I've had persistant issues with my Geo system. 1. Persistant pulsating noise from compressor goes throughout the house, but mostly heard in the room closet to the GEO unit 2. The system is very noisy in general, even during stage 1, heavy blowing noise from the ducts. Stage 2 fan is practically a wind tunnel. 3. Costs - the monthly bills have been higher than expected. Caveat is that the house has been under various stages of construction during the first 2 years. In Sept '13 new windows were installed and house pretty much sealed up. I can share my energy bill usage by hour/day/year also overlayed with weather if needed. 4. Unit seems to run alot. Though I haven't actually timed it. 1) Where you live - Near Philadelphia, PA 2) Heat loss/gain calculations for your home 3) Brand, size (model), age and type of heat pump Bosch, 4 ton Model TA-049-1VT, 2 years, Variable Speed 2-stage geothermal heat pump system 4) Type of loop field (open/closed/vertical/horizontal) size and design parameters Closed loop vertical 3 wells, total 640' 5) Average cost/Kwh of electricity and consumption .09/kwh 2093.41 avg consumption 6) Entering and leaving air temperatures (EAT, LAT) measured immediately upstream and downstream of the heatpump 7) Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the geo system 8) Percent of load to be covered by geo and balance point Load 90.5% Balance Point 37F 9) Installer's assessment of your systems operation. Working as designed 10) Projected operating costs, actual operating cost and previous heating and cooling costs Projected Costs Heating: $1,689 Cooling: $330 Hot Water: $244 Total $2,262 Actual Total 2 months 634.24 Year 1 4086.78 Year 2 3369.79

http://welserver.com/WEL0601/

I just looked up one of our 4 ton systems, and it used $1028 and had a runtime of 3614 hours, costing $0.29/hour. Applying the same to your numbers, this would either imply a runtime over 10,000 hours, which is close to impossible.

So the only way this is possible is heavy supplement electric heat use, and may be single electric hot water tank, and inefficient pumping.

More info needed. What circulations pumps do you have, how many, how many hot water tanks do you have?

http://welserver.com/WEL0601/

I just looked up one of our 4 ton systems, and it used $1028 and had a runtime of 3614 hours, costing $0.29/hour. Applying the same to your numbers, this would either imply a runtime over 10,000 hours, which is close to impossible.

So the only way this is possible is heavy supplement electric heat use, and may be single electric hot water tank, and inefficient pumping.

More info needed. What circulations pumps do you have, how many, how many hot water tanks do you have?

Also, (non professional here), about how big is your house in terms of sq. feet?

Is your system zoned in any way?

December was a particularly cold month here in Bucks County. But even so, my 2100 sq.ft. cost $700 for the whole year for heat/cool/hot water.

The wind tunnel noise suggests duct size issues and/or fan speeds and/or zoning.....too much air for the duct work.

And your balance point is 37? That seems quite high. For comparison, mine is 15, which means that the geo can heat the house without any aux heat until the outside temp gets below 15.

Edit: your balance point is 15 for the geo. That's pretty typical.

Heat load would be interesting, balance point could be a bit high. I agree that description suggests duct issues. " various stages of construction" certainly could have an impact on high electric bills. We need more info. I would suggest purchase of a WEL or an Ecobee thermostat. EWT/LWT, EAT/LAT would be interesting and are not that difficult to determine.

Sq ft is approximately 1650 on the first floor, with a basement that is served by 2 ducts but just supplemental until radiant floor heat goes in.

Geo Designer report
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jn6wdmb30wy9116/Bosch_Energy.pdf

Some background on the house:
Mid 50's stick built, mostly a glass house with a flat roof. I've been renovating it extensively over the last 2 years. Up until Sept '13 the house had loosely insulated walls and 3/4 wall height single pane glass throughout the house. I put 4" of OC foam in the ceiling, replaced fiberglass batts and foamed gaps in remaining walls added a 1/2" of rigid insulation on the exterior. New flat roof with with at least 4 1/2" rigid insulation with small uninsulated attic above. New windows through the house. Replaced most of single pane 3/4 walls with floor to ceiling sliders.

I am accepting that the past 2 years have been reasons for higher bills, but now that the house is mostly tight, I expected to see a good reduction, but it's been almost the same if not a little higher than with single plane glass and no insulation.

I have a Honeywell smart thermostat, and I can get the EAT/LAT during a cycle. I don't know how to get the EWT/LWT since that comes from a separate unit

System description
BOSCH 4-ton Variable Speed 2-stage geothermal heat pump system Model TA-049-1VTC with an up-flow right hand return configuration. This system will include 14.8 KW of Auxiliary supplemental heat.

o This is FHP (Bosch) Premier geothermal heat pump system and offers ultra quiet and ultra efficient operation with balanced comfort control
o This geothermal system is the most efficient R-410A system offered by the industry today.
o The system includes a special “Dehumidification” function monitored and controlled for optimal comfort during the cooling season.
o The Arzel total comfort control pneumatic air zoning control system with bladder actuated air duct dampers with a 100 % shut off engineered design.
o The Healthy Climate MERV 16 air filtration system for clean efficient system operation and mold protection, filtration at 99% of 10 micron particles.
o Honeywell Prestige IAQ comfort command control center for optimum indoor climate control for not only temperature but also humidity. With Remote Control x 2 with zoning.
o New Bradford White domestic hot water 120 gallon buffer domestic water heater Combined with the installation of a new Bradford White 120 gallon electric water heater for an increased total capacity. This domestic hot water system will
be integrated with the BOSCH 3-ton Water to Water 2 stage geothermal hydronic heat pump system Model # WT-036-USC to supply dedicated geothermal “on demand” domestic hot water for your home.
o Radiant in floor heating system to heat the basement floor and also supply radiant heat to the master bath / shower on the first floor. The radiant in floor heat will consist of (2) two separate zones.

Here is a graph of useage and weather from last week. Note this is total electric, not just GEO

Do you have a break out for the geo electric usage?

Unfortunately I don't. I don't really know how to go about that without a separate meter.

I'm not a pro.... but not alot of hard data to go on here. But consider this: when your geo is running on stage 2, it pulls about 3.2 KW. (stage 1 is probably around 2.5 KW). Your average overall house electric use seems to be much higher then this. I'm not sure I would 'blame' the Bosch Geo system just yet.... but it's really difficult to say without some actual data. (A AC clamp on current meter goes along way, but if you are not comfortable working around electric then it's probably not much help. Harbor Freight has a few really cheap ones that are 'good enough' to get you in the ball park) There are a few electric monitoring systems on the market if you really want to start collecting actual electric usage. Current Cost; TED; egauge; (just to name a few)

Thanks for the tip about the current meter. I will grab one.

Also thanks for the general kw use of the geo unit. That's helpful. Though it doesn't fully make sense high kw use at off hours (i.e. 9kw at 5 AM @ 2° F)

That is probably the aux heat kicking on. ie part of the 14.8 KW resistance heat element. That would be pretty normal given the cold temp outside and your balance point.

So how do you heat your radiant floors? What you are describing is the marketing tone for your heatpumps. First, the Bosch are not the most efficient ones in the industry, but they have become pretty good.
SYSTEM efficiency also depends on the design and the materials used. Also, if I am not mistaken, the TA series is an older Florida Heatpump design. So NO, this is not the most efficient in the industry.
You design looks not very efficient at first, just let us know what flowcenter, how do you make hot water for your radiant floors, 240 gallons for domestic hot water, correct?

So, I'm the opposite of an expert, but with a big buffer tank that needs maintaining at a certain temp, the usage won't exactly mirror usage, right? Can you bump the temp down for 5-6 hours so there's definitely no call for aux heat, and see what that does to usage?

The only part of the radiant floor system that is currently hooked up is the bathroom floor. The basement has not been finished yet. So right now the W/W unit just makes DHW and I guess heats the heat exchanger for the radiant floor in the bathroom.

I'm not sure about the efficiency of the unit. FWIW it was awarded Energy Star most efficient 2011 and 2012. I purchased the units in 2011.

I'll try to draw up a diagram of the system.

Report says TA061 on 921' of bore lenght.

You have TA049 and WT036 on 640' in 3 wells. That's only 90' per ton.

Zoned air system probably with insufficient ducting is making all the noise. You have put up with the noise for 2 years?

240 gal that's a lot of water to keep warm. What temp are you keeping the DHW at?

Chris

47F balance point? Is that typical for your area? System seems about right sized for the cooling load, heating load suggests you neeed all 7 tons and then some.

Sorry, and additional 320 was drilled for the WT036

I think the designer says 37° balance point. If that is the point at which the aux heat kicks in, it was set to 30° during the install.
Water temp is set to 120 on the unit. Also we shut off the Aux water heat to see if that cut usage down, and solely used the geo to heat the main and buffer tanks. I think it has been much more consistent. So maybe the tank aux heat balance point was too high?

Not an expert, but my thermostat was calling for auxiliary heat way too frequently. My suggestion for a test for you would be to set the cutoff point for the aux at 10 degrees (or lower) and see if the system can keep up, and if it reduces your electric usage. Odds are your high usage is mostly from the electric heat, and it is possible the thermostat is set too aggressively.

I'm assuming you have an external thermometer that interacts with the thermostat. Otherwise changing the cutoff point won't matter. On a related note my external thermostat went on the fritz after about 2 years of use and I had to replace it, so that could be another possible issue.

Heat exchanger for radiant floors??? Aux water heat? Please elaborate! That is kind of unusual.


So you have a heating load of 110,000 BTUs, and your 4 ton makes about 38,000 BTUs, apparently you are covering the rest currently with electric resistant heat.


All of this would indicate a very inefficient design, and explain your high electric bills.