, I am requesting that the calcs are done assuming we improve insulation and replace windows; I've made it clear I do not want to be oversizing this. |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 08 May 2011 09:04 AM |
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Tyler,
if designed correctly, slinkies perform as well as straight pipe. You need to be careful about insisting on certain designs, which your contractor must guarantee. In case of underperformance they will be finger pointing back to you. Best to let an experienced contractor do his job. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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junkhound
New Member
Posts:44
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| 08 May 2011 10:06 AM |
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Totally different opinion, but if you are at all 'handy' for $30K you can buy everything you need and a used backhoe and the rest of the tools you need, you will then have the knowledge and tools the rest of your life and never have to worry about finding anyone to maintain your system.
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 08 May 2011 10:07 AM |
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While I appreciate the merits of the ductless HP's, the wife won't have it. That is a common first reaction. With some exploration of the merits and the widespread use in Europe, many people change their minds quite dramatically. I've found that the most effective tool in this regard is pictures of beautiful homes with the ductless minis in them. We do need to get another bid (at least) for an air source HP In this environment, you need to get on the order of 5 bids to see a reasonable one. Try doing a little footwork and getting to a smaller shop instead of the big advertisers. If you want to save $10,000 it might be worth it to go to a local homeshow and catch some HVAC contractors there. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 08 May 2011 10:33 AM |
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While I appreciate the merits of the ductless HP's, the wife won't have it. I forgot to ask if you had looked at the fully concealed (ceiling mount) units? |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 08 May 2011 10:38 AM |
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Posted By junkhound on 08 May 2011 10:06 AM
Totally different opinion, but if you are at all 'handy' for $30K you can buy everything you need and a used backhoe and the rest of the tools you need, you will then have the knowledge and tools the rest of your life and never have to worry about finding anyone to maintain your system.
Handy + $30k + backhoe + tools = knowledge? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 08 May 2011 10:40 AM |
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Posted By Tyler23 on 07 May 2011 07:48 PM
...the wife won't have it.
Same here. We don't even think it looks good in the school cafeteria. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 08 May 2011 04:15 PM |
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Handy + $30k + backhoe + tools = knowledge? No. I think he's saying Handy + $30K + IQ = backhoe + tools + ground source system + ability to maintain it yourself. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 08 May 2011 05:10 PM |
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I thought he said $30K IS handy.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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