Puzzle of Geothermal & Domestic Hot Water
Last Post 29 Feb 2012 11:36 PM by engineer. 6 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
RosmerUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6

--
28 Feb 2012 12:05 AM
Greetings.

A WaterFurnace NDV049A111CTR was recently installed in my home. It's connected to two vertical closed-loop wells. The system works as I expected, and the performance is satisfactory, except I'm puzzled by the interaction with the water heater.

The system includes a desuperheater tied into a new water heater (a 50-gal. Rheem Marathon MR50245). The water heater is set to 120 deg. When the heat pump is running normally (cycling on and off as needed), the hot water consistently comes out of the taps at 115 deg. When I shut off the geothermal system for half a day and test the hot water, it's consistently 140 deg. What causes this difference?

Another oddity: two pipes run from the water heater to the heat pump. Both pipes are equally warm to the touch along their entire lengths, although one comes from the cold water supply and the other is supposed to bring hot water back from the heat pump.

The run of pipes from the water heater to the heat pump is about 30 ft, and the pipes are mostly not insulated (yet).

I wonder if the experts here see anything amiss in this scenario.

-- Eric
docjenserUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1400

--
28 Feb 2012 03:40 AM
It seems that you do not have a buffer tank, causing you desuperheater not to contribute much. The rest sounds normal, but at 30ft distance, it looses as much as it adds.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
SkyHeatingUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:203
Avatar

--
28 Feb 2012 01:31 PM
I agree with Doc, you should have a desuperheater storage tank. The video I am providing a link for below has almost the exact same system(Watefurnace NDV064 with two marathon MR50245 units, one as a storage and one as a water heater) This is how the system should be hooked up. Fast forward to 2:31 to see the water heaters hooked up and then watch the rest of the video to see before and afters of the system.
http://youtu.be/egt5n_j93L4

I am also thinking that maybe the reason your water temps change is that your geothermal desuperheater should be putting out water close to 130 degrees into your Marathon, so when the geothermal is running your water heater shuts off even though the water on the top(where the hot water outlet is) has not been fully heated yet.
Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
29 Feb 2012 07:27 AM
It is normal for the desuper to heat water by only a few degrees

It is also quite possible for a desuper to EXTRACT heat from a tank heated by other means, and that sounds like what is happening to you. That means you may face an astonishingly high electric bill as your water heater is heating your geo system's refrigerant. If the 140 to 120 temperature reduction is a consistent condition, it may signify that the water heater elements are firing almost continually at a rate of 4.5 kw...If true, that is going to be expensive

My reasoning is that the water heater is set for 140, which explains why the temperature is 140 when the desuper is off. When the desuper is on, it may be transferring heat from hot water to refrigerant, reducing water temperature to 120. That would be bad.

I would give serious consideration to shutting off the desuper until a buffer (preheat tank) is installed.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
RosmerUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6

--
29 Feb 2012 09:16 AM
Thank you all for these sage words.

Curt Kinder's theory fits my observations. It makes sense that the water heater should be set no higher than the incoming water from the desuperheater. (I'm assuming that the desuperheater circulates water continuously when the heat pump is on.)

While investigating the idea of a buffer tank, I'm experimenting with turning the water heater down, seeking a setting of 110-120. The wildcard here is that the dials seem to understate the actual setting, since the water was 140 at the taps when the dials were on 120.
geomeUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:987

--
29 Feb 2012 09:53 AM
I believe WF recommends 100°F for both elements.

Although not popular amongst the pros here, I like 120-130°F for the upper thermostat and 100°F for the lower thermostat and we use a water heater timer which makes power available to our water heater elements for 3 hours per day just before large hot water demands.  Our elements aren't necessarily "on" for 3 hours per day (the thermostat on the elements determine that), but power is available in case our desuperheaters don't run enough to provide an adequate supply hot water.

This setup may not work well for everyone.
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
29 Feb 2012 11:36 PM
100*F for both elements will result in tepid showers during times when geo HVAC is inactive during mild weather. If my wife had to shower using just 100*F "hot" water, I'd be in deep doo-doo.

Geome's scheme works for families whose hot water draws are predictable as to time of day,

The dials on the heating element thermostats are notoriously unreliable. Pay them no mind. Adjust them in reference to hot water temp delivered to fixtures.

You can diddle around with uppper and lower element thermostat setpoints to your heart's content, but the bottom line is that you need a separate, unpowered upstream desuperheater preheat water tank in order for the desuperheater to be effective.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 195 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 195
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement