I am currently asking for bids for a geothermal that requires all new duct work for a 1973 2350 square foot house in Minnesota. I was hoping you guys could help me with a few questions.

One of my greatest worries is having a contractor deliberately underbid the estimate and then "find" a bunch of new expenses. In order to minimize the chances of this happening I asked all the contractors to include a clause in the contract so they are responsible for any costs over and above their bid. Most of them were okay with the idea but some got downright pissed. As I see it if you are good at your job it wont be that difficult to give an accurate estimate. What do you guys think about this idea?

We always stick to the quote we give, even if we end up loosing money.

Posted By docjenser on 07 Sep 2012 04:32 PM
We always stick to the quote we give, even if we end up loosing money.

We do the same

Does the house have ducts now?

Same here.

Your concern is well-founded. There is a methodology, more common with general contractors than subs, to underbid to get the job and then make money on change orders.

Some HVAC companies advertise very low system prices and then nail the client with extra charges to make the system meet code or actually work - electrical work, load calculations, mounting pads, lineset flush, condensate switches, etc.

An HVAC job should be able to be bid such that the proposal is all-inclusive. The system should meet code, meet load, deliver required airflow to each room.

That said, there can be uncertainties, particularly with new ductwork, that may not be known until walls, floors and ceilings are opened up. We can't cut trusses or other load bearing elements to fit ducts, so there is legitimate risk from concealed elements of the project.

Your best bet may be to seek contractors with a pre-existing reputation for fair dealing.

All my contracts detail potential extras again highlighted in yellow i.e.:
"While price is intended to be turn-key it does not include electric work upstream of meter.....especially dry soil may require additional ground loop...."

I do not have a crystal ball as far as the soil goes and spot digs do not account for the hundreds of feet we have to pass through- most customers understand this. The additional loop cost is stated with the disclaimer.
r.e. the electric upgrade, we are unable to predict what the "engineer" (may have been in billing last week) will do.
most recently they demanded a new mast and greater elevation for an adequate overhead service. I pointed out to the electrician that it was a legally existing service and was encouraged by him not to make waves (in case they demanded an underground next). Guaranteed a profit by law these jokers haven't a wit of customer service in 'em.

I guess I wouldn't be offended so much by the "clause" request as confused by the communication breakdown (as in what part of while price is intended to be turn-key the following is not included......don't you understand?).

I personally am not familiar with contractors underbidding just to get the job and changing the price later. I am familiar with newbies that no so little about their job cost that they underbid by accident. In that case, up charges are the least of your worries.

In the course of shopping one should be able to identify the going rate in their area, if one contractor is significantly cheaper, one may want to avoid them anyway. The others are likely charging enough to get the job done.

We always stick to our bid price. I think if a contractor sticks to their bid price, you can tell they have more experience doing geothermal and comfortable with their proposal technique.

Posted By docjenser on 07 Sep 2012 04:32 PM
We always stick to the quote we give, even if we end up loosing money.

The better Dallas area HVAC professionals do likewise.

They're also typically not the least expensive.

Many of the better Dallas area HVAC professionals invest time and effort to understanding unique code requirements from municipality to municipality, and invest time into relationship building with inspectors, to avoid being caught with unforceen costs.

When it comes to contract pricing, typically here it's that you in general get what you pay for.

Also, the better geo pros locally here will not put in a clause on additional cost for another hole if borehole field capacity isn't adequate.  Instead, they work with (pay) the drillers for their geology knowledge to formulate the bid.  Of course this cost is included in the contract.

Best regards,

Bill

Nor would I put a clause in the contract for an additional borehole.
Horizontal trenches are a wild card when you have a wild disparity of soils. Vertical loops are unimpacted by what the soil is like in the first 6 or 8'.