I am ready to start my Geothermal project, I hope. I have been researching geo for a few years and think I understand all the project will entail.  I am employed as a civil/enviromental engineer and am in excavating business also, just so you know my background.

I have a 2800 SQ. FT. Home in NW PA, plenty of area for a horizontal install and have wet silty/clay soils.  It will be a water to air system replacing a 20 yr old original NG furnace.

I have sized a system for my home a couple of ways, and come up with a 3.8/4.2 ton requirement.  Because installing an extra ditch for an additional ton of capacity is not a problem, I am planning on using a 5 ton system.

I am unsure of what supplier or even mfg. to go with. I had been planning on going with Climate Master but when talking with the website I was going to order from they suggested the McQuay brand. I thought the Climate Master was the top of the line and McQuay seems to be lesser known brand.

I have been looking two websites that offer DIY kits, would prefer to buy product locally but seems that isn't an option for a DIY kit.

I want my system to be as efficient and trouble free as possible and don't mind spending a little more for quality.

Suggestions?? 

 

If you don't mind spending a little more for quality I would find a good contractor that can design your system and will allow you to do the excavating work. Geothermal is pretty complex and a huge expense/pain if you mess up the design. This will allow you to use your own expertise while avoiding any major issues, and also having someone else responsible if the design doesn't work correctly.

That's a great idea and what I originally intended to do. I would complete most of the outside work and let an HVAC contractor do their thing inside. Last fall I contacted 2 HVAC contractors that I met at a home show and had each give me an estimate. When I explained that I would complete the exterior work, the 32,000.00 est would knock of a couple thousand and the $26,000.00 est would do the same. Best price I could negoiate was $22,500.00 with me completing the excavating and pipe laying, they would fuse the connections. One contractor proposed a 3.5 ton Florida heat pump and the other a 4 ton system, can't recall the mfg at the moment.

After some googling and found complete systems for 7-11k, made me think a bit.  Trust me I know a contractor needs to make a living and I have no problem paying someone for a quality design and equipment and oversight.  However I would like to do as much on my own as possible because I wanna know everything about it. 

I think you will be fine, especially if you use this forum and someone local for some oversight. Based on other's talk - I think CM is the better choice.

Justin

Opps.sorry, accidentlly hit submit My opinion CM would be the better equipment. If it is a W2A unit, then Tranquility 27 is CM's highest rated unit. Are you doing a pressurized or non pressurized loop? In PA, you will need antifreeze in your loop, so i would suggest a pressurized loop regrdless of the heat pump manufacturer you choose.[b] [/b]

Thanks for the responses. The package I was looking to purchase has the QT flowcenter which is nonpressurized, seemed like a good idea because it eliminated the need for a flush cart. I am planning ona 20% glycol mix, think that's what was recommended. The website doesn't say if its a tranquilty 27, but that is what is pictured. 2 stage system. thanks.

The reason for my recommendation for a pressurized loop is that glycol can become acidic over time when exposed to air.

I would spend a few hundred bucks and get an expert to come in to find out what air lost your house has. DON"T go by a man J. 5 tons is a hellava lot for that size house! You might only have to spend a couple thous to reduce your tonnage down to 3.

i would look at the geopulse non pressurized and use methanol. methanol has a higher heat gain being a single carbon. its density is closer to water which is the best. the longer the chain the worse the heat exchange. methanol is cheaper also . there is a study by the univer. of new mexico on the antifreeze choices read it. i am in pennsyltucky also other side of the land of taxes than you. check out the dude from indiana on ebay he has good prices on systems. no taxes also and free shipping. having you done a manual j on the house. i have 2500 sq ft and 4 tons works for me. do not oversize the unit . bigger is not better in geo.

If you are sizing thisnyourself you are asking for issues and don't expect many compamies to give you a huge price break, we make our profit on equipment not labor, if you supply the equipment don't expect any warranties from the manufacturer. Ther is also a lot more to geothermal than just the unit and piping. Tools cost thousands for heat fusion and a flush and fill cart. You also need a flow center thermostats connection/fitting kits and more.

And 5 tons seems fairly large but that's a guess I have not seen the plans. Oversizing will short cycle, break more and not be as efficient or comfortable.

Hi and welcome,
I agree you need to get a local pro to size your system. since you are diy I highly recomend non pressurised and methanol for loop field, and over sizing the loop is no biggie. The sameis nottrue of the unit.
Eric

I presume based on your stated tonnage that your calculated loss is about 45 to 50K.
In my AO that would indicate as little as a 3 ton.
A 5 ton system will require large ductwork (360 sq in of return air) or run inefficiently and noisey.
A 5 ton system may actually cost more to operate since you will be running a larger compressor all the time to cover once in a blue moon loads.
I agree that a blower door test and tightening the envelope as part of your strategy will be a better approach than your current "bigger is better" mind set.

Climatemaster manufactures the Comfortaire Geomax 2's which have a longer compressor warranty and will be more easily available for DIY. Bard uses more relays and time delays than integrated circuits which makes them more friendly for the DIY.

Instead of getting help from the geo guys, find a local heating guy that wants to learn geo. Hire him for the sheet metal and to help you get the heat pump.
One company that sells the DIY kits you refer to has a number of easy to find complaints. Our DIY arm limits its AO to a few hundred miles to permit site visits and support. I strongly encorage you to find a local ally.

Mcquay is off the beaten track and may be harder to get parts for.

Good Luck,
j

Wow, Thanks for all the info. After reading about the methanol, that is the way to go, thinking that with an open flow center. When I had the estimates completed last fall I supplied a detailed drawing of the house, size and location of every room, door and window along with what insulation is where. Would it be feesable to install 5 tons of loop, use a 4 ton unit and only use the 5th ton of loop in the coldest of times. I also have a complete survey with areial photo overlay of the property, specifically of the loop install area. If someone on here is interested in looking at the information I can provide, size and is willing to sell it as a package I would certainly be interested. Or can recommend someone.
Joe.ami, from my zip to yours is 297 miles. Thanks for all the info.

The size of the loop field can be as big as you can afford that stands the common sense scrutiny.  If your load is really 4 tons, and you install 6 tons worth of loop you will maintain a more constant temprature with less fluctuation.  That can be good and bad depending on whether your glass is half full or half empty in regard to temp swings in loop fields.
Eric

Posted By Justin@DCC on 14 Oct 2011 01:48 PM
Would it be feesable to install 5 tons of loop, use a 4 ton unit and only use the 5th ton of loop in the coldest of times.

Why don't you let it run all the time. Will boost efficiency slightlyfor the whole season.

Justin, I just completed a DIY install (September 2011) and I'm in the process of getting my welserver tweaked to monitor my system (WEL0561). I'm in Michigan, and have a 4400 sf home which is pretty tightly built and did my own j with a software package I purchased online.

I purchased a climatemaster TT 27 - (6 ton) with climatemaster themostats because of their reputation of reliablity and support should I ever need parts. I had a HVAC guy do my ductwork and install backdraft dampers because I wanted to keep my propane for backup heat should we ever have a power failure. I can run the generator for the propane furnace, but it wouldn't do me much good for the GSHP.

I used climatemaster's geodesign program for my loop design (4 and 6 pipe configuration because I had plenty of space) and chose to use a non-pressurized system (QT) despite the objections of my local HVAC guy who has only done pressurized systems. I usually don't try "new" things to often, but I had 3 friends who installed Geosystems and 2 had QT's which are easy to check the water level and anti-freeze mixtures with so I went that route also. When I opened the QT top after just 30 days of operation, there was a hissing of air pressure as I removed the top. I did a gravity check and I'm still at the the 20 percent I was when I filled it so now I will only do an annual test.

I used methanol for my antifreeze and mixed it outisde in a 40 gal tank before pumping it into the house for safety (it's hazardous). Methanol was a bit more expensive than I was led to believe, but 39 gals gave me the 20 percent ratio I needed in 4800 ft of loop at a cost of $151.

I was told that my loop field could not be purged without a purge cart, but my HVAC guy was with me to witness (even brought his purge cart for me to use) and we did it with just the two pumps of the qt center - ONLY because we could isolate each of my loops from inside, doing one at a time. He left (with his purge cart) after I had done 4 of the eight loops because I was doing everything myself and he was just watching...

Did I save any money doing it myself???? that is a big question for my wife.... but not for me. Our friends got their systems installed for 18,000 each, by 2 different contractors (3 ton units) and that was 3 years ago. We needed a bigger system (larger house - different J), but our bids came in between 24 and 26,000.

I have spent 18,300 to date, with the welserver system and our bids did not include any welserver goodies. I think we are done, if we can just get the grass to grow... otherwise I'll have more seeding costs in the spring.

It would have been cheaper, but when I started excavating with my backhoe, the sand kept filling in the hole (cave in's) faster than I could remove it. So I had a guy with a large trackhoe come rescue me for a 3000.00 excavation bill. I covered the last hole myself and did the finish grading. I'm glad I did it myself and I'm praying that my system performs as designed.

There is a fantastic support group here... I have found them to be very helpful, knowledgeable and professional. It is great living in this day and age, with such technology and knowledge at your finger tips!

DIY is not always cheaper, but definitely more FUN! Hope this helps...

Justin, I just completed a DIY install (September 2011) and I'm in the process of getting my welserver tweaked to monitor my system (WEL0561). I'm in Michigan, and have a 4400 sf home which is pretty tightly built and did my own j with a software package I purchased online.

I purchased a climatemaster TT 27 - (6 ton) with climatemaster themostats because of their reputation of reliablity and support should I ever need parts. I had a HVAC guy do my ductwork and install backdraft dampers because I wanted to keep my propane for backup heat should we ever have a power failure. I can run the generator for the propane furnace, but it wouldn't do me much good for the GSHP.

I used climatemaster's geodesign program for my loop design (4 and 6 pipe configuration because I had plenty of space) and chose to use a non-pressurized system (QT) despite the objections of my local HVAC guy who has only done pressurized systems. I usually don't try "new" things to often, but I had 3 friends who installed Geosystems and 2 had QT's which are easy to check the water level and anti-freeze mixtures with so I went that route also. When I opened the QT top after just 30 days of operation, there was a hissing of air pressure as I removed the top. I did a gravity check and I'm still at the the 20 percent I was when I filled it so now I will only do an annual test.

I used methanol for my antifreeze and mixed it outisde in a 40 gal tank before pumping it into the house for safety (it's hazardous). Methanol was a bit more expensive than I was led to believe, but 39 gals gave me the 20 percent ratio I needed in 4800 ft of loop at a cost of $151.

I was told that my loop field could not be purged without a purge cart, but my HVAC guy was with me to witness (even brought his purge cart for me to use) and we did it with just the two pumps of the qt center - ONLY because we could isolate each of my loops from inside, doing one at a time. He left (with his purge cart) after I had done 4 of the eight loops because I was doing everything myself and he was just watching...

Did I save any money doing it myself???? that is a big question for my wife.... but not for me. Our friends got their systems installed for 18,000 each, by 2 different contractors (3 ton units) and that was 3 years ago. We needed a bigger system (larger house - different J), but our bids came in between 24 and 26,000.

I have spent 18,300 to date, with the welserver system and our bids did not include any welserver goodies. I think we are done, if we can just get the grass to grow... otherwise I'll have more seeding costs in the spring.

It would have been cheaper, but when I started excavating with my backhoe, the sand kept filling in the hole (cave in's) faster than I could remove it. So I had a guy with a large trackhoe come rescue me for a 3000.00 excavation bill. I covered the last hole myself and did the finish grading. I'm glad I did it myself and I'm praying that my system performs as designed.

There is a fantastic support group here... I have found them to be very helpful, knowledgeable and professional. It is great living in this day and age, with such technology and knowledge at your finger tips!

DIY is not always cheaper, but definitely more FUN! Hope this helps...

Nick, which is outta your price range? Numbers here mentioned $7,000 to ~$3,000. Actual will be somewhere in between. If you can't go mid teens for a geo system on a new build, then you probably aren't going to get geo.

If I might make a suggestion- cut back on some of the other features in your new home and buy them later with the money you saved on your heating or cooling bill (assuming you are in an area where geo is truly beneficial).

Things I've seen people that "couldn't afford geo" in their new homes purchase.....Marble counter tops, wood floors, gas fire places, circulator tubs, solid wood doors or trim, finished basements, high end ceiling fans etc. etc.
All of these things could be added later with money not spent on propane/gas/oil.