Quote from morecode on 9/19/2011:

"Bill, I visited your welserver site and saw the pictures above but I'm still a little confused on hooking up my wattnode meter to measure my geo system. I want to get my welserver up this coming weekend. I bought the Wattnode meter with the P3 option and I understand the ct's, but the hooking up the power for the device is a little confusing. It says I should choose a 5-20 amp circuit to power, yet in the diagram it shows the ct's on the same wire as the input side which in my case is 2 wire, 70 amp breaker for the Climatemaster WTA heatpump. Do I just need to make sure it's on the same "phase" or should I actually attach it to the 70 amp breaker?"

"Can you clarify this?"

"Also I would be interested in your assistance with the welserver computations to use just one of the P3 circuits to measure 240v, as I saw your post on this subject in another thread.... that way I could monitor the well water pump and the circ pumps separately with the other p2, p3 lines. My climatemaster uses 6-2 wire and the grufundos pumps use 14-2 and my well pump uses 12-2 (all 240 volts). Do I understand I can measure (accurately) 3 240v circuits with the P3 option???"

"Your wisdom and experience is apprecitated!"

Mike

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Mike, I started a new thread for you here so as to not take the previous thread off course.

If you have the WattNode with the P3 option, you will still use the Single-Phase Three-Wire (Mid-Point Neutral) illustration on page 9 of the instruction manual.

One CT is installed on 1 of the two #6 wires going to your ClimateMaster GSHP.  Another CT is installed on 1 of the two #14 wires going to you Grundfos pump.  The 3rd CT is installed on 1 of the two #12 wires going to your well pump.  I don't know if it makes a difference which 'side' of the 3 devices the CT is installed on.  You'll have to just try it out, or call WattNode customer service.

You need to direct connect power on the right side of the WattNode just like it's labeled.  Find any double pole 15 Amp breaker and connect each side to the poles of the breaker.  Also connect Neutral to the Neutral bus as shown.  Use #14 wire and no smaller.  I used stranded to make it easier to work with.  If you don't have a 15 Amp breaker to connect to, then choose a 20 Amp breaker.  Now you'll have to use #12 wire.  Don't connect to any larger breaker size - you'll otherwise have to use correspondingly larger wire (i.e. #10 for a 30 Amp breaker, for which I doubt the WattNode power connections will accommodate #10 wire).   And don't cheat here - #14 for 15 Amp breaker or #12 for 20 Amp breaker.

Just to be sure: do not connect the WattNode to the 70 Amp breaker other than slipping a CT around one of the wires.  You will create a fire hazzard otherwise.

I'd use the 15 Amp breaker that your Grundfos pump is connected to for your power supply to the WattNode.

Yes, you're correct.  As long as a 240 VAC circuit does not use a neutral connection, you can accurately measure three '240 VAC circuits' with the P3 option.  In your coase, you've indicated that all 3 of your devices you want to measure do not have neutral connections.  Assuming this really is the case, then yes, you're correct.

BTW, I'm not an electrician, so be cautious with my comments.  If you don't have a good amount of experience doing this kind of stuff, I'd recommend you hire an electrician.  At minimum I'd call WattNode technical support and review your plan with them.  And I'd be very cautious using comments from a web forum as your basis for doing this kind of wiring.

Good luck.

BTW, what's you're WEL number?

Best regards,

Bill

Thanks bill. I originally only wanted to measure the GSHP and ordered the wattnode based upon Phil's recommendation. John at Continental Control Systems sent me 2 70 amp ct's, and the WNB-3Y-208-(P3-300 hz) options. He indicated I should use both ct's to measure each side of the 6-2, and refered me to the manual. I saw your post and others who were saying the p3 option was being used with the wel to measure 3 separate circuits so I thought "outside the box" and decided if that were possible, then I would want to measure .... this, this and this... Thanks for the power options detail, I got it and I will also verify it with my electrican this week as he is due for an onsite visit at my current project. I wired the cottage and even set the meter so I'm "intimate" with the panel and every foot of wire including the low voltage smarthouse (HAL) system I installed. My wel number is: 0561 I hope to get online this weekend when I return home. I'm a builder/developer and usually stay on site M-F with the projects I fund. At the cottage (4400 sf) is where I challenge my intellectual and phyical ability to take my "pet project" to it's limit. I look forward to your assitance as I add the goodies to my system. Mike

Posted By morecode on 20 Sep 2011 07:42 AM
Thanks bill. I originally only wanted to measure the GSHP and ordered the wattnode based upon Phil's recommendation. John at Continental Control Systems sent me 2 70 amp ct's, and the WNB-3Y-208-(P3-300 hz) options. He indicated I should use both ct's to measure each side of the 6-2, and refered me to the manual. I saw your post and others who were saying the p3 option was being used with the wel to measure 3 separate circuits so I thought "outside the box" and decided if that were possible, then I would want to measure .... this, this and this... Thanks for the power options detail, I got it and I will also verify it with my electrican this week as he is due for an onsite visit at my current project. I wired the cottage and even set the meter so I'm "intimate" with the panel and every foot of wire including the low voltage smarthouse (HAL) system I installed. My wel number is: 0561 I hope to get online this weekend when I return home. I'm a builder/developer and usually stay on site M-F with the projects I fund. At the cottage (4400 sf) is where I challenge my intellectual and phyical ability to take my "pet project" to it's limit. I look forward to your assitance as I add the goodies to my system. Mike

I'm not sure I understand the guidance you received from Continental Control Systems, as it's confusing to me why they'd send to you two 70 A CTs with a P3 option WattNode.  There must be more to the situation - their customer support is very good.

I think you realize you need a different set of CTs.  You need 1 of your two 70 A CTs for the GSHP, another different sized CT for your Grundfos pump(s), and a 3rd CT for your well pump.  Since you don't have this currently, and if you can't get them from CCS in time for this weekend, in order to still have a good accomplishment this weekend, I recommend running all 3 wires from the same side of the 240 VAC circuits through the 70 A CT.  You'll have one CT connected to the WattNode (with Phase B and C CT connections shorted), and you'll have the WN's power connections connected to any 15 A breaker.  This will allow you to measure all power being consumed associated with your GSHP.

Later, you can break out the three devices separatedly, once you have the appropriately sized CTs.

I'd encourage you to rethink your measuring scheme, BTW.  I'm not sure there's a significant added value measuring the power draw for the Grundfos pumps.  They're tiny, 1/6 hp, 385 W pumps that are going to be a constant power draw when running, and will only be running when the GSHP is running.  I think measuring them separately, and then adding them together via the WEL, is overkill.  Plus, if you ever want to verify your EER and COP to what ClimateMaster publishes, you'll most likely want to include the Grundfos power as part of the total GSHP power draw, as I'm pretty sure ClimateMaster does this.  I know WaterFurnace does.

Indeed in my case I assume a constant 385 W per Grundfos pump, and add this in as an offset to my GSHP power measurement.  I think this is plenty accurate.

If you decide to measure the combined power of the GSHP and the Grundfos pump, then you've got another 240 VAC 'channel' available to measure something else, noting you're using a WN P3 option.  Note again that it's got to be a non-neutral 240 VAC device (i.e. electric oven).

Noting now your electrical skills, I think you realize that you have another, smaller wire option for hooking up the WattNode to supply power.  You can use #16 or #18 wire, connected to a 15 A breaker, with appropriately sized in-line fuses.

I've successfully used the WEL now for 4 years to monitor my GSHP units.  I've been able to anticipate well in advance of compressor damage developing leaks in two evap coils, and have been able to fine tune the GSHPs for optimum performance.  I'm not aware of any energy savings monitoring product that offers more 'bang for the buck.'  Feel free to look at my examples, at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 , for ideas.  Most of the long term charts (13 months) are now populated for the full time period.

Good luck!

Best regards,

Bill

Thanks for the advice Bill... Just arrived at he cottage (Sat evening) so I don't know how much I will be able to accomplish. We have several deadlines approaching this week so I had to stay in the city 6 days straight this week. I have rethought the measurement of the GSHP and agree with you...., it will not be worth it to separate the pumps out for measurement. I really just wanted to know if they were not operating, as the contact relay for them is on the climatemaster board. The 6-2 powers the board, and the board/relay's power the pumps. They will mimic the compressor, which will shut down if the flow rate (ie pumps not working) drops below 2.4 gpm I think...

I could measure the well pump, that seems to kick on alot and would be nice to see what percentage of our bill it consumes. The hot water heater is a powervent propane model, (120v), not sure what that would tell me... if I monitored that. I don't have the Desuperheater hooked up yet as I need to install a second tank for that and don't want to take the heat from the house in the winter. I thought I do that in the spring.

You thoughts on how to verify the pump failure (ie on/off) and how to log when the hot water heater (powervent) is running --- like how many hours, how often during the day, etc....

Posted By morecode on 24 Sep 2011 09:27 PM
... the pumps ... I really just wanted to know if they were not operating, as the contact relay for them is on the climatemaster board. The 6-2 powers the board, and the board/relay's power the pumps. They will mimic the compressor, which will shut down if the flow rate (ie pumps not working) drops below 2.4 gpm I think...

I could measure the well pump, that seems to kick on alot and would be nice to see what percentage of our bill it consumes. The hot water heater is a powervent propane model, (120v), not sure what that would tell me... if I monitored that. ...

You thoughts on how to verify the pump failure (ie on/off) and how to log when the hot water heater (powervent) is running --- like how many hours, how often during the day, etc....

Your ClimateMaster GSHP is configured similarly to my WaterFurnace.  My GSHP likewise has a 6-2 circuit to it, with the pumps connected to the GSHP via a relay in the GSHP.  I think it's #14 2-wire 240 VAC supply to the pumps, fused inside the GSHP.

My thoughts are:

If you want to monitor GSHP pump failure, this is easy: use WEL offered current sensors.  Slip a wire going to/from the GSHP pump through the sensor, and connect the low voltage wires to a WEL On/Off run monitor channel.  Do this for each GSHP pump you may have.  This gives you on/off sensing to the WEL of your GSHP pump(s) using inexpensive current sensing versus expensive WattNode measuring.

I think the hot water heater is pretty easy too, in this case simply requiring a 1-wire cable connected temp sensor.  Mount the sensor on the water heaters flue, close enough to the heater such that the temperature measured is much higher when the heater is on than when the heater is off.  In the WEL, set up a comparison, and accumulate the time when above the comparison.  This sounds more complicated than it really is - basically you know the amount of time the heater is on based on measuring the flue temperature. 

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Billl

Thanks Bill, this sounds simple and straight forward. I'll order a couple of those current sensors from Phil this week and I already have some of the stainless steel temp sensors. I did not get anything done today (Sunday) as it was family day. Guess I will have to try next weekend and read up this week on the wel unit.

Take a look at my system diagram at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043, where the gas-fired HWH is, and you'll see right below it 3 things: the on/off status of the gas-fired HWH, how much time the HWH was consuming gas today, and how much time it has consumed gas this month.  This is all done by simply comparing the flue temperature to a threshold.  In my case, I have the threshold set at 51°C.  You don't need a stainless steel sensor since there's not water involved.  I just zip tied a DS sensor direct to the flue.

Best regards,

Bill

Ok Bill, I'm online....WEL 0561. Still getting the sensors hooked up, but I have a question regarding the Wattnode computation. If I'm measuring only one side on Pulse 1, don't I have to multiply it by 2 to get the accurate KWH... What is the unit recording now... time or KWH? I have the value just sitting on the page right now, but not sure what the unit of measure is...

I like the way you built the boxes to hold the KWH, run times, etc... is that a table or just a drawn box with the placement in the appropriate place??? I'm not going to the city today as the wife is in Texas for a plant inspection and I'm playing Mr. Mom.... I hope to have more sensors on line before I have to pick up the boy... and I have tomorrow to finish building the graphs and etc...

Thanks again for the assistance with this....

Ok, thought I'd better get back to this tread and close it out with RESULTS!!!!

RECAP: I put one "leg" of my 2-wire through the CT on the 70 AMP breaker, effective measuring 1/2 of the watts being used. I then set the welserver scale factor to read 150hz-70amp and multiplied it by 2. I put that value in the scale factor pulse counter and it is measuring the consumption of pwr used by the GSHP.

I then put a constant value in to represent MI electric rate for kwh (.12) and now I now how much is uses and how much it cost.

The temp sensors are in and I'm looking for places to put the left over sensors to increase my data collection. I have enabled port forwarding, so I can work on my graphs and update the graphic as I have time remotely.

I'm going to use your method Bill to measure the hot water heater (propane) run time based upon temp comparison. I also want to monitor (graph) when it runs in stage 1 and stage 2 so I guess I will have to purchase the tsat monitor that Phil has built for that unless there is a simpler way.

We are up and monitoring real live data, although I do have to tweak the graphs with some remember last value stuff and I'm a little concerned with how the rwt (return water temp) sensor is rising above the ewt when the unit shuts off, but it quickly measures a good delta when in actual operation. This means I don't have it insulated well from ambient air so I must replace/move this sensor or find a way to insulate it better than just sticking it under pipe insulation.

Hope this helps everyone and thanks again everyone for the assistance. Today... I'm very happy with the geo system.... I'm praying for many years of reliable operation and when it doesn't I should have the data to understand what is wrong.

Mike, looks like you're making good progress coming down the learning curve, making fast progress.

I don't have a WattNode with both 300 Hz and P3 options, so my familiarity with the unit you have is limited.  In general, though, as you're probably discovering, you can easily try out various configurations until it makes sense.  Get the pulse counting conversion to Watts working first, then work on your _D accumulations for kWh.  You can always look up in ClimateMaster literature what power level you should experience, and compare this to your reading.  If it's significantly off, then you know you don't have the WEL configuration numbers correct yet.  I used a current clamp-on multimeter to measure the current in my wires, early on, multiplied the readings by 240 VAC to approximate Watts, and compared to what I was getting with the WEL.

I looked at your WEL implementation, at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0561/ .  All looks fine except for your last chart, meant to represent the Watts your unit is consuming when running.  Right now the chart shows that you're always consuming a minimum of 13 W, and when running it increases by 2 W, to 15 W total.  I suspect you have your multiplier and constants for conversion to cost mixed in here.  Instead you'll need to 'clone' your GSHP number to separately do the cost computation.  Study up the WEL manual and this should be pretty straight forward.

The keys to good temperature measurement include: heat transfer compound of some kind between the sensor and the surface being measured, mechanical tie of the sensor to the surface (I use zip ties), wrapping the wire leads around the surface to be measured, and well insulating the sensor from ambient air (I use pipe insulation and then another layer of fiberglass insulation).

First look for some aux contacts on your unit that may indicate 2nd vs 1st stage usage.  Absent that use Y1 and Y2 as 24 VAC on/off indications for 1st vs 2nd stage usage - I use the WEL's 1-wire combo module for this purpose.  You can also 'roll your own' sensors using commonly available 24 VDC relays, an in line to the coil diode, and an in parallel electrolytic capacitor.  (This is what I did in the early days before the WEL 1-wire combo module became available).

The capability to remotely access WEL units has grown substantially in the past year, such that it's now very powerful.  I support 5 WEL units in various States, all without having to actually travel to them.  Looks like you've successfully set this up to be able to work on your WEL unit even though you're not physically at it.

WRT the question on how I built the boxes on my WEL system diagram picture (at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043/ ): I used Photoshop to create my system picture, so it's simply a use of one of the millions of PS capabilities.  I know there are many much more simple image editors available - I just happen to have a lot of PS skills due to being good at photography.  So I used what I already knew to make my system picture.

As far as the numbers are concerned, they're placed appropriately using the WEL x,y coordinate specification system for placement on the image.  The names in the chart (i.e. "HVAC now," "Usage today," etc.) are done with Photoshop (to lessen the size of the WEL x,y specification screen).

Best regards,

Bill

Thanks for the info Bill, I'm tweaking the numbers for data collection now and then will go to work on my static page. There are many great examples out there, including yours so I look forward to getting just the right display tweaked over the next few months.

Thanks for the tip on the watt chart phil wanted me to put up so he could double check my data scale. We are acually just charting the raw data (with scale) to see if it is collecting accurate data like you indicated. Looks like we have a problem with the scale. I will discuss it with Phil after I read the manual some more to ensure I have it set up correctly. I just charted the raw GSHP data as I thought that is what he wanted but perhaps I should have "cloned it" like you said.

I will try and get the rwt sensor moved or mounted better so it doesn't surge in temp when the unit shuts off.

One of my main goals with the wel system was to collect accurate data for performance and cost recovery calculations. So it is important that I get this thing tweeked up before the real heating season starts.

I'm using Power Point to put my background up together, but my knowledge of how to draw with it is weak. It's serving the purpose now, but I will investigate somehting better later.

I will also order the Wel 1 wire combo module to monitor the tstats. Wish there was a way to read the room temps from the Tstat wires so I wouldn't have to run a sensor all the way up to the secord floor..., but I know that's not possible. I want to run one to the attic anyway, so I guess I just run a multi wire up there and kill a couple of birds with one stone so to speak.


Thanks again

Mike

Mike, noting you have remote access to your WEL, if you would like for me to take a look at your set up, just holler.  You'll need to contact me off-line ( at bneukranz at verizon dot net) with access details.

Best regards,

Bill