So I have 2 x 5 ton envision units produced in 2008 brand new
Both are connected to private well with plenty of water and dialed in.
In 2011 during winter one of the 2 units kicked out in error when calling for heat
It went into emergency heat.  A few days later the 2nd unit would just shutdown in error
Installer came out twice and flushed the water loop and reconnect.
Both units errored again

Freon was found to be low 5#s each. 
Units were recharged and worked great.

Its now 7mo later and the 1st unit is not producing more than a 10' temp drop for cooling
The 2nd unit is producing a 22' drop and freon was checked at about 125-130psi

In short the geopro tech and the wf rep said both have oil on the air coils and in the pans and are warranty covered.

What my problem is is that the the labor allowance is short
Ive already paid for freon out of my pocket once

Im not wanting to pay again as this is a known defect.

Customer service is reluctantly checking my story out but denies any issues with air coils BEING defective during the apx years of 2007-2009
They are covering the coils and a few $$$ for each unit but its not 100%

I KNOW others have had this problem and I KNOW some have been compensated 100% since its a defect

If anyone wants to post there dealings or send me a private email please do so.

Thanks

Hey gz you are not the only one. My 3ton Envision had a really slow Freon leak. After a florescent yellow/green dye was put it and several weeks a black light showed a leak in the coils. The part was covered but the most the labor and Freon were not. Mine was installed Summer 2009. CHuntMD

Same problem found on one of my two WF Envision units installed 4Q2009 -- Low delta T. My installer's lead tech correctly diagnosed the problem during our telecon when I first reported it. He came over same day and confirmed we had oil on the evap coil. He recharged the system to restore operation, ordered a new coil, and installed it two weeks later. Zero cost to me for both service calls.

My installer has been a WF pro for many years and gets 5 stars from me! I did not have to deal with WF at all (thank goodness), but I believe that every geo mfr knows about the leaky coil/corrosion problem and has been working hard to come up with a solution. Good luck with yours.

Posted By gnick540 on 15 Jul 2012 12:12 AM
Same problem found on one of my two WF Envision units installed 4Q2009 -- Low delta T. My installer's lead tech correctly diagnosed the problem during our telecon when I first reported it. He came over same day and confirmed we had oil on the evap coil. He recharged the system to restore operation, ordered a new coil, and installed it two weeks later. Zero cost to me for both service calls.

My installer has been a WF pro for many years and gets 5 stars from me! I did not have to deal with WF at all (thank goodness), but I believe that every geo mfr knows about the leaky coil/corrosion problem and has been working hard to come up with a solution. Good luck with yours.

When we say "dealer matters more than brand", this is the sort of thing we are talking about. Hats off to the company, you should give them a plug.

I am happy to recommend my installer, GeoThermal Distribution of Rockwall (Dallas), but I must include a footnote -- you get what you pay for. The total cost of retrofitting my 20 yr old house was substantial, but it included removal and replacement of all ductwork, sealing and spray foaming the attic, and some reframing to accomodate the new HVAC units and Marathon WH plus buffer tank. I am completely happy with the conversion, but I paid up front for the best installer and am completely satisfied with the results.

I too have been through the 'change out the evaporator coil' routine on one of my two WaterFurnace Envision 3 ton 2-stage variable speed units (details of the unit are at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 ), due also to leaking refrigerant (from the coil).

The geo professional who managed my situation is the same person/company that did gnick540's (above posting) installation, and managed his evap coil failure/changeout.

I too experienced exactly the same process/result as gnick540, who said (above earlier posting):
 

"My installer's lead tech correctly diagnosed the problem during our telecon when I first reported it.  He came over same day and confirmed we had oil on the evap coil. He recharged the system to restore operation, ordered a new coil, and installed it two weeks later. Zero cost to me for both service calls.

My installer has been a WF pro for many years and gets 5 stars from me! I did not have to deal with WF at all ..."


The professional's name is Eldon Hampton, owner of Geo-Thermal Distribution.  For anyone in the Dallas area who wants geothermal heating & cooling, residential and commercial, or needs repair, I know of no finer professional than Eldon.  Just the facts, no mess no fuss, articulate, knows his subject material inside out, has technician employees who know what they're doing, and 'gets it' when it comes to understanding what customer service is.

Eldon's contact information:

Geo-Thermal Distribution, Rockwall, TX  972-679-1438

http://www.geothermaldistribution.com/

Best regards,

Bill

I have asked Bill for his installers name before to give to a TX inquiry I had. It's nice to have yet a better endorsement.

First note to Bill @ WEL0043 We had some chat in the past
Im over in FTW on http://welserver.com/WEL0116/

Well Im getting my air coils changed today on both units. Im not happy with what WF calls "formicary corrosion" to get out of paying 100% replacement costs.
The GeoPro dealer coming today said it will most likely be this cause as he has seen it before and this looks the same.

I spoke to WF Cust support Operations and am still being told Quote "air coil failures are a direct result of formicary corrosion and not manufacturing defects." (Its NOT ?, Sounds like cheep construction to keep repairs always in motion)

Also Quote "In reference to the air coils being replaced in your equipment. WaterFurnace will honor the terms and conditions of our published warranty and provide the parts and labor allowances."

So Im going to have to pay the GeoPro guy his markup on freon in a sense which is $45/lb. WF will get the coils back and analysis them. IF found to actually be defective and not corrosion they will cut me a check for the extra cost. If it is formicary corrosion then I will be out the $600 out of pocket. If I loose I will still most likely write a letter to someone higher @ wf arguing the point and want 100%.

The GeoPro guy today is not the dealer who installed my system as that guy has been way to busy with business accounts and Im not sure he has done any WF coil changes yet.
Im very sure if I stuck with him he would not hit me the extra markup on freon as he hasnt in the past.

Two nights ago the unit thats worse shutdown with Low Pres and 10 flashed on the zone controller board so I rebooted the entire system and its back for now.

Thanks all.
Michael

Michael, good to hear from you.  Sorry to hear you're experiencing coil failures in your geothermal units.

I don't know if water-to-air geothermal unit coil failures are industry wide or are limited to one or just a few manufacturers.

In my case, for my 3 ton unit, I've been able to anticipate the need for coil replacement (twice) long before the unit reached alarm status, by using my WEL system to monitor the refrigerant discharge line immediately at the compressor.  Essentially I use my WEL system, amongst other reasons, to anticipate repair need in advance of catastrophic failure.

Here's the chart: http://www.welserver.com/perl/plot/...gerant.png (it's one of the series at http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 - about 3/4ths of the way down).

Right now my daily high refrigerant discharge temperature is about 130° (F) (this value changes as a function of Entering Water Temp).  I have an alarm threshold set at 180°.  At this point I call for repair.  180° seems to still be low enough to enable still many weeks of continued running without problem, giving the geo professional time to order parts, schedule the coil changeout, etc.

You can see an example of the refrigerant's temp sensor here: http://www.pbase.com/neukranz/image/92573342 , along with where it's installed on the refrigerant line (it's the sensor in the lower left corner, not the Leaving Water Temp sensor in the center of the image).

I looked at your WEL0116 numbers this morning.  Looks like your geo2 unit is struggling the most, with a 60° supply air temp, and in some cases almost no temp delta across the evap coil (although this may be simply to you possibly not having a sample and hold function on your temp measurements).

Since you too have a WEL system, if you ever want to set up this monitoring, I'd be happy to come visit to assist to install and set it up.  Just holler back via email.

Good luck today on the coil replacements.  My observation is that with a good tech who is skilled at brazing carefully it's still a good half day job to do everything right (including refrigerant filter replacement) for just one unit.  Thus, you are probably looking at at least a full day to cover both of your units.

Best regards,

Bill

(PS: I had hoped to see some WEL data on your solar PV system too.  Hope it's continuing to run well.)

Bill, I meant to suggest it was nice to have an additional enthusiastic endorsement. I did not mean to suggest gnick's is "better" than yours. (that's sure how it sounded when I read back over it.....oops)

We don't get too many air coil problems on young equipment here in MI regardless of brand.

Well my unit 2 air coils were swapped out and a cracked drain pan so a good catch for future problems. Unit is up and running at 71 return / 45 !!! supply air temps 2nd stage.  Yes thats 45F which I re-measured tonight after letting the unit run for 20min. Kids were wrapped in blankets watching tv.

The other air coil arrived damage from shipping, good old fedex, had a dent in one of the coils so be another week for the replacement. At least the critical unit is done.

-Bill Thanks for taking a look. as you see now my graph is out of wack due to one of the sensors failing during the service call but Ill have that working soon.
Yes I might drop you an email soon to see where you would recommend getting more temp data inside the box. Solar PV I havent purchased the hardware yet as honestly Ive let that system be with other projects going on. Perhaps Ill try to get back to it soon.

Posted By joe.ami on 18 Jul 2012 04:30 PM
Bill, I meant to suggest it was nice to have an additional enthusiastic endorsement. I did not mean to suggest gnick's is "better" than yours. (that's sure how it sounded when I read back over it.....oops)

We don't get too many air coil problems on young equipment here in MI regardless of brand.

Joe, not a problem.  In fact, I was not astute enough to read into your posting your fear!  The bottom line is that everyone that I talk with that has ever done business with Eldon Hampton / Geo-Thermal Distribution expresses the same review.

Interesting comment you made on air coil problems or lack thereof on newer equipment in MI.  It's possible the problem is geographic location oriented too, due to pollution in the air and/or how much water is being constantly formed on the coil.  I do know factually the problem is real for one or more manufacturers for their products located here in the Dallas area.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By gz007 on 18 Jul 2012 05:24 PM
... 45 !!! supply air temps 2nd stage.

... so [it will] be another week for the replacement. At least the critical unit is done.
 

Michael, glad to hear all went well with one of the coil replacements.

45° F LAT sounds a little low.  That means your coil is running near 35°, which is only 3° above freezing.  I'd be cautious about how much time you ever run this unit continuously in 2nd stage, and/or take another look at your CFM speed setting for 2nd stage.

I actually think it was a good turn of events for you to need to have the 2nd coil replaced at another time.  Doing it right requires a lot of time and effort to replace a coil.  I think it's to your advantage to have the coils thus replaced on separate days.

Best regards,

Bill