I guess the trouble is I was quoted the 3 ton Envision NDV038 but it was referred to as the 5 Series. I had asked the 7 Series and got a revised quote for about $7,000 more. So one question is is it legitimate to continue selling the NDV038 these days and another question is is $7,000 a legitimate increase for the 7?

The retail is about $5K more, plus $1K for the variable speed flowcenter….plus it need a slightly larger loopfield, about 20% more.

That's about right then although the new quote didn't mention an increase of the two 225 foot wells. Thanks, doc.

Soundless, first the NDV038 is the 5 series... it is also the Envision. In the middle of the model number a digit changed when it became the 5 series so NDV038 could mean either one. It its 2 years old its an Envision and if its new then its a 5 series.

For the 7 we are about $3,500 more than a 5 Series with all options and I have yet to see it needing a longer loop in my area. I just checked the GeoLink software and on a 410 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack in the software, the 7 series showed it need a whopping 5' more of pipe or 415 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack.

Keep in mind for pricing there are a LOT of options available on the 5 series so $7,000 could be normal price.
The 5 series can be single or dual stage
X13 motor or variable speed
AXB or no AXB
Heat Strips or no heat strips
Desuperheater or not
single pump or two pump or variable speed pump
TPCC32U01 thermostat or standard thermostat
10 year parts and labor or 5 year parts and labor

So when I say $3,500 difference that means that I sell a 5 series with ALL upgrade packages and options and it costs about $3,500 more to go with a 7 series with all packages and options and variable speed flow center after rebate. Keep in mind there is a $2,000 rebate on a 7 series and $1,000 on a 5 Series until december 31st, if your dealer decides to offer this promotion(its up the the dealer to decide since they have to pay for part of the rebate)

Lets say the 7 series is about 25% more efficient, and about 20-25% of the total is compressor heat (COP of 4-5), that means it takes about 5% more heat out of the ground loop over the season. That does not mean the total loop has to be that much bigger. But loops we buy in multipliers of 100'. If I have 600' coils I am not cutting of 15' off because a loop software tells me that 585' circuits would be enough. I always round it up to a multiplier of 600'. Simple to do for me, always good for the customer.

Posted By SkyHeating on 14 Nov 2013 07:25 PM
Soundless, first the NDV038 is the 5 series... it is also the Envision. In the middle of the model number a digit changed when it became the 5 series so NDV038 could mean either one. It its 2 years old its an Envision and if its new then its a 5 series.

For the 7 we are about $3,500 more than a 5 Series with all options and I have yet to see it needing a longer loop in my area. I just checked the GeoLink software and on a 410 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack in the software, the 7 series showed it need a whopping 5' more of pipe or 415 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack.

Keep in mind for pricing there are a LOT of options available on the 5 series so $7,000 could be normal price.
The 5 series can be single or dual stage
X13 motor or variable speed
AXB or no AXB
Heat Strips or no heat strips
Desuperheater or not
single pump or two pump or variable speed pump
TPCC32U01 thermostat or standard thermostat
10 year parts and labor or 5 year parts and labor

So when I say $3,500 difference that means that I sell a 5 series with ALL upgrade packages and options and it costs about $3,500 more to go with a 7 series with all packages and options and variable speed flow center after rebate. Keep in mind there is a $2,000 rebate on a 7 series and $1,000 on a 5 Series until december 31st, if your dealer decides to offer this promotion(its up the the dealer to decide since they have to pay for part of the rebate)

The way the rebate goes is that $1000 comes from Waterfurnace and $1000 comes from the installer. I always wondered why Waterfurnace thinks that the installers costs and overhead decreased by $1000 for the time they have their promotion going….

SkyHeating, thanks for the explanation. Neither quotation specifies the air handler motor or the control option. I did not realize these were options. Everything else you mentioned were specified in the original quote (NDV038) but not in the quote for the 7 Series.
There was no mention of the rebate for the 7. Actually the only thing mentioned was the price. Maybe I was supposed to be scared off by the price and no further detail was necessary.

Posted By docjenser on 15 Nov 2013 11:43 AM

Posted By SkyHeating on 14 Nov 2013 07:25 PM
Soundless, first the NDV038 is the 5 series... it is also the Envision. In the middle of the model number a digit changed when it became the 5 series so NDV038 could mean either one. It its 2 years old its an Envision and if its new then its a 5 series.

For the 7 we are about $3,500 more than a 5 Series with all options and I have yet to see it needing a longer loop in my area. I just checked the GeoLink software and on a 410 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack in the software, the 7 series showed it need a whopping 5' more of pipe or 415 foot 6 pipe horizontal racetrack.

Keep in mind for pricing there are a LOT of options available on the 5 series so $7,000 could be normal price.
The 5 series can be single or dual stage
X13 motor or variable speed
AXB or no AXB
Heat Strips or no heat strips
Desuperheater or not
single pump or two pump or variable speed pump
TPCC32U01 thermostat or standard thermostat
10 year parts and labor or 5 year parts and labor

So when I say $3,500 difference that means that I sell a 5 series with ALL upgrade packages and options and it costs about $3,500 more to go with a 7 series with all packages and options and variable speed flow center after rebate. Keep in mind there is a $2,000 rebate on a 7 series and $1,000 on a 5 Series until december 31st, if your dealer decides to offer this promotion(its up the the dealer to decide since they have to pay for part of the rebate)

The way the rebate goes is that $1000 comes from Waterfurnace and $1000 comes from the installer. I always wondered why Waterfurnace thinks that the installers costs and overhead decreased by $1000 for the time they have their promotion going….

Yeah I didn't want to throw their contractor under the bus that quickly which is why I always say its up to the dealer to decide. Most will just mark up the price $1,000 to cover their portion this is what auto dealers and everybody else does.

As for the loops I don't think anybody would cut off loop if they have it. I was just showing the loop sizes from geolink to show they were the same. We always us the 400 or 500 or 600 or 800 loops at full length.