A $2000 WaterFurnace rebate that will expire in three days (Sept. 27th, 2013): http://www.waterfurnace.com/perfectchoice/ I want to get this rebate, but I'm running out of time. Any ideas?

There goes my white space and paragraphs again. So irritating.

Posted By t5800512 on 23 Sep 2013 08:06 PM
A $2000 WaterFurnace rebate that will expire in three days (Sept. 27th, 2013): http://www.waterfurnace.com/perfectchoice/ I want to get this rebate, but I'm running out of time. Any ideas?

Call Eldon.  He'll make happen what you need as a customer.  He's by far the biggest WF dealer/installer in the 6 county area. 

Best regards,

Bill

I have talked to Eldon twice now. Both times he was going to get some prices together and get back to me. My last call to him was yesterday. So how long should I wait before I try him again?

I'm starting to wonder about WF. I got a list of local dealers off their website yesterday and called every one of them. About a third were non working numbers. Others went to a voice main box (did not leave a message). And the few that answered said something like "ya, I think we signed up with WF some time ago, but we have not done anything with them". So now I want to use that guy as my dealer? I think not.

I should have mentioned the dealers I mentioned above were listed with in 25 miles of my zip code. Today, I called WaterFurnace three different times and got a voice mail box each time. I hung up on the first two, but did leave a message for the regional representative asking about how the rebate works. What are the odds he will call me back. If he were doing his job, there would not be disconnected numbers on the local dealers list.

I also called Eldon again. He still did not have any numbers for me. He is such a super nice guy, it's not possible to be upset with him. But I think he is way overworked. He did say he had called his driller, who told him that he had already been out to talk to me. I'm pretty sure I had told him that, but it is really no big deal. Anyway, he is supposed to get back to me today. Want to place any bets?

I'm really hoping we can lock in the rebate. Otherwise, I will not pursue GSHP again for a while. I will patch up my, not so old, conventional A/C and wait for for the GSHP field to mature a little more. I put a hard start 5-2-1 on the compressor a week ago and it has stopped tripping the breaker. Hopefully the urgency has passed.

Posted By t5800512 on 23 Sep 2013 08:06 PM
A $2000 WaterFurnace rebate that will expire in three days (Sept. 27th, 2013): http://www.waterfurnace.com/perfectchoice/ I want to get this rebate, but I'm running out of time. Any ideas?

It is extended until Dec 20th.

Eldon did call me back with a price. The price was almost twice that I had expected it to be. So I've got to do some serious thinking. The system would take 17 years to pay back. Seriously, would the equipment even last 17 years.

When I ask Eldon about the rebate, he said he was not sold on it because WaterFurnace makes you load up on a bunch of stuff you don't really need. He also said that he has to contribute half of the rebate. Looking at the required accessories, I would choose the touch screen thermostat, the geolink flow control, and the AlpinePure 411 filter. Out of the three, the filter is the only thing I would not normally pay extra for.

But that does leave me with a couple questions.

First, I thought the 7 series came with the circulating pumps. WaterFurnace brags about the three variable speed motors, the compressor, the fan motor, and the circulating pumps. So how can they charge extra for the pumps. Eldon said he does not recommend paying extra for the variable circulating pumps.

Second question is kind of the same question about the touch screen thermostat. I guess it is more of a grumble than a real question. For the cost of the 7 series, how can it not include the high end thermostat?

With the 7 Series you can choose either the FC1-GL or FCV1-GL for the 7 series(or they make a two pump option also) and its up to the dealer to decide what they want to sell. The thermostat is the same way, you choose either the TPCC32U01 or the TCM, for all of our 7 Series systems we include the FCV1 and the TPCC32U01 with all control packages. You are also not required to buy the Alpine pure 411 filter for the rebate.
Its true the dealer does put in half so you should at least get a $1,000 rebate on a 7 Series.
When buying any WaterFurnace system it is put together and packaged based on what the installer sells you or gives you options on, but the flow center is not part of the unit. I select the size, configuration, desuperheater, control options, coil options and then waterfurnace builds the unit. Then I add on thermostat, flow center, air pad, connections kit and backup electric heat based on what the system needs(and of course loop)

Thank you for your reply. That is very helpful information. Of course, I will have to look up those part numbers to put it all together. My hope is that here in the Dallas area, I will not need to add the heat option.

The dealer I talked to here said he does not recommend the variable speed flow center. He said the extra cost was not worth the long term savings. So he only uses a single speed pump, even on the 7 series. That sounded odd to me because the variable speeds are the reason to buy the 7 series. Do you agree with his assessment?

Posted By t5800512 on 25 Sep 2013 01:48 AM
Thank you for your reply. That is very helpful information. Of course, I will have to look up those part numbers to put it all together. My hope is that here in the Dallas area, I will not need to add the heat option.

The dealer I talked to here said he does not recommend the variable speed flow center. He said the extra cost was not worth the long term savings. So he only uses a single speed pump, even on the 7 series. That sounded odd to me because the variable speeds are the reason to buy the 7 series. Do you agree with his assessment?

This dealer does not seem to understand how those systems work, and how to make them efficient. The 7 series runs about 3 times as long as a dual stage heatpump, putting about 6000 hours of runtime on the clock.
This one run about 1,900 hours since mid April.
http://welserver.com/WEL0713/
Why would you use a constant speed pump which uses a lot of energy and runs all the time. Compared to the average power consumption of the grundfos magma a 26-99 usues about 4 times as much energy, 6,000 hours a year.

As you can imagine, I was quite surprised at his conclusion. That is why I posted the question. And he is supposed to be the best geothermal installer in my area.

Hey, I like your WEL page. What I have seen before were block diagrams. Your looks like pictures with the WEL monitor imposed over it. When I setup my WEL monitor, I will have to get with you to find out how you did that. Way cool.

Hey Sky Heating & Air, thank you for spending a few minutes on the phone with me today. Your help was greatly appreciated!

t58, have you looked at other series (than the 7) and their payback?

Hey Joe, I have tried to call you twice to talk in person. Both times it went to voice mail and I did not leave a message.

Yes, I have looked into Bosch. It looks like a good unit but the efficiency ratings are disappointing. I have looked at CM, better efficiency, but nothing looks great compared to WF.

I'm now back to where I started, looking at the Carrier split unit. The GT-PCS is the ClimateMaster series. I can get it wholesale, and even though the efficiency is less than I had hoped for, it is affordable.

I you are the missed call from out of state. Don't mind talking to you if you wanna try in a couple hours. I don't tend to return calls from out of state without voice mail. Most tell me they can help me get better search engine recognition LOL.

One of the things in the geo efficiency game is depending on cost/kwh and installation they may only save 30 or 40 bucks a year between the "best" and "worst". Just as an airsource system is much less efficient when its 110 out, a geo with minimum design 95* max EWT may perform worse than a less efficient unit with a 75F max EWT (cooling dominated). I know you have spent a lot of time focused on price and the variable units, but have you researched what your operating cost savings will be (over a 2 stage unit)?
If the answer is "no" let's fall back and look at that for a moment.

You have to understand where I'm coming from to appreciate my frustration. I'm a Mechanical Engineer. I have been doing HVAC work for 30 years, even though it is not my bread and butter. I can buy from the local dealers. And even though it is rarely necessary, they do honor warrantee work through me.

Now I want to install a GSHP at my own house, and now I'm just a typical home owner. Everyone wants to talk down to me. The WF dealers insist on doing the install. Which I would not mind so much because I might pick up a few new tricks. But it is having to pay list price that is really getting to me.

When I decided to go to Geothermal, I decided I would have to pay a driller to the get the loops and manifolding done. But I expected to be able purchase and install my own equipment. But then I found WaterFurnace and got a bad case of the "I wants". I told myself that if I could install a WF 7 series for $10K I would go for it. But it looks like that is not happening.

So now I'm back to comparing two stage systems. When I compare the efficiency numbers, I look at closed loop, 70 degrees. The ground temp here is supposed to be 69 degrees, but after people have operated their systems for a year or two, they end up with an EWT in the low to mid 70's. That equated to an EER rating between 20 and 27 for the two stage systems. Some manufactures the EER drops to something like 18 for full speed. I can get that with air to air, so that is really not where I want to be.

You make an interesting point when you say $30 to $40 per year worst to best. Can it really be that little? I found a pretty good estimator at an Energy Star site. I will have to check it out. Because if you are correct, it completely changes the way I should be looking at this.

I'm skeptical of EWT running anywhere near just 5 degrees either side of undisturbed deep ground temperature. That may happen during shoulder season's sporadic short cycles but not during prime time.

EER 18 does NOT equal SEER 18...be sure to understand that when comparing air to water sourced systems. SEER is a happy fiction, imagining that air source systems operate with 82*F outdoor air and 80*F indoor air. High SEER air systems only achieve their high SEER in low stage. One has to dig a bit at the AHRI site to read EER values, and even the very best air source systems don't get anywhere near EER 18.

OTOH geo EER values don't incorporate water pumping power other than the small pressure drop through the geo system's water side heat exchanger.

As a Mech E, all this stuff should be right up your ally, but you have to dig a bit to understand these systems. The air distribution (duct work) and load (building envelope) both matter hugely.

While I completely understand the sex appeal of a 40 EER heat pump to an engineer (I, an engineer and WF dealer, want one too!), it is asinine to buy and install one without properly accounting for:

1) Actual building heating and cooling load (and opportunities to reduce both)
2) water pumping power system will consume as installed (and, again, opportunities to reduce it)
3) air distribution (blower power, duct capacity, air delivered to each zone / room)
4) Realistic accounting for actual site water temperature and flow departures from standard rating conditions
5) Honest calculation / comparison of annual operating costs among alternative systems.

My own 5 year old 3 ton 2 stage 4 zone WF Envision (now rebadged "Series 5") costs me about $300 per year to heat and cool our 3500 SF NoFla home and offsets about half our otherwise $200 annual water heating bill. A Series 7 might save me an additional $50 / year, tops. Nice? yes, cost effective? probably not.

My four zone system might fare a bit better than it does now (minor compromises only a discerning HVAC guy notices) with Series 7 greater turndown compared with conventional two stage system, but it would be hard to justify the extra $ Series 7 commands on savings and zoning issues alone.

Water Furnace Dealers are have protected territories and are likely not permitted to sell OTC. The WF business model is to suggest superior dealer training.....that might go out the window if they sold otc. To them you are "just another homeowner."
My friends and neighbors may pay a litte bit less than some, but a MechEng who called me out of the blue would not be entitled to discount.

Operating cost differences will depend on cost/kwh, design and load. You can get the same or lower operating cost than the 7 by spending some of the extra money on something else (i.e. further load mitigation, more ground loop......)

Hey Curt, You are so right, thank you for the reality check. And as for the air-to-air efficiency numbers, I did confuse SEER with EER. I don't know why, I know the difference. It has not been to long since I caught someone else making the same mistake.

Yes, I want the 41 EER of the series 7 (not that I would see that anyway). But it more than that. With the Aurora controls, the 7 series monitors about everything meaningful on a WSHP. And I really like that sometime in the future it will be possible on monitor it over the internet. It may even be possible to tie it into a WEL monitoring system without purchasing and installing a lot of extra sensors. It is the perfect gadget for a techno geek like me. I'm sure you understand.

Hey Joe, I always appreciate your comments. I have been thinking the same thing about the ground loops. Here, 4 loops at 300 feet deep is considered adequate for a 4 ton GSHP. I have been considering having the loops drilled to 400 feet. It would cost more, but may pay back in efficiency savings. But then I start wondering if the increased head pressure added my the additional length would cost more to circulate, thus negating any gains. But with one more ton of loop capacity, it would be less likely to build up a heat island effect.

My ducting is fine. It is built into a fur down that starts in the hall where my air handler is, and it runs the length of the house with vents on both sides for the rooms. The main duct is probably 12 inches tall, and 42 inches wide (the width of the hall). And it is insulated above in the attic. I don't think I could improve on it.