Geothermal in new construction?
Last Post 28 Sep 2012 04:17 PM by Skeptix. 12 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
SkeptixUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:8

--
26 Sep 2012 08:08 PM
I've been reading these forums for a while now trying to decide if I should go with geothermal or (conventional HE heat pump and propane) for a new home.  I have been having a really hard time finding a geothermal contractor that will even call me back after coming out to look at the job.  It could be because they are unwilling to get into a project already started by someone else.  I purchased the house at a sheriff sale partially completed.  It has the duct work roughed in already.  I also told all the contractors that I would provide the horizontal ground loop.  The piece of property I own is in an environmental covenant, so there is no wells allowed to be drilled. I have the ability and equipment to install the ground loop. So, I have looked into trying to do the job myself. 

Now the problem is that I don't have the knowledge to size the system or ground loop.  I have exhausted my resources of people I know to help me with this project.  Apparently, geothermal isn't very popular or common in my area.  There seems to be a total lack of knowledgeable people in the area.  Most people that I talk to don't know enough about geothermal and want to steer me away for something they are more comfortable with. 

First thing I did was to do a heat load calculation.  I purchased the homeowner edition of HVAC-Calc and entered in all the information.  I am a little skeptical about the heat loss, but the cooling looks good or seems about normal to me.  I live in south central PA and the home I'm building is roughly 4,800 sq ft including the basement and craw space, which both I want to condition.  The total heat loss came out to 54k btuh and heat gain is 48.5k btuh with design temperatures at 70 degrees in the summer and 75 degrees in the winter.  I understand the program has no safety factor built in, but everyone has been telling me that seems way too low.  A friend of mine had a local HVAC supplier do a calculation as well, they used RHVAC, with totals coming 105.5k BTUh heat lost and 41k btuh of heat gain.  The heat gain looks really close, I'm sure they didn't add in people, all the extra computer equipment I'm gonna have, and not sure of the design temps.  Why the big difference in the heat loss?  This is where I'm stuck right now,  I don't want to spend thousands of dollars buying the wrong equipment and not being happy with the end result.  So any help would greatly be appreciated.  I am also not totally committed to going with geothermal if there is a better alternative.



Thanks,

Colby
ACES-EnergyUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:67

--
26 Sep 2012 10:14 PM
What town?
www.ACES-Energy.com
docjenserUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1400

--
26 Sep 2012 10:23 PM
Roughly 22 btu/sqf is a lot for a new built house, half that would sound more reasonable in your location.
www.buffalogeothermalheating.com
SkeptixUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:8

--
26 Sep 2012 11:02 PM
York, PA


The house is 2 story with r-19 in the walls and r-49 in the ceiling.  The a normal amount windows and doors.
whirnotUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:186

--
27 Sep 2012 10:36 AM
Your desire to install the ground loop may be a detractor as they might not want to be responsible for your work, or even enter that issue. I have a similar situation where I can supply the excavation much cheaper than having them farm it out to a Excavator.
If I do the excavation and they do the actually laying of the loop, I have had no problems with acceptance. Then the rsponsibility is vey defined.

For contractors I would just contact manufacturers such as Waterfurnace, Bosch etc, and get installers info from them. Many Manufacturers have the design software to do the loop design.
SkeptixUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:8

--
27 Sep 2012 10:41 AM
I understand that, I am in business for myself. And have no problem taking the liability of the ground loop.
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
27 Sep 2012 05:14 PM
Posted By Skeptix on 26 Sep 2012 11:02 PM
York, PA


The house is 2 story with r-19 in the walls and r-49 in the ceiling.  The a normal amount windows and doors.

Even that 54BTU/hr heating number still seems on the high side for a 4800' of conditioned space that includes basement & crawl spaces, but maybe.  Why were you using 75F for an interior temp in winter and 70F in summer? (rather than conversely)  Do you REALLY think the crawl space is or should be running 75F all winter?

What were you using for outside design temps?

Is there any foundation wall insulation? (If not, it's worth fixing that.)

A decently tight code min house that size kept at 70F in winter would typically come in at or under 50KBTU/hr @ 0F, and your 99% design temp in York is +12F.  That 105KBTU/hr number is insane, unless one or two windows don't have glass.  I'd have more faith in the 54K number hitting closer to reality- it depends on how tight it is and the actual U-factors of the windows.

If it's low-density R19 batts in the walls, unless the finish work is already done it's worth packing the walls with something denser- either 1.8lbs blown fiberglass or 3.5lbs density cellulose. (R19 batts only perform at R18 in a 2x6 cavity, and then only with a temperature difference of 30F or less. At the bigger delta-Ts you see at heating outside design temp the performance is much lower.)  Higher density blown goods will fill all voids & thermal bypasses and are highly air-retardent, stabilizing the R value at the temperature extremes, and lowering the infiltration rates.

Similarly if the attic is low or mid-density batts (or worse-  blown fiberglass), overtopping it with at least 3" of cellulose would give it better overall performance, even if it causes the low-density fiberglass to compress.  The air-retardency of the cellulose blocks convection loops between the fiberglass & attic, and blocks infra-red radiation off the hot roof deck in summer that would otherwise penetrate the fiberglass.


CalladrillingUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:41
Avatar

--
27 Sep 2012 08:53 PM
We do work with DIYers in our business and encourage them to do all their homework! It seems as though it may he hard for a HVAC company to want to jump in with you on this though. They may see it as a headache done the road if the loopfield is not done correctly. They will recieve hundreds of call backs with every scenario being run out in front of you, to make you happy so you do not slander them on the Internet. Loops are not rocket science, but can easily be done incorrectly and have years of headaches and back tracking.
Dan Callahan
Www.CallahanWellDrilling.com
SkeptixUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:8

--
27 Sep 2012 11:18 PM
I used 91F and 12F for the outside design temps. I like it warm in the winter, that is why I used 75F in the winter. And cooler in the summer so I used 70F. The crawl space is poured concrete and insulated with 2" polystyrene sheet. The crawl space is only exposed to the outside on 2 walls and I want to use it for storage, so I want it to be conditioned. The basement has the same insulation as the crawl space at this point 2" polystyrene.

There is no insulation anywhere in the house yet, which is going to change here shortly. I used standard R-19 and R-49 fiberglass in my load calculation.  I was planning on having the attic blown in. My original quote was for fiberglass. The house should be fairly tight, I have sealed every joint and seam on the exterior before the Tyvek went on.

The windows in house are Andersen 400 series vinyl clad wood with Low-E glass.

Colby
engineerUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2749

--
28 Sep 2012 01:17 AM
I strongly recommend replacing "should be fairly tight" with a measured infiltration value derived from a blower door test. If you have this performed before drywall goes up you have a fighting chance of locating and correcting pressure envelope air leaks. Incorporate the result into the load calculation.

Blower door apparatus can also assist with making sealed crawl space a reality.

Ask to see details of the competing load calc so as to ascertain reasons for greatly different (2x) result. All Man J-compliant load calc programs DO have some safety factor slop built in. Fear not proper sizing, but pay proper homage to GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) as it applies to all computer-assisted activities. With reasonably successful air sealing effort and assuming reasonable glass area I lean toward your 54 kBtuh heat loss result, assuming you follow Dana's advice to ensure each window opening has a window installed; leaving one or two out will surely drive up heat load

Your winter and summer design temperatures are a bit beyond the pale but we live in a free country.

Don't go too crazy conditioning the crawl space. Code requires 50 CFM supply air per 1000 SF; stay with that.

An agile, progressive, and creative geo HVAC installer should be willing to install a system utilizing a DIY loop field by simply inserting a performance guarantee caveat predicating system performance upon provision of minimum loop field flow at maximum EWT in summer, minimum EWT in winter.



Fiberglass is cheap, but you get what you pay for.


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
28 Sep 2012 08:20 AM
I'm with the others that think the ~50,000 btu load is fairly accurate, particularly if we are talking about a third of that underground.
There is much more we would need to know, but we could easily size equipment remotely for you, as a matter of fact, I'm guessing 4 ton now.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
28 Sep 2012 11:07 AM
Posted By Skeptix on 27 Sep 2012 11:18 PM
I used 91F and 12F for the outside design temps. I like it warm in the winter, that is why I used 75F in the winter. And cooler in the summer so I used 70F. The crawl space is poured concrete and insulated with 2" polystyrene sheet. The crawl space is only exposed to the outside on 2 walls and I want to use it for storage, so I want it to be conditioned. The basement has the same insulation as the crawl space at this point 2" polystyrene.

There is no insulation anywhere in the house yet, which is going to change here shortly. I used standard R-19 and R-49 fiberglass in my load calculation.  I was planning on having the attic blown in. My original quote was for fiberglass. The house should be fairly tight, I have sealed every joint and seam on the exterior before the Tyvek went on.

The windows in house are Andersen 400 series vinyl clad wood with Low-E glass.

Colby

I strongly recommend making the attic insulation blown cellulose (specify borate-only, sulfate free fire retardents), and meticulously air-sealing the attic floor/upper-floor ceiling prior to insulating, since fixing it after the fact is a serious pain.  Sealing the stop of the "stack effect" stack is critical- far more important than sealing the wall sheathing.

 The walls would be tighter if either open cell foam, blown high density fiberglass (1.8lbs density min.) or cellulose (any density if wet-sprayed, 3lbs min if dense-packed.)  R19 batts are junk (as are R23s).  If going with batts only "cathedral ceiling" high density batts cut it.  In 2x6 cavities R19s perform at R18 , and R23s only perform at R19 within the ASTM test range, and worse at higher delta-Ts than 30F (due to higher convection currents within the low density fiber layer.)  For the labeling they're tested at full manufactured loft, which is deeper than 5.5".  High density R21s perform as-labeled, even with higher delta-Ts than tested, but only if installed perfectly, with no compressions or gaps.

Sprayed or blown insulation have inherently fewer voids, and if installed at sufficient density, will usually meet or exceed their labeled performance.

Conditioning an unfinished basement or crawlspace in winter to fully 75F for storage is just silly.

If the siding isn't up there's still time to add foam to the exterior.   With exterior foam at R7.5 or higher it keeps the sheathing sufficiently above the dew point of the interior air that no interior vapor retarder is required, which gives the assembly MUCH better drying capacity.   Going with 1.5" of XPS gets you there, and still has ~ 1 perm of drying capacity toward the interior.  Using 1.5" of foil-faced iso gets you there too with a somewhat higher R, but puts a vapor retarder on the exterior, making it more important that you not use low-perm finishes or vapor retarders on the interior (standard latex/acrylic is fine. 

Going with 1.5" XPS cuts the heat loss through walls by about 1/3, going with iso cuts it nearly in half:  Without the exterior foam, with the thermal bridging of the framing factored in the "whole wall" R of 2x6 framing with any of the cavity insulation mentioned is only R13-R14.  With 1.5" of XPS that rises to ~R20-21. With 1.5" of iso that becomes R22-23.  At your +12F heating design condition iso & XPS in a 1-2" thick sheathing application perform about the same, but at your average winter temps iso will outperform XPS at any equal thickness.

The biggest untreated air leak on most new construction is at the foundation sill and band joist, adding up to several times the air leakage of all window & doors.  A sill gasket helps, but not very much. Sealing an insulating the band joist & foundation sill with 1" of closed cell foam (right up to the top edge of your 2" rigid foam) is good, 2"of foam in this critical area is better.  By stopping air leakage into the basement/crawl, it lowers the flow of stack-effect induced infiltration losses.  If you then also air-seal the top floor ceiling and any plumbing/electrical penetrations/chases into the attic it takes it down even further.  At ANY ACH/50 number on a blower door test, sealing the basement & attic fixes more infiltration volume than even much bigger wall leakage under pressure in the intervening floors.

The Andersen 400 series comes with a number of different low-E options, and the U-factors can be as low as U0.24 or as high as U0.30, which is a big enough difference in performance to affect the load numbers, so it's good to check the label/models and put the right numbers into your heat load calculation tool.  The orientation, shading, and SGHC numbers will also affect the cooling load numbers.
SkeptixUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:8

--
28 Sep 2012 04:17 PM
Ok, for anyone who is interested in looking into what I have so far here are some links to what I have used to get the numbers I came up with. The windows that still have the stickers on them have a U0.30 rating. And yes all the windows have glass in them =D. The siding is on the house already, so there is no adding any insulation to the exterior. THe siding is Hardie Board fiber cement siding. 

 I appreciate the information everyone is giving me. There seems to be a total lack of knowledgeable HVAC and insulation contractors in my area. Basically, everyone just does it a certain way in my area and that's it. No one seems to be very interested in efficiency around here.


Link to blueprints
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/109176345/6-7-2012.pdf
They are almost exact to what is build with the exception of a window missing in the bonus room and there is not going to be a chimney.

Link to HVAC-Calc results
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/109176345/Home_ByRoomEachComponentSelectionsSqFt%282%29.pdf


Thanks again

Colby
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 217 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 217
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement