For the past five years I have been sinking money into my American Geothermal DX system. I am to the point I want to get a new one. The current one I have runs r22 through the copper tubes. What I was wondering is can the loop system be used that is in the yard or will it all have to be excavated and new lines put in. I am just trying to keep cost low if possible. my system is only 10 to 12 years old.

What problems have you been having?

You are probably aware that R22 is on the way out, increasingly expensive to obtain. New systems may not be shipped charged with it.

We routinely change out R22 air source systems with newer systems using R410a. If the line set is in decent shape, especially if it is difficult to access, we'll reuse it. However, it is critical to flush the lineset clear of any residual oil from the R22 system being replaced. Newer R410a systems use oils incompatible with older R22. The flush solvent we use is pricey, so in your case I'd want to be certain that the existing copper ground lines are in good shape, able to sustain the higher pressures of R410a and are able to be flushed of the old oil.

I moved into my home 6 years ago my home is now about 11 years after I moved in the first winter I had to replace the compressor. 1800 after I moved in. The following year I had to have the reversing valve changed. The following year I had to have an item that sits in the electric box not sure what it's called but looks like a can of pop and has 2 points on the tip. That writes connect. The following summer the air conditioner gets so cold there is ice buildup on the lines. Can't use in summer. Note the compressor isn't kicking in again.. You can hear it click from the electric but the compressor isn't turning on. The thermostat basically goes right into emergency heat. So yet unfortunately yet another issue. The other day I pressed in on the button were the electric enters the unit it worked for a few days bit now that doesn't even work.

With systems I'm aware of, the refrigerent metering is done in the ground loops so you will have a hard time changing the heat pump without changing the loops. That said a repair may be easiest. If it's another pop can (capacitor) definately fix it.
Icing can be plugged filter, plugged fan coil, plugged of failing blower, refrigerent metering problem (i.e. bad expansion valve) or low refrigerent (leak).
If you have to get a new system then I would think you opportunity could not be better (with 30% tax credit which applies to ground loops as well.
I wrote a lengthy blog that I retitled (and refreshed) "the trouble with DX". You may wish to read it before shopping for a new system.

I love the concept of DX.  What could be neater than burying the refrigerant lines?

I know that this is only one case, but it dampens my enthusiasm for using DX systems.  I do not think that any homeowner should have to go through this experience.   And if people see this case, I am afraid they will feel the same way that I do, regardless of the true mean time between failures of this type of equipment.

Unfortunately if you bury an expensive heat exchanger and it's designed for a specific refrigerant retrofit is much more complicated. With water source, the ground loops are more like duct work. If it is big enough you can hook it to most any water source system. In fact this is a point we might add to the other DX thread.

I feel your pain... I have two DX systems and have mixed feelings concerning the decision to install these in the first place. Documented my adventures on my web page: http://www.kmfarms.us/dx.html Good luck, Ken

kjfrazi,

Thanks for the link to your blog about DX.  I read it and I am dismayed about the troubles that you experienced.

As they always say the installation is the most important part of the process. I learned a great deal from this and when the time comes for the next install I will know what to research / look for in the company doing the work. When it works it’s a great system but since we travel a good bit I am always worried that the system will die while we are away. Sure, it saves $$$$ but, that is used up with $400 a year in Freon. Ken

Today I. Figured I would try my furnace being it's supposed to get down to 30 degreed and the compressor kicked in when I pushed the button where the electric goes into the unit it turned on but It wasn't working in conjunction with the fan. The com pressure got to the point were it shut off more then likely overheated. Would this be do to the capacitor or any other ideas?

Well, it sounds like a fan problem. Trouble shooting would start with the fan relay. If there is power to the fan then it is the motor or capacitor.

The fan runs in both auto and on.

I appreciated the link to the DX adventures as well. I feel obliged to respond to the salesmans bullet points that are in the beginning of the text.

"The advantage of DX systems
is that they bury copper in the ground where the freon is in contact with the heat / cool of the earth. "

Unfortunately the earth may not move heat as quickly.

"The water systems use plastic pipe that requires you to tear up the yard more (horizontal systems)"

We actually dig less/ton on a horizontal slinky.

" and the cost in electricity
of running circulator pump to move the water was a issue."

ok a .3 amp water circulator uses a lot less juice than a compressor moving dozens of extra pounds of freon.

I just ordered a new capacitor. I have a feeling that the one that was installed 2 years ago may havebeenused. I purchased a Kline mm200 multimeter put it on ohms and mainly stays on ol numbers do appear but goes away. Shows under zero not one time

Sounds like a capacitor, it is neither open nor shorted. That being said the capacitor is used fairly heavily, and I wouldn't trust a meter to be able to tell you if it is going to operate, all the average ohm meter can detect is a hard failure. However, that being said, I would expect a weak capacitor to pop the breaker quickly (seconds), if that is not the case I would prepare to be disappointed.

Compressor cap may blow breaker fairly quickly, blower cap may not.

I would like to say thank you on the capacitor resolution. it seems to be working. I just have one other question you may be able to help me with. last year I purchased a aprilaire model 8800 thermostat. I believe some settings may be wrong on when it goes into comp 1 and 2 and then into emergancy mode. has anyone worked with this thermostat and can anyone give me a general idea on what the degrees should be set to on state one stage 2 and stage 3. I think this is another reason why my heat is going into emergancy heat so quick because they are all set to 1 degree by default and I don't really think this is correct. can anyone give me an idea on what they should be on.

You might can find out here:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=aprilaire+model+8800+thermostat&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=aprilaire+model+8800+thermostat&sc=1-31&sp=-1&sk=

In reviewing this person's original question and the answers provided sum up to most consumer complaints which applies to any type of HVAC system whether DX geothermal, water source geothermal or air to air type equipment. The system must be installed correctly and serviced correctly to work correctly. While air to air systems are more forgiving so to speak in continuing to work even though most of the time at far less efficiency than rated at and not installed or operating correctly, geothermal systems are not as forgiving although they far surpass ANY air to air system in what they give you in benefits and efficiency. In this case the information from the owner of the home whom has the DX system has had a problem with a capacitor which all the systems would of had and is only an electrical component or part, the thermostat was not set up correctly for the application and thus caused the system not to function and work correctly. Not all thermostats are approved and designed for DX geothermal systems. You have to have one that has the capabilities to work correctly with the system it is to be used for. If there is a Freon leak it also is most likely due not to the equipment but a copper line in or not in the ground which if in the ground was most likely installed by the drilling contractor and not part of the actual DX compressor unit. One of the copper earthloops as they are called may indeed have a refrigerant leak if kinked or installed incorrectly by the driller if indeed there is a refrigerant leak underground. Most likely the leak is from apoor brazing joint from a coupler connecting the copper line somewhere which was a human error. That can be easily be tested for whether in the ground or above it. Geothermal systems are more than just great whether DX or water source. From being in the HVAC trade and industry for over 25 years and involved with both DX and water source type geothermal I have seen both have problems. Most problems arise from two factors. Either improper installation or technicians that have no business working on equipment for a technology they know nothing about. Geothermal whether DX or water based far surpasses any brand or model of air to air systems in giving far better efficiency, performance, less problems and less repairs with a longer life cycle. Let's keep in mind folks, air to air equipment is tested at 82 degree outdoor air temperature and 80 degree indoor air temperature. Above 90 degrees air to air systems give far less performance and efficiency and who keeps their thermostat at 80 degrees in the A/C mode. Same applies to an air to air HP system, below 40 degrees they give poor efficiency and the colder it gets the less they give you. Manufactures of air to air equipment have greatly inflated the true efficiency ratings of their equipment offerings by using and being allowed to publish a poor testing method results. They don't dare publish their true efficiency or no one would buy them. Nuff said! Those are the facts not just an opinion. Geothermal systems are tested under a far different testing method with much more accurate ratings although some water source manufacture models have started using exaggerated ratings also.

Try to organize your thoughts into groups and then insert a few paragraph line feeds for readability.

One of my many test meters tests for capacitance...I used it yesterday to condemn a 55 uF compressor capacitor...it tested under 10 uF, and compressor refused to start. New cap = compressor start and a happy client.