We have a home in the western mountains of Maine and we currently spend from May 1st until late November or early December there. We plan to sell our other home and move their full time. We have a wood burning Fireplace insert and a large pellet stove in the basement which more than heats the home while we are there. The ranch home is very very well insulated and is only about 1400 sq feet. We have a full basement with an insulated foundation. We have gotten one estimate so far for geo. they recommended a 2 1/2 ton system with 375 foot verticle closed loop . We have a tankless hot water heater and the price includes a desuperheater. The total price was just over 30,000. I tried to attach estimate but could not due to file size. The temperature can be -10 or even less, but we can supplement with the stoves if it is very cold. I am reading some comments on the noise of systems. Is that a problem for many? I want to be sure the system is sized properly but am frankly confused by so many things I am reading here. As this is not replacing anything else, we cannot say what it would cost to heat the home with propane (which is really the only other method we have considered). I like the idea of air conditioning even though Maine is not so hot, I have health issues that make me intolerant of heat. The payback the company shows is not in my opinion accurate. I made my own spreadsheet and used variable rates of increase in fuel costs and varying usage rates and I get a break even of anywhere from 6 to 18 years ( longer payback based on not installing any air conditioning with the propane system) Thanks for any advice. Diane

A little more info
.....................
The contractor measured house very well and I believe they used a geodesigner software tool by the manufacturer to determine size. The unit recommended was a Climate master Next Energy tranquility TZ030 digital 2 stage. 2 1/2 ton .....Includes a 40 gallon Rheem hot water tank which will not be hooked up to electric but will feed the tankless hot water heater.

You will need to check the specs of your tankless. Some units will not operate with higher incoming water temps.

Bergy

TZV030 is the lowest efficiency offering by CM, but the only model with half ton increments. I would compare it to a TEV026 out of curiosity. It is 4,000 less btu's but more efficient.
Are there opportunities to tighten up the house and reduce load? 75 less feet of drilling may save some to pay on the more expensive unit?
What is the design temp? What is your cost/kwh (take total bill and divide by kwh's used so you get actual delivered and taxed cost. Also look at a 3 ton.

I will check on the tankless, but I believe it will accept higher incoming temps. It is a two year old Unit and the contractor looked at it.
.......

The house is very tight and formerly a seasonal home, which we extensively remodeled. We torn down part of it and the new part has six inch walls with blown in cellulose fiber with an additional two inch foam on the inside. the ceilings are 12 inch blown in cellulose fiber. The part that was not torn down and rebuilt was taken down to the studs. 4 inch blown in cellulose and two inch foam on both the inside and the outside of the walls. We put in a full basement, which also has foam insulation around the foundation. All new windows, doors, electric and new plumbing, so it is basically a new house. It is now so tight we are considering a Heat recovery ventilation system.
........

I will ask about the other models suggested. I will also ask for a breakdown of the costs , my estimate did not give me the drilling charges separate .
....
Thanks for the replies.

Also in consideration is when to do this. We are only living there seven months a year at this time so the system would not be used part of the year. We winterize the plumbing in the winter. Can a geo thermal system be left unused ? Does it need to be winterized? ..... In the winter we are in New Jersey so we really would not even get to fully tested at this time. ... We are going to put our home on the market in the spring, so maybe we should wait until it is sold to proceed. I want to do this while the tax credit is still available however. .. Diane

From your description of the outer shell, I get the impression you have a roughly R30 exterior, with perhaps less around the foundation (but that's mostly underground, I presume. With only 1400 sqft above the foundation, I have to wonder about the heat loss calculation. My own house (central NH, CZ6), while superinsulated, is close to 2,000 sqft on the upper level and the same on the lower level, which is partly fully framed walkout and partly buried into the hill. I have a CM TTV026 (2-ton), and it doesn't even go into second stage during winter. The heat loss model shows a design loss of just 22,000 BTU/hr, but the heat pump, in first stage, puts out just 3/4 of that, so my heat model was conservative.

I would be surprised if a properly done heat loss model for your house, as described and at that size, requires a 2.5 ton unit. I'd look carefully at the details of the calculation done for you. You can always build your own spreadsheet to do the calculations, if you know all the wall and attic areas, plus the U and size of each window. From what I've experienced, simplifications done on such a calculation, while appropriate for older construction, may well be way too conservative for a very well insulated house. In my case, three outside calculations all indicated a 5-ton unit was needed, and all turned out to be way off the mark.

What is the rated output of the pellet stove, and have you used it during any bitter early December weather? If it keeps up with the heat loss under such conditions, that would give you an idea of how much heating capacity is more than enough.

Mainpaddler,
Geo is not a system to be winterized or even dialed down to 50. Most ground loop systems are protected to 15F and most geos will trip low pressure if EWT is too low.
If you are going to want to turn it off, don't install it yet.

I am in NJ for a few days , when I get back to Maine I will check the pellet stove specs. We have been there until Nov 20th and had temperatures in the teens at night.. The pellet stove had no trouble keeping us warm. We did not e en use it that much. When temps were in the 20-30s during the day and teens at night we sometimes inky used the wood stove in the living rooms in the evening, and lot it burn out during the night. It stayed comfortable the entire next day. It's year we hope to stay longer and can test the stoves more fully.

Thanks Joe for that advice. If we can not winterize the system, we might be better off waiting. Power outages are not uncommon, so leaving the system on would risky if we were away for months. I had considered winterizing the plumbing but leaving the system on, but if the power was out for days, it sounds like we could have problems.

Now I am wondering if we can go geo. When we move to Maine full time, we still plan to go to Florida for a few months in the winter. What do people do in northern climates when if they leave for a few months?

A good estimate of the size of the heating system needed can also estimate the yearly operating cost - but I wouldn't trust the numbers from someone selling you an expensive system. Consider an air source heat pump plus stove, propane or electric for the very coldest weather.

"Now I am wondering if we can go geo. When we move to Maine full time, we still plan to go to Florida for a few months in the winter. What do people do in northern climates when if they leave for a few months?"

First, to my previous comment, I meant to say most geos will trip low pressure if the EAT (entering air temp) is too low. The point is you mentioned temperatures as low as -10F and though it would take awhile obviously if you let the house get that cold it would defeat your freeze protection. You need to compare the cost of keeping your house 65F while you are away with geo, vs winterizing and heating with something else while you are there. It may be cheaper to heat with geo and not winterize, or you could use emergency heat (aux. coil to keep the house from dropping much below freezing. There are ways to calculate cost of each to some degree of accuracy.

There are also many reasons not to let your house freeze if it becomes your full time residence. Are you bringing nothing with you (particularly wood work or musical instruments) that may not favor freezing temps?

I recommend Wi-Fi thermostats to my customers so that equipment can be monitored while they are away. We had a customer who was out of town last winter and his thermostat emailed me that after hours of calling for heat, the temperature was dropping. We were able to reach the client who had somebody let us in. Problem solved long before they arrived home.
j

I do not know how to do a heat loss calculation myself. I am good with spreadsheets but don't know what formula to use. I tried to download the GeoDesigner software but my virus protection flagged it as unsafe. The contractor used that software to come up with the requirements. ...... The pellet stove is a Harman P68 and is 68,000 BTUs. My wood burning stove is a Lopi Revere and is rated at 72,400 BTU per hour, and overall efficiency of 70.4 % (Oregon method). Thanks for your input, Diane

I don't know how to calculate the costs of each. ... We have always winterized the house and when web remodeled, I stayed away from granite counter tops and ceramic tile as I was told it would not do well with freezing. We do have a great deal of wood inside. Wood floors, walls and ceilings, but have had no issues with the wood. ..... But as we bring more of our things here I am concerned about freezing. However, if we go to Florida for a few months, no matter what heating system we chose, I would winterize the plumbing in case of prolonged power failure. A few years ago the power was out for two weeks . I don't want a heating system at could not take that. I will check with my alarm system to see if a freeze alarm can be added to the system. I am looking into a local HVAC contractor to see if they would be able to come over with a generator if that we're to happen while we were away. We have three small generators, but no neighbors close by.

If the power is going to go out for days in the Winter, nothing short of an expensive and complex system is going to remedy that. Your best plan is to keep doing the winterization of the plumbing in case of heat loss. Get a ductless minisplit system installed and use the money you save for solar panels.

We did get a price for a mini split system three years ago when we redid the house. It was about 12,000 as I recall. So maybe we should revisit that idea. The one thing that was a concern is that they can fail to operate in very low temps and we do get low temps here. But with the two stoves maybe we don't have to worry about that too much.

12k for a 1400sf house???????? Pros, what 'should' it approx run for this size house?

The one thing that was a concern is that they can fail to operate in very low temps and we do get low temps here

Ductless minisplits still deliver heat down to -15F or even lower. The minisplit will probably heat you quite efficiently 99% of the time and you still have your wood heaters to take the edge off if it goes lower than -15F. Plus, you will have air conditioning for when it is hot.
If you are worried about what happens when you are gone, you can install a couple electric resistance heaters in the wall and set them to go on if the temperature drops too low. That way, you are covered if you have a deep cold snap and the minisplit can't operate.

If the power fails, there isn't much you can do about that. Everything requires electricity to operate, even a gas furnace. Keep winterizing the pipes when you leave for an extended period.

A ductless minisplit should cost a lot less than $12,000. I just got a 4 head system (one of the largest) for $8500, so yours should be less. And all this is much, much less than a geo system.

Ductless minisplits will also shut down if EAT is too low, but they don't risk freezing.

"12k for a 1400sf house???????? Pros, what 'should' it approx run for this size house?"
Robin,
Ductless splits parts only range from less than a thousand to more than $10,000. Without context, discussing price is like disscussing how much a non specific house or car can cost. I don't think someone is going to get a 4 head mini split with electrical work, installed by a licensed and insured electrician and mechanical contractor for $8,500.00 in my AO (or most for that matter).

If one wishes to winterize the house and not keep things in it that do not care to freeze, then I agree geo is not likely the best fit. The original conversation ...."We plan to sell our other home and move their full time." meant geo made a lot more sense than the follow up "When we move to Maine full time, we still plan to go to Florida for a few months in the winter."

If you go to FL during the coldest months, I think you might find with cost comparisons that something conventional might be the best option. No heat pump is going to want to bring a house up from at or near freezing to 70 so every trip home would start with the wood burner and pellet stove in the spring. However if you had a propane furnace and a split heat pump, you could activate the propane furnace via Wi-Fi thermostat before you arrived so you walk into a toasty house. The split heat pump could be air source or geo depending on how the numbers turn out. You could also predict whether a geo at 65 while you are away cost more to operate for the year than the hybrid system I mentioned.

If you know how much wood of what type and pellets you burned you could determine load by comparison to HDD (heating degree days). You also would have the contractors estimate load if you have his Geodesigner print out.

Joe.ami posted.....
"However if you had a propane furnace and a split heat pump, you could activate the propane furnace via Wi-Fi thermostat before you arrived so you walk into a toasty house. The split heat pump could be air source or geo depending on how the numbers turn out"

We had another installer over for estimates. He will work up prices for geo, mini splits and for a propane furnace with an air sourced heat pump. He has done quite a few of all three types and seemed to think the latter was a very good option for us. He said they are very efficient and also qualify for the 30 % tax credit. His company has been in business since the 70's and he has done about 15 geo installs. He admits that the first ones were sized way to big and he has learned from his mistakes. Much of his work was in a ski sort near here with multi million dollar second homes that are on the mountain tops. He is from this area so very familiar with the climate and possibility of power outages. He said for geo he would use a glycol closed loop system and we would only have no drain the condensation part if we left in the winter because the glycol would protect the system from damage if the power went out.
.......

Unfortunately we will not get his prices for about a month or more as he is very busy and he could not do the job until next year. Next year is fine for the install however.
....
Diane