Geo Circulation Pump Energy Use
Last Post 25 Sep 2020 07:56 PM by sailawayrb. 6 Replies.
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hausfxrUser is Offline
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19 Sep 2020 07:28 AM
We had a 4-ton ground source Water Furnace heat pump installed three years ago for our potable hot water and in-floor heating. The pump from the HP unit to our water tank runs continuously. After the installation, we contacted the HVAC contractor to enquire about the potential energy waste and I was told that the pump uses only a few pennies worth of electricity each day and that WF heat pumps have to run this way. Apparently, the sensor for the tank temperature cannot be located within the tank and must be located on the circulation pipe, so that it can read an average tank temperature… The hot water tank is a 100 gallon solar type with a separate coil inside that the HP’s water circulates through.

I took the contractors word for the need for the motor running continuously, but a recent event has made me question this. We went on a two-week vacation and we typically shut the HP off in the summer while we are away. Just before we left, my wife asked if I’d turned off the HP and I told her no, so she went to do it, but instead of throwing the breaker, as I usually do, she turned the water temperature down to 70 degrees. On my final check of the house, I looked at the electric panel to see if she had turned it off, saw that she had not, and threw the breaker and thought no more of it. When we returned after two weeks, I turned the HP’s breaker on. My wife noticed the following morning that the bath water temperature was not yet very hot, so I checked to see what was up and noticed the temperature was set to 70 degrees. However, the tank’s temperature read 96 degrees. I inquired with my wife to see if she had changed the temperature and quickly deduced what had occurred. I had not set the temperature up to the 115 degrees we normally have it set to in the summer (completely arbitrary temperature) yet, but I was curious as what was allowing the water to be at 96 degrees, and this was after my wife had taken a short cool shower. My first thought was, could it be the pump? So I did not increase the temperature setting and then observed the temperature over the next 24 hours. It slowly made its way up to 101 degrees.

My questions are these:

1. Can this be the pump causing the heat rise? I have no separate current meter to verify that the heat pump did not come on over that observed 24 hours, but the heat pump can raise the water tank’s temperature from room temperature to 115 degrees in less than 20 minutes and I did not notice any short-cycling of the HP. And, we have never needed the hot water tank’s electric heating element backup, even on the coldest winter nights, so it has always remained off at the breaker.

2. Does this pump really only cost pennies a day to run?

3. If it is the pump that adds the excess heat, then why does Water Furnace design their units this way? Especially considering that the goal of efficiency in installing a HP comes from the fact that you extract the heat from the earth and use less electricity input to do that? But, running the pump has a one-to-one conversion of the energy input. And, that motor feels hot, so, in the summer, we are wasting energy to the air through the motor and the circulation pipe, to say nothing of possibly wearing out the pump faster.

4. I have no idea whether the heat pump system is living up to the efficiency the contractor touted – an estimated $450 in electricity to run it each year. We have a 6-kilawatt PV system that covers all of our heating and electricity uses with net-metering up until March, when the electric company takes back any credits and starts the credit year over. The PV in our cloudy/rainy NW spring does not cover our electricity use in March and April. Those two months have averaged $105 electric cost combined, so that is our entire energy bill for the year (instead, we have $17k we added to our mortgage for cost of the PV and HP after the energy incentives). I mention this because I’m not sure if there is any reason to be concerned about the Water Furnace’s inherent design flaw considering we (almost) met our original design goal of net-zero energy use - we did not do our homework and did not know that the electric company took back energy credits in March. However, our furnace room is always hotter than any other room from the water tank and piping exposure (every pipe is insulated as best as possible) and that warms our night-air flushed cooled house during the summer days in contradiction to our attempts to keep it cool, so I would have prefered to eliminate even that small amount of excess heat that comes from the HP – So, did we make a mistake in going with a Water Furnace unit?
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19 Sep 2020 04:45 PM
If the electric pump load is fairly constant and if you have a voltmeter and ammeter (or you can plug pump into a Power Meter that are readily available for low cost these days), you could determine the real power used and the associated daily operating cost. Real power used (in Watts) is approximately volts times amps times power factor (typically about 0.75). Associated daily operating cost in dollars would be the real power used (in Watts) times hours run per day (24 if constantly running) divided by 1000 times your electricity cost in $/kW hour. If you don’t have a voltmeter and ammeter but know the pump HP, you can grossly estimate about 2000 watts per HP and use that for the power used value.

We don’t comment on specific brands of HVAC equipment online. I will say in general however, that ground source heat pump systems (also often mistakenly called Geothermal systems…like what you could have if you lived in Yellowstone) don’t typically have a positive Return-on-Investment (ROI) unless you have some combination of low energy efficiency building construction and/or live in a very cold climate. As an example, we heat our highly energy efficient 4000 sf of living space located in southern Oregon using a $1200 electric boiler (having a COP of 1.0) specifically designed for hydronic radiant floor heating for at most $30 per month. We only need heat for about 6 months per year, so our annual heating cost is at most about $180 per year. If we were to use a ground source heat pump system that say cost $16,200, we could reduce our annual heating cost to say about $30 per year (assuming an unrealistically high ground source heat pump COP of 6.0). That would be an annual heating cost savings of $150 per year. However, it would have cost us $15,000 ($16,200 - $1,200) more upfront to do this. So it would take us 100 years ($15,000 divided by $150 savings per year) to break even from a ROI perspective if we had done this. And the life of a complicated ground source heat pump is shorter than that of a simple electric boiler and no where near 100 years. So from a ROI perspective, it is usually better to spend your money on improving the FOREVER energy efficiency of your building than spending it on expensive shorter life HVAC solutions that don’t have a positive ROI. You can use this calculator to accomplish an accurate ROI analysis:

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Integrated_Heating_System_Performance_Calculator.html

Water Furnace has been discussed many times on GBT forum previously and a quick Google search came up with these threads:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/13/aft/84722/afv/topic/afpg/2/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/13/aft/78225/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topic/aff/13/aft/61770/afpg/5/Default.aspx
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22 Sep 2020 12:30 PM
Posted By hausfxr on 19 Sep 2020 07:28 AM
so, in the summer, we are wasting energy to the air through the motor and the circulation pipe, to say nothing of possibly wearing out the pump faster.


Those Grundfos circulator pumps have a water cooled motor, not air cooled. So you maybe losing some heat to the air but most goes into the water. With no heat being extracted the field can build up heat from the pump.
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23 Sep 2020 11:35 AM
I had a water to water HP. We put the sensor on the tank by removing the cover for the electric element. We slid the sensor under the insulation and made sure it was in good contact with the tank.
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25 Sep 2020 02:01 AM
Posted By ChrisJ on 23 Sep 2020 11:35 AM
I had a water to water HP. We put the sensor on the tank by removing the cover for the electric element. We slid the sensor under the insulation and made sure it was in good contact with the tank.
Chris, did you have a professional move the sensor, and do you mean your circulation pump did not need to be running continuously?

Bob, Thanks for the reply. I’ll look into doing an actual power use measurement – my voltmeter experience has been confined diagnosing car problems.

Our motivation for making our house more energy efficient was entirely to use less fossil fuels and electric grid power, so return on investment was never brought into the equation, except with the PV array – we wanted to not produce more electricity than we used, so sizing of the PV system was important and, unlike the heat pump, of the three companies that gave us PV bids, all of their sales pitches were concerned with how soon the system could pay for itself. And to your point of concentrating on insulation first – our skinny two-story 1909 house had no subsheathing (it would shake dramatically in high winds) and in our extreme seismic zone, we wanted to know it would survive a major earthquake, so we removed all the old ratty siding and doubled up the outside wall studs to make 8” to 12” deep walls, put sheathing on… basically, we improved it to a relatively tight envelope (0.8 ACH – but we replaced most of the existing double hung windows in kind to keep the historic character, so that, as the guy who did the testing showed us repeatedly with cold smoke, was our weakest link), which was a difficult task with an irregularly shaped old house.

We put in the ground loop pipes in 2009 when we replaced our house’s foundation, and at that time there were no small residential air-to-water heat pumps available in the U.S., and we did not install the heat pump until 2017. If we had to do it again, we would install an air-to-water heat pump and forgo the ground source expense and contractor hassles. We got 3 bids for the water heat pump and the sizing, system design, and costs varied enormously, so it made it impossible to decide what the best route was. And no HVAC contractor ever mentioned alternative systems and ROI – their job was to sell us a ground source heat pump and nothing else.

I am in complete agreement with your arguments against ground source heating in a mild environment. I do primarily residential design, and I regularly advise people not to install GS in favor an air-source heat pump (or gas, when they have no interest in reducing their CO2 impact). And, I always start with better insulation/envelope design, but more often than not, any improved insulation or higher performing windows get nixed by the contractor during construction – anything more than code minimum makes zero sense to their profit margin, but occasionally they do return a percentage of the installation cost savings back to the client or you get a client who see its benefits (ROI) and insists they stick to their original contractual obligations.

I whole heatedly applaud what it appears you do and your business model. If there are any contractors who do the equivalent in the Portland area that you’d recommend, I’d love to know about them.

As to your not being able to comment on how heat pump units work and their efficiencies, I understand, especially if you sell Water Furnace products, and you would not want to risk denigrating their reputation and losing a positive relationship with the company. What I did not ask in my post was whether the Water Furnace control system could be controlled differently and whether it would be worth contacting a different HVAC contractor to see if the system could be modified – I guess I was really asking if my contractor was maybe misinformed about the possible ways our system could be controlled and if the pump can be set up to run only when the heat pump is operating. But, again, I realize that giving such advise might be construed as impugning the reputation of the contractor… If Water Furnace systems do require the continuously running pumps, then I would not want a contractor to jury-rig our system, just because I asked them to.

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ChrisJUser is Offline
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25 Sep 2020 01:36 PM
"Chris, did you have a professional move the sensor, and do you mean your circulation pump did not need to be running continuously?"

"I guess I was really asking if my contractor was maybe misinformed about the possible ways our system could be controlled and if the pump can be set up to run only when the heat pump is operating."

He is misinformed....No reason the pump should run all the time. When the sensor requires the heat pump to come on, the circulator should be turning on at the same time.

Do you have an install manual? What is the model number?

Asking your questions at https://www.geoexchange.org/forum/ will probably get more answers.

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25 Sep 2020 07:56 PM
I fully concur with Chris…

We have never designed, sold or have ever gotten even remotely involved with ground source heat pump systems... These days we largely only do passive solar cooling/heating design, hydronic floor heating design and water work projects (water right applications, hydraulic ram pumps, hydropower, fish screen bypass tanks, etc).

Unfortunately, we don’t have any good recommendations for HVAC contractors in your Portland area. If you are considering ICF construction in your Portland area, we frequently work with Better Builders of Oregon…Jerry Spivey, to accomplish the hydronic radiant floor heating system design for their construction clients.
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