Norm2741
 New Member
 Posts:3
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| 28 Jan 2012 06:37 AM |
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Gentlemen, I’ve been lurking for some time out and have been able to find the answers to most of my questions in doing so. But, I find I need some help answering a DSH question. Here it is:
Background: I have a Bard WPV30C 2 ton/open loop system of 1997 vintage. I want to install a desuperheater but don’t want to pay the price for a Bard specific unit (GVDM-26), since I can get an aftermarket unit (Trevor-Martin ECU) for HALF the price of the Bard unit.
The Bard GVDM-26 documentation says in part: “There are also two (2) thermistor sensors connected to the control board. These thermistors are measuring and controlling to ensure there is a positive heat differential across the water being circulated. When operating in Part Load Condition, there are certain conditions (Ground Loop Temperatures versus Hot Water Temperatures) that potential exists where heat could transfer from the hot water into the refrigeration system instead of the refrigeration system into the hot water. Through the control board logic, these thermistors ensure there is at least 2° positive differential between entering/leaving water temperatures and will shut down the pump accordingly.”
The aftermarket ECU documentation says of its controls: “Power is drawn from the compressor contactor. Waste heat may be collected when the compressor operates, and the water circulating from the water heater tank is less than 140oF. A minimum refrigerant temperature of 125oF is also required to allow Heat Recovery operation.”
Questions: Is operation at partial load common on geothermal systems? Can I expect my system to run at partial load sometimes? Is partial load only associated with two stage systems? Will the minimum refrigerant temp of 125 associated with the aftermarket DSH mean it won’t run nearly as much with a geothermal system as it would with a comparable non-geothermal HP?
Thanks in advance for your attention. Norm |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 28 Jan 2012 06:53 AM |
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R-22 systems generally do not have the trouble you are concerned about. Make sure to use buffer tank. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Norm2741
 New Member
 Posts:3
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| 28 Jan 2012 07:39 AM |
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Thanks Joe. But which question(s) are you answering: a) Is operation at partial load common on geothermal systems? b) Can I expect my system to run at partial load sometimes? c) Is partial load only associated with two stage systems? d) Will the minimum refrigerant temp of 125 associated with the aftermarket DSH mean it won’t run nearly as much with a geothermal system as it would with a comparable non-geothermal HP? Thanks again!
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 28 Jan 2012 08:24 AM |
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partial load is associated with 2 stage systems and in particular, new 2 stage r 410 systems. it'll work fine. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 29 Jan 2012 09:13 AM |
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What's the price difference between the Bard and Trevor Martin? If memory serves, the Trveor Martin unit has been sold under a variety of brand names over the years, going back to Addison ECU. I had an Addison decades ago and was never pleased with its performance. Trevor Martin has collected the 6-8 brand names under which these things have been sold for decades. I was unable to quickly verify it for this post, but I believe they use a heat exchanger consisting of two parallel tubes configured in counterflow with only one tangential line of contact.That satisfies the double wall and venting requirement of many plumbing codes, but IMO, there are better heat heat exchange methods. I routinely install add-on desuperheaters to air source heat pumps, two stage and two compressor systems. I do not use the Trevor Martin units. Instead I use TurboTec's Enviropak. It has a very effective heat exchanger. The issue with less heat being available during part load operation is valid. I have worked with Turbotec to obtain slightly lower "turn-on" temperature switches. I'm told Turbotec makes the heat exchangers installed by WaterFurnace as their hot water option, though I have not verified this. If you are not going to add a separate buffer tank to store recovered heat, don't bother with the whole project. Turbotec will probably ask that you be or go through an HVAC contractor.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 29 Jan 2012 09:28 AM |
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Modern Bards come with DSH exchanger installed. Pumping unit is external and purchased seperately. My impression is that s what Norm is referring to. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 30 Jan 2012 12:56 AM |
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That may be, but he writes of 1997 vintage: "Background: I have a Bard WPV30C 2 ton/open loop system of 1997 vintage." I've had excellent experience with the TurboTec DSH and recommend it over the plethora of Trevor Martin brands. I've measured refrigerant delta-T of 50+ degrees through the unit, and that with a R410a SEER 17 heat pump...all supposedly indicators of less than optimal DSH performance - 410a, high SEER. Customer buffer tanks stay at 120+ pretty much all summer. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 30 Jan 2012 09:57 AM |
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I would not suggest anyone install a heat exchanger on a 15 year old heat pump. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 30 Jan 2012 09:36 PM |
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That's a fair point, although an external DSH could be migrated to a successor system |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 07 Feb 2012 09:24 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 30 Jan 2012 09:36 PM That's a fair point, although an external DSH could be migrated to a successor system just stumbled on this... while you are correct, doing so would void the warranty on virtually any system and you would have to make very sure the coax was clean as you would be switching refrigerants (those agents cost a few bucks as well). j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 11 Feb 2012 11:21 AM |
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I'll grant the point about having to flush the DSH before changing to R410a, but why would a DSH void a warranty? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 12 Feb 2012 11:32 AM |
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I cant think of any manufacturer that would approve a breech of their factory (clean enviroment) assembled refrigeration circuit to install a used coax that is jumping refrigerant to boot. First they want you to buy theirs, second they don't want to invite just anyone to start carving up their assemblies. My experience is that warranties are like insurance claims, they companies try to figure out how they can avoid paying. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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