drao
New Member
Posts:63
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22 Aug 2009 11:03 AM |
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Hi, I am writing for your opinion on my Earthlinked DX units installed in Aug 2008. I have 3 units(2 ton ,4 ton and 5ton)-11- 50 ft umbrella loops were installed for my 8600 sq ft home(including basement). It is an all brick home in Michigan with cellouse insulation built in 2005 and retrofitted with geothermal. It even has low E windows and Therma Tru door, also attic insulation all through the home topped up 6 inches this May. I am extremely frustrated. I have 4 zones in the house. I have no problem with the comfort level(72 degs inside in winter and 75 degs inside in summer. My big problem is the utility bill which went from $4400 for the entire year to $6300 annual after the geothermal system was installed. My february 2009 bill was a whopping $1050 . My contractor has come in several times and even redug my yard to fix the problem and no solution yet. I now have sub meters on my three units and even with a very cool to moderate summer the units guzzle electricity. ! For instance my 4 ton unit that services the 2nd floor and basement consumed 48 kwh on a 81 deg day and with my basement never calling for a/c since it always between 72 and 73 degs there. I am getting no prompt response from the company(the contractor is certified by them). They sent a tech guy from the company(Russ) in March and he inspected all systems and suggested different modifications and some loop redigs and refrigerant reinfusion all of which was performed promptly by my contractor. still no resolution. I am actually considering legal action against the company and all invoved. Please advise.
Thanks
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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22 Aug 2009 11:45 AM |
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I agree that electricity consumption seems high.
You have a lot of house and a lot of tonnage. Also, bear in mind last winter was particularly cold in many areas.
What fuel did you have before geo and how much did it cost you?
What are you paying per kwh?
What did the system design predict would be your cost / power consumption? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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22 Aug 2009 12:31 PM |
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I would start by verifying your units are within spec with respect to power consumptions. Are you handy enough to obtain current draw measurements for your three units? Something like:
Unit #1 (X tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps Unit #2 (Y tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps Unit #3 (Z tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps
Likewise for 2nd stage.
Your units should have some manufacturer specs that you can check these against.
If these are fine, then I would next look to see if your units are producing the correct cooling capacity, first in 1st stage, then in 2nd stage. This should be easy to measure on a one time basis, or, easy to continuously monitor with some instrumentation. If you want to do this yourself, there are many here who can articulate the temperature and power measurements needed along with the calculations.
If these two subjects are fine, then I would next look to see if you have excessive run time. If so, you can conclude you have structure envelope problems. And that you really are saving (a lot) of money compared to if you had conventional heat/AC.
I would think the first two subjects I suggest above would be straight forward for an HVAC professional to not only determine, but to demonstrate to you that all is fine with respect to the specific HVAC equipment. The calculations to determine cooling capacity, for example, on either the air output side, or the refrigerant input side, only require a few temperature and power measurements.
Good luck.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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22 Aug 2009 12:46 PM |
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I just recieved a notice from earthlinked that some of the units were shipped with wrong compressor capacitors which lets them operate but uses inordinant amount of electricity. Have contractor check that. You are proximate to schwartz creek which has the largest dealer in mi. If that is your installer you are in the best possible hands. If it is not then find them. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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22 Aug 2009 01:15 PM |
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Hi, Thank you for taking time to resolve my problem. To answer your first question, I had natural gas heating in my home prevously(from 2005 to 2008 Aug)
During summer(June to September), beyond 20 kwh/ day(600 kwh for 30 days) the charges for electricity are 9.9cents per kwh and upto 600 kwh, 6.25 cents per kwh. During other months it is a flat 6.25cents per kwh.
According to the energy cost analysis provided by my contractor, the total system is not expected to cost more than $970.20 in electric bills . I don't even have a de superheater (use natural gas for hot water and cooking even now) . So, what's the diagnosis? I will have to consult my contractor for amp draws etc. I was told on installation that my units are sized for heat(I live in Michigan) and hence oversized and highly efficient for a/c. None of that has happened so far. Also, after I had the sub meters installed, I have found that my main meter has consumed 801kwh in 6 days! Total submeter readings are 489 kwh ie 61% of the total electricity consumed. Interestingly, as my geothermal units consume more energy when outside temps are high, my mainmeter reads(other than submeter totals) also go up, indicating that the problem is not just at the equipment level, ie also with associated equipment, because anyone could easily deduce that I would not turn on more lights as it gets warmer outside. Your thoughts please! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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22 Aug 2009 01:19 PM |
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If you are referring to Brian Garno from Garno brothers, he installed my units and is truly the best. He has already checked my capacitors ansd states that they appear fine. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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22 Aug 2009 02:44 PM |
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You mention sub meters on the 3 units. Does that include the airhandlers? If not that would increase usage on the main meter in hot weather. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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22 Aug 2009 07:03 PM |
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My sub meters are measuring kwh on the units alone. Does not include airhandlers.
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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22 Aug 2009 07:27 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/22/2009 7:03 PM My sub meters are measuring kwh on the units alone. Does not include airhandlers.
While I'm very familiar with submeters (have 3 at my residence), I'm not familiar with Earthlink DX HVAC equipment. For each Earthlink DX GSHP 'unit,' does it come as two separate pieces of equipment? I.e., one 'box' for the compressor that connects to all of the copper tubes in the ground, and anther 'box' with the blower fan motor in it? Thus, in your case, do you have six 'boxes?' (And 3 of which are monitored by submeters?) And further, are the blower fan motors ECM or PSC? Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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22 Aug 2009 08:16 PM |
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Without answers to some of the questions above, still, it may be possible to offer a reasonable guess on where the problem is.
If I understand your numbers correctly, you consumed 489 KWH just for HVAC purposes, for a 6 day period. That's 82 KWH per day, on average.
As a comparison, I have what I and many others believe to be a well functioning GSHP implementation, here in the blistering heat of Dallas. It's conventional water technology, not DX, so it may not be producing the best of DX-technology performance, but it's probably 'in the ball park.'
I also have an instrumentation system, so I have access to a lot of performance numbers.
For last month, July, I consumed 1174 KWH just for HVAC, which is 38 KWH per day on average.
To rationalize your 82 KWH/day and my 38 KWH/day numbers, we can use the square footage of our residences. Your residence is 8600 sf - mine is 3400. Thus, you've got a 9.5 KWH/day/Ksf number, and I've got an 11 KWH/day/Ksf number.
If you assume your basement is not conditioned, and it's about 1400 sf, then your 9.5 KWH/day/Ksf number changes to the same as mine: 11 KWH/day/Ksf.
The next step is one where I don't have enough information to finish - rationalize your 11 KWH/day/Ksf number to your climate. My 11KWH/day/KSF was for a July climate with many 100°+ days. I don't know if you have it this hot.
One way to do this rationalization is to use Cooling Degree Days. For example, for the same measurement period for me (July), I had 644 CDDs, which is 21 CDDs per day. On a per CDD basis, then, using my 11 KWH/day/Ksf number, it becomes 0.53 KWH/day/Ksf/CDD.
Perhaps you can look up your CDDs for the same 6 day period you measured your KWH. If so, you can get an average number of CDDs per day for the 6 day period, and similarly rationaize your 11 KWH/day/Ksf number.
Finally, let's say that for some strange reason it was very hot in Michigan, during your 6 day measurement period, such that your CDDs per day average was close to 21. Then you'd know that your equipment performance is at least to the same as the most current model WF conventional water technology GSHP units. And thus your problem is most like the residential structure envelope.
But, let's say, as another example, your CDDs per day average is half of what it's here in Texas at the moment (i.e., your statistical average of each day's temperature is about 75 - 76°F). Now you're looking at about a 1.0 KWH/day/Ksf/CDD number, double my number, which would say something's wrong with your DX equipment, at least as compared to conventional water GSHP technology.
If it were me I'd go off and get the CDD numbers for your area, and do the calculation. While not an exact, precise calculation, I'll bet it's in the 'ball park' to eliminate either the structural envelope or the DX equipment as your source of problem.
Hope all this helps.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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23 Aug 2009 02:06 PM |
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To answer your questions, my geothermal units were retrofitted- ie the airhandlers except for the motor -now variable speed are the same. So, I only have 3 boxes outside-being monitored by the sub meters.
My electricity (main meter in July 2009) states our home consumed a total of 2129 kwh although our average HIGH for the month of July 09 was 75.8 degs F with temps at night in the 50s and sometimes dipping as low as 47 degs F. The sub meters were put in on Aug 13th 09 after tremendous pressure on the wholesaler who sold the units to my contractor that I was going to seek legal advice. My electricity consumption at the same time last year(July 08) was 2007 kwh with CONVENTIONAL A/C! July is typically the warmest month in Michigan. Also my basement that never requires cooling has 3200 sq ft. I feel as if I have been taken on a ride. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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23 Aug 2009 02:39 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/23/2009 2:06 PM
... our average HIGH for the month of July 09 was 75.8 degs F with temps at night in the 50s and sometimes dipping as low as 47 degs F. ... July is typically the warmest month in Michigan. Also my basement that never requires cooling has 3200 sq ft. Using your weather supplied info from above, let's assume for the month of July average highs of 76 °F, and average lows of 54°. That's an average daily temp of 65°. Which means you don't have any Cooling Degree Days. Meanwhile, for a 6 day period in Aug., where I'd guess the weather pattern is still similar or maybe slightly cooler, your average HVAC energy consumption, is 82 KWH/day. And this is for a 5400 sf home (not counting your 3200 sf basement). On a per Ksf basis, you're consuming 15 KWH/day/Ksf. For zero (repeat: zero) CDD each day. On the other hand, for a well performing water loop technology GSHP implementation here in Dallas, I'm at 11 KWH/day/Ksf, for days on end with an average of 21 CDDs per day (i.e., avg temp each day is 86° - highs at 100° and lows at 72°). So, as you have already figured out, something's wrong. I'll contend that something's so grossly wrong that it should be straight forward for an HVAC professional to look at your situation and figure it out. If it is not the HVAC equipment, then these would be areas I'd look at: 0. Is the instrumentation accurate? (Are your numbers correct? I'd go back and quadruple check.) 1. Do you have a substantial heat generating source inside the home? 2. Are the thermostats working properly (although this one would be obvious because you'd be freezing cold if the tstats were not operating properly)? 3. Is the duct work done properly, with no major exhaust, on the supply side, direct to an attic or outside? 4. Is there some kind of substantial hole or opening in the building structure to the outside? To put this into perspective, if your HVAC equipment is working properly, your 82 KWH/day consumption is equivalent to a Heat Rejection of about 1280 KBTU - per day! And for zero CDD days! If your equipment is working properly, that cooling has to be going somewhere! This is why I contend it should not be difficult for any HVAC professional to figure out what's going on. Wish I lived near you - I'd come help you figure out where your problem is. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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23 Aug 2009 03:36 PM |
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Could I get some clarification on this 11-50 ft umbrella loops from the Original Post? This is on 11 tons worth of equipment.
Is that 11,22 or 33----50ft. holes? |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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23 Aug 2009 03:41 PM |
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I have 11 holes - one hole for each ton. I am told they are about 50 ft deep(vertical bore) with an umbrella pattern and 10 ft apart in a straight line
I am going to dig deeper -no pun intended, and persist in getting the system fixed or the energy guzzling equipment removed from my premises. In the meantime, please feel free to offer dignostics.
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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23 Aug 2009 06:22 PM |
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Nobody has asked so I thought I would. What is the entering/exiting water temps on the units? Also, everything I've read on this web site always says the 'average' length of loop per ton is 300ft. Since the wells are only 50ft for a total 100ft(double loop)....pros.....would this not be a problem??
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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23 Aug 2009 06:32 PM |
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This is a DX system. Copper loops, refrigerant based. Most loops are 100' based on one ton( 100'down and 100' up). This may have a different design layout. Sounds like 50' down and 50'up. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2158
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23 Aug 2009 07:27 PM |
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I know of DX installers that prefer 50' wells instead of 100'. So that sounds right to me. Maybe a DX installer can tell us if he uses one 50' well per ton of cooling. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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dbelisle
New Member
Posts:12
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23 Aug 2009 08:03 PM |
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I am assume you are talking a Diagonal Loop system where each unit will have its own set of manifolds ......
The loops are drilled around a small diameter circle ( around eight feet ) not in a straight line and from 15 to 45 degrees out from that circle.......
It is important the all the loops for each system are the same length to the manifolds.
I think JackH is thinking the same thing I am , a D3 50 foot loop system is 3 loops per ton.....
Dave in NH |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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23 Aug 2009 08:14 PM |
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I'm not clear on the installation either. Umbrella and "straight line" do not mean the same thing. I know this installer to have more of these in MI (several dozen) than anyone else. Is it possible that we are talking about 11 clusters in a straight line with multiple loops? Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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23 Aug 2009 10:07 PM |
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I had water loop on the brain for some reason.......:(
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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23 Aug 2009 10:16 PM |
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I'm really curious about this one.
If the data offered is accurate, and the GSHP system is working per manufacturer's specs, then Mr. Drao is extracting about 1.4 *million* BTUs from his 5600 sf residence and putting it into the earch - daily! That's a big hole in the structure, noting that on average a day at the moment is zero Cooling Degree Days (Michigan climate)
If the data offered is accurate, and the GSHP system is not working per manufacturer's specs, then Mr. Drao is burning through 82 KWH of electricity - daily - for zero CDD days. That's an incredible amount of eletrical energy being consuming by a malfunctioning GSHP system, for zero CDD days.
Either way, something's grossly wrong. It hard for me to understand why it's difficult to troubleshoot this one (by someone on-site).
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Aug 2009 01:05 AM |
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as an added bonus consumption does not include blowers..... |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Aug 2009 08:39 AM |
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I am inviting Brian Garno from Garno Brothers Inc( he installed my units) to get involved in the discussion to clarify data so that we may arrive at a reasonable soultion to this issue.
Thanks for all the help. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Aug 2009 08:48 AM |
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My meter reads are accurate and as follows:
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2 Ton |
4 Ton |
5 Ton |
Main |
08/13/09 |
99999 starting read |
1504 starting read |
4595 |
01261 |
08/15/09 |
00017 18 kwh consumed
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1565 61
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4670 75
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1539 278 High 85F |
08/16/09 |
00030 13
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1602 37 |
4710 40 |
01705 166
High 89F |
08/17/09 |
00040 10 |
1650 48 |
4728 18 |
01834 129
High 81F |
08/18/09 |
00047 07 |
1697 47 |
4742 14 |
01967 133
High 82F |
08/19/09 |
00051 04 |
1732 35 |
4754 12 |
02062 95
High 80F |
08/20/09 |
00057 06 |
1765 33 |
4765 11 |
02169 107
High 81F |
08/21/09 |
00061 04 |
1791 26 |
4776 11 |
02251 82
High 76F |
08/22/09 |
00062 01 |
1803 12 |
4777 01 |
02331 80
High 64 |
08/23/09 |
00062 00 |
1805 02 |
4777 00 |
02360 29
High 70 | |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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24 Aug 2009 09:13 AM |
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> It hard for me to understand why it's difficult to troubleshoot this one (by someone on-site).
I agree and IMO, thermal capacity and efficiency testing should be done before final payment is made. One has to wonder how many systems are not working to specs but aren't so bad that it is obvious. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Aug 2009 09:47 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 08/23/2009 8:14 PM I'm not clear on the installation either. Umbrella and "straight line" do not mean the same thing. I know this installer to have more of these in MI (several dozen) than anyone else. Is it possible that we are talking about 11 clusters in a straight line with multiple loops? Joe he asks a second time...... |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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24 Aug 2009 05:56 PM |
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Hello everyone. At the request of drao I will offer some input. As stated there are three units. All are on vertical V-1 loops. There is 100' of bore per ton. When originally installed there was some variations in the bore depth. The four and five ton loops are in straight line. This was done because of clearance issues with undergroung utilities. After spending some quality time with the engineer from ETI this was changed. The a coils on the existing furnaces were also upgraded. The four ton now has a five ton coil and the five ton has a 7 1/2 ton coil. I don't have my notes with me so I can't give numbers right now. My feeling is given the suction and discharge pressures of the units the current draw is too high. I have also done blower door testing on the home and checked the insulation with a FLIR cam. Some problems were found and corrected. There is also duct leakage issues. Unfortunately the duct is buried in a finshed basement ceilling. I was hoping to find an Aeroseal contractor, but have had no luck. I appreciate any input. Brian |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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24 Aug 2009 06:18 PM |
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Hello Brian
Thanks for clearing up the depths, as a V1 100' pattern. And Welcome!
I'm sure Mike is your Dist. has he got involved.
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Aug 2009 06:31 PM |
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Yes, Mike knows what's going on |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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24 Aug 2009 07:45 PM |
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Hello, it sounds like you're getting some excellent advice here.
Based on my personal experience with an ECR Earthlinked DX system, I have one thing to check that could do what you're seeing, but it should have been picked up by the installer when they checked the system pressures, superheat, subcooling etc.
Was the proper backfill of the loops verified?
My system was installed in January when it was miserable out (not my idea). The installer backfilled but did not flush the fill down properly. So basically my loops were hanging in the air with a tiny fraction of the fill around them that they should have. I fixed this myself and the system works pretty well now. I discovered it because I installed temperature sensors on each ground loop so that I could monitor the ground temperature throughout the season. Unfortunately, I'm probably the only one anal enough to install their ground loops this way.
If your installer did not properly backfill the loops, then the system would keep trying to reject heat into the ground but can't because the loops are not thermally connected to the ground. This should cause the high-pressure lockout to kick in, but it's possible that there's enough heat transfer to prevent this but still seriously compromise the system's performance.
However, it should be easy to determine if this type of problem exists because the system parameters will be way off.
If you want to check out your loops yourself, you can simply drag your hose over to the bore holes and squirt water down the hole along the loop. If the backfill isn't complete, the water will wash down the sand (which is what ECR uses to backfill in areas where it is permitted). You will end up flushing the sand down and allowing it to settle as the water is absorbed into the ground. You can then add more sand (tons of it), flushing with water, until no more will fill the bores.
If your installer used a Bentonite grout, which is the proper procedure for plastic ground loops, or plugged the surface with an impervious fill (required by some codes to prevent groundwater contamination) then you obviously can't test things this way. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Aug 2009 08:38 PM |
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I remember seeing concrete like(grey) grouting material. I'm not sure what it is called. Come to think of it,on one side of the house (where the 2 ton equipment is installed), every time there is heavy rain, a hole opens up(like a cave in) and has already been filled in thrice. On the other side no such issues, but from the reads, you can see my 4 ton equipment seems to be the biggest guzzler. Regarding duct leaks, I would imagine that any retrofitted home may be expected to have some and mine is only 4 years old! Anyone heard of aeroseal or similar product to seal existing duct leaks. As you are already aware, I have a finished basement. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Aug 2009 08:54 PM |
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Duct loss seems unlikely to be this major a contributor. What were the man j loads for the units' zones. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Aug 2009 08:56 PM |
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Oh and what grout was used? j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Aug 2009 09:10 PM |
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I will have to consult my installer Brian for the answer. |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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24 Aug 2009 09:16 PM |
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The grouting issue may then be a tough one to check. However, someone should still be able to get a read on the temperatures to and from the ground loops to see if they're in the right neighborhoods. They should also be able to check your supply and return temperatures, and knowing the air flow, compute the BTU delivery of the systems. It won't be exact, but it will be good enough to ensure that things are close to spec. That should have been one of the first things done.
I simply cannot imagine that the problem won't pop out when you check these things. In your climate, the air conditioning requirements should be absolutely minimal, even with a big house, unless you've got some insane amount of heat being generated inside the house.
If I were diagnosing this, I would do a few things, in this order(ignoring the refrigerant level checks and basic startup of the system):
1) check supply/return temperatures. Compute BTUs based on air flow and temperature drop. For example, air flow = 1600 CFM. temp drop = 20F. BTUs is *roughly* 1.08 * 1600 * 20 = 34560.
2) Measure the running amperage draw for the compressors. you should read about 1kw load per ton. That's about 4.17 amps per ton on a 240v circuit.
If these two things are in the right ballpark for all the units, then the problem is in your house, not in your systems. But I cannot for the life of me imagine that these were not among the first things checked.
As for Aeroseal, one of my clients used this and even though the job was incomplete, it substantially reduced duct losses. Just make sure they really seal up all the registers. My client ended up with sticky goop all over his belongings in the basement where the ducts were exposed.
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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24 Aug 2009 09:30 PM |
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The original loops were grouted with a thermally enhanced grout per ETI instructions. When I redid the loops on the four and five ton systems we used Supergrout. The hole drao refers to is in the trench with the manifolds it is not near the bore holes. When I get a chance I will post the system pressures and temperatures. The memo about the wrong size caps came out from testing on another system I have that is also using too much electricity. Thanks for your input. Brian |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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24 Aug 2009 09:30 PM |
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Sounds like a strong argument for an aeroseal pro. The installer now contributing here will be able to tell us the grout used and the heat load. I know of no one in MI with more of these installs. Not a suck up just a fact. We are way past the obvious problems. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
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25 Aug 2009 07:07 AM |
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I wonder if anyone knows of a local aeroseal contractor in Michigan? I would like to check into that. Also yesterday's reads are:
2 Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton Main
08/24/09 |
00064 02 |
1814 09 |
4784 07 |
02434 74
High 76F | It is so obvious that everytime my units come on they guzzle electicity - a far cry from being GREEN! |
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tinoue
New Member
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25 Aug 2009 07:37 AM |
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Brian, it's great to have you hear. It's rare to have the installer contributing on these types of forums.
The fact is, there are a very limited number of options that could be causing the problems, so it should be possible to methodically rule them out. - excessive compressor draw - excessive air handler draw - defective compressor - leaky ductwork - inadequate thermal transfer between ground loops and ground - excessive home heat loss/gain - improper refrigerant charge - power meter errors - user issues
Have I missed anything?
Joe - you note that we're past the obvious problems. The point I'm making is that it is impossible for it to be anything other than these issues. If you definitively rule out each of these, you will be led to the only possible answer(s).
Ok, so let us assume that Brian has definitively ruled out some items: Excessive compressor/air handler draw Improper refrigerant charge Power meter errors Excessive home heat loss/gain User issues (i.e. 80F heat during winter, 60F cooling during summer)
We are left with only three possible problems - compressor malfunction - leaky ductwork - inadequate thermal transfer between ground loops and ground - user issues (there is ALWAYS an opportunity for user consumption patterns to screw with the numbers, regardless of what they tell us).
It is possible that the compressor partly works. Let's say that it has an internal leak and so it's not compressing/moving enough refrigerant. That would cause potentially continuous runtime/extremely high consumption. But, this should have been caught by during testing.
Question 1: are you 100% sure that the compressor is functioning properly? I've seen leaky ductwork that would cause very significant issues - i.e. a return duct detached in the attic. A single problem of this sort could easily double the load on the system. If you combined this with setting the thermostat to run the fan continuously, rather than in the "auto" setting, then during the summer, you could be sucking in several hundred CFM of 130F air which would be a huge heat/moisture gain for the house. However, this would have been immediately obvious during the blower door test as they would have felt all that hot air sucked into the house via the returns.
So, question 2 is: were the ducts adequately evaluated for leakage? Are you 100% sure that you're not sucking hot air in the return ducts? Are you 100% sure that the thermostat is being used properly in the "auto" setting?
Once the ductwork and compressors are ruled out, the only possible remaining problem is the ground loop conduction. Even if the loops were installed as per proper protocols, it is possible that the bore-hole fill was not correct. So, question 3 is: does each loop show the expected temperature change between the refrigerant going into the ground and the refrigerant coming from the ground? This is non-trivial as multiple factors could be affecting this measurement. For example, if the system were under charged with refrigerant, then even a slightly conducting ground loop could reject the heat into the ground and come back colder. Or, if the compressor was moving the refrigerant through slowly, then again, the heat could be rejected to the ground. But again, if all the standard refrigerant tests were done properly and came up clean, this test should be valid.
That's it, unless I missed a factor. There are only a few potential problems. Rule them out 100% and move on to the next and you will discover the real issue.
One final note - the data shown above indicate an inconsistent relationship between the consumption of the systems. The ratio of draws should be relatively consistent. What we see initially is the 4 and 5-ton units drawing about the same. Then, after a couple of days, the 4-ton remains high, about 8-10 hours per day of run time while the 5-ton system drops to 2-3 hours/day of runtime. i am also seeing a disconnect between the system consumptions and the total consumption. For example, on the 20th, all the systems consumed 50 kwh, and the house used a total of 107, so the normal house draws, and I guess the air handlers, used 57 kwh. If the house is using 50kwh/day, that's $150/month of basline usage. Likewise on the 15th, the systems used 154kwh and the house used 278kwh, so there was 124kwh of non compressor usage. This points STRONGLY to excessive household consumption IN ADDITION to high system consumption.
I sense a pool pump or a fountain or some other large pumps running in this household. There is no way that a typical houshold should use 124 kwh after air conditioning. But again, we clearly have multiple issues. The household uses way too many kwh, and the systems are running too much.
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tinoue
New Member
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25 Aug 2009 07:42 AM |
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I disagree, yesterdays numbers look normal. About an hour runtime for the 2-ton and 2kwh consumption, 2 hours and 9kwh for the 4-ton and an hour and a half or 7kwh for the 5-ton, total consumption of 18kwh, while the rest of your household guzzled 56kwh of electricity. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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25 Aug 2009 08:04 AM |
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Tinoue, I often encourage folks with questions to employ brevity in their posts so that the wheat is not hidden by the chaff. You might do the same with your thoughts. In your short post you made the observation that significant consumption was by other than heat pumps themselves. I concur. Drao I noticed installer's comment that units are attached to existing furnaces. Are these variable speed or split capacitor motors (do they go from slow to fast to slow again or just run on one speed)? Do you run constant or intermittant fans? It's been a funny year in MI with mild summer temps, much moisture and you have a large home, are you operating dehumidification independant of the cooling? |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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25 Aug 2009 09:25 AM |
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The two existing furnaces have been converted to variable speed. The two ton is on a variable spped Nordyne air handler. When I get a spare minute I will post my temerature and pressure readinds. I also have amp draw and temp readings from the airhandlers. Brian |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Aug 2009 10:23 AM |
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I beg to differ.
I may be noted that when my geothermal units are barely on as below on 08/23/09, I consumed 29 kwh my avg summer consumption without A/C. It is obviosus that I do not have outrageous household power usage -it is not as if I turn on more lights as it gets warmer outside!
08/23/09 |
00062 00 |
1805 02 |
4777 00 |
02360 29
High 70F | Strengthening this belief is the fact that on 08/17/09 my units and associated equpiment including air handlers etc are guzzling power.
08/17/09 |
00040 10 |
1650 48 |
4728 18 |
01834 129
High 81F | Just to put things in perspective, in July 2008, our home consumed 2007 KWH with conventional A/C. My geothermal units were up and running in Mid Aug 2008. |
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drao
New Member
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25 Aug 2009 10:25 AM |
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Oh, I almost forgot that we added 6 inches of additional cellulose insulation over the entire attic space to account for settling in May 2009! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Aug 2009 10:28 AM |
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I actually have a plan. On Aug 27th 2009( day after tomorrow) Brian is going to disconnect the geo thermal units completely for the next two weeks so I can put the last piece of my puzzle together before going the next step. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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25 Aug 2009 11:44 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 08/24/2009 8:54 PM What were the man j loads for the units' zones. J
do we not have these? |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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25 Aug 2009 11:46 AM |
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Posted By tinoue on 08/25/2009 7:42 AM I disagree, yesterdays numbers look normal. About an hour runtime for the 2-ton and 2kwh consumption, 2 hours and 9kwh for the 4-ton and an hour and a half or 7kwh for the 5-ton, total consumption of 18kwh ...
Interesting.
I'm familiar with conventional water-to-air GSHP technology, but not with DX. I've always thought DX was a more advanced technology, capable of producing similar or better efficiency performance. I've been looking forward to learning from this thread if indeed this is the case.
With data collection directly on the 3 HVAC units, it seems to me that discussion on the total structure power consumption just adds uneeded complexity to the subject.
Focusing on the one "normal" day, the HVAC related data published is: 8/24, 18 KWH (just for HVAC), 0 or less CDDs, 5600 sf home.
For this particular day, assuming the HVAC KWH consumption is in cooling mode, and assuming the DX system is operating similar in efficiency to conventional technology GSHP systems, then approx 280 KBTU of heat was extracted from the structure and put into the earth.
Again, this is on a 0 CDD day. Depending on what the low was for the day, it may well have been an x HDD day.
So my question is, is about three-tenths M BTU removal for this structure, for a 24 hour period, on a zero or less CDD day, 'normal?'
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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25 Aug 2009 12:18 PM |
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Bill, You are correct that heating was the larger requirement. A clarification on the "higher efficiency" DX. I've mentioned before that higher efficiency is often defined by the amount of pipe in the ground. For instance a water source vertical closed loop may use 300' of 3/4" pipe/ton to accomplish the same thing as a horizontal 600' slinky. That makes the vertical "more efficient" but does not impact operating cost. The DX may only use 200' of vertical pipe/ton making it "most efficient" but it may not have a lower operating cost. We once discussed the efficiency debate here and my posistion was (and remains); no one achieves the #'s advertised once the unit is off the test bench. Peak C.O.P. and average are different (a unit that operates on the test bench may achieve a 6 C.O.P during a test with open loop flow of 6 gal/ton but have an average yield of 3 C.O.P at 1.5 gal/ton). Units that are closed loop have lower C.O.P.'s in the mid winter bringing down the average as well. The claims of highest efficiency are rather disingenuous in my mind (by DX and water source mfg's), which is why I tell folks the installer is more important than brand or type. If you want a disqualifying comment from a contractor in my book how about "our heat pump is the most efficient." j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Aug 2009 12:22 PM |
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Yesterday's low was 51 F . Thank you for all the support i am getting from all of you. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Aug 2009 12:32 PM |
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Also, if it helps, my home is all brick and insulated with cellulose(NU Wool), has low E Pella windows, even put in styrofoam(one inch) before concrete was poured for the basement(to avoid direct contact to the cold underground) and even has styrofoam (one inch ) on below grade basement walls on the exterior. I even have low wattage spiral bulbs(flourescent) in my home. I have made every attempt to make my home more energy efficient and have researched extensively before deciding to put in geothermal. I was going the final step by going GREEN with DX geothermal technology but come to find out I am just losing a lot of GREEN! |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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25 Aug 2009 12:37 PM |
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Just a look at the #'s show that the 4 ton unit is used more and eating more Kw's. Is that the main area of the house?
Are there any fresh air intakes or duct work outside the living space of the structure? (as mentioned before, Attic space ductwork? ) |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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25 Aug 2009 12:43 PM |
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Posted By JackH on 08/25/2009 12:37 PM Just a look at the #'s show that the 4 ton unit is used more and eating more Kw's. Is that the main area of the house?
Are there any fresh air intakes or duct work outside the living space of the structure? (as mentioned before, Attic space ductwork? ) Yeah, It'd be interesting to see the man j load for each zone...... |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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25 Aug 2009 01:12 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 08/25/2009 12:18 PM
... A clarification on the "higher efficiency" DX. I've mentioned before that higher efficiency is often defined by the amount of pipe in the ground. For instance a water source vertical closed loop may use 300' of 3/4" pipe/ton to accomplish the same thing as a horizontal 600' slinky. That makes the vertical "more efficient" but does not impact operating cost. The DX may only use 200' of vertical pipe/ton making it "most efficient" but it may not have a lower operating cost.
Joe, thanks for the note. I'll learn right along with the rest here about DX technology.
Based on Mr. Drao's latest post, for the 18KWH day, it was approximately a -1 CDD day. Still, I'm assuming the structure has enough latent heat in it that the 18 KWH consumed was in cooling mode.
I don't agree that higher efficiency is defined by the amount of pipe in the ground. Thus, I think you and I are agreeing here.
I think the definition most consumers have of efficiency includes operating cost. Thus, for your examples of a vertical closed loop using 300' of 3/4" pipe/ton vs. a horizontal 600' slinky, if the KWH cost is the same for removal or injection of the same amount of heat, then I believe most consumers would agree the two systems are equivalent in efficiency.
I know little about DX. I've been under the impression that amongst the advantages of DX, one is that, for a KWH of power, more heat can be removed or injected, than with conventional technology water-to-air GSHP units (generally). I'll learn over time if this is indeed the case.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Aug 2009 01:21 PM |
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Funny that you ask! The 4 ton unit supplies the 2nd floor(1300 sq ft) and the basement 3200 sq ft. Also, I have four zones (two upstairs on either end of the house) one on the amain fllor and one in the basement. The 4ton unit only cools the 2nd floor(1300 sq ft) because my basement always is between 70 and 73 F ie never requires cooling -and still happens to be the biggest drain! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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25 Aug 2009 08:20 PM |
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Okay gentlemen here are the manual j-8 loads for the home. Flint Michigan used for reference city winter temp 1 and summer 87 dry bulb.
Total building load 112,432 BTUH net loss 52,198 BTUH sensible gain 4,877 BTUH latent gain 57,075 total gain. System #1 Four ton unit 2 Zones Zone #1 basement 22,704 BTUH loss 6,987 net gain Zone #2 second floor 24,259 loss 15,297 net loss System #2 Five ton unit Main floor 47,879 loss 29,590 net loss System #3 Two ton unit Master suite/Bonus room 17,590 loss 10,108 net gain Any other info needed please ask, I need to get this fixed Brian |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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25 Aug 2009 08:49 PM |
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At a glance you have 11 tons to accomodate 4 1/3 tons of cooling load which is IMHO unfortunate. I have great success close to you by not designing for 100% heating load. A greater reliance on aux. heat (again my opinion) would actually reduce your customers operating costs. While Earthlinked is very efficient, running a 5 ton compressor for a 2.5 ton load (since it is not 2 stage equipment) will cost extra. Philosophy/personnal opinion out of the way, I don't think this is the problem here. Based on other info provided, I think there is something else going on that we are not yet privy too. Significant usage aside from heat pumps seems to be occuring. How do we account for that? J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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25 Aug 2009 08:49 PM |
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Here is some data taken before I modified the loops and air coils per Russ' input. Units are in heat mode. System #1 4 ton unit suction pressure 30 PSIG discharge pressure 17.3 degrees 210 PSIG 179.9 degrees at the compressor Air coil liquid line 210 PSIG 100.5 degrees Air coil vapor line 210 PSIG 175.2 degrees Unit is pulling 12.93 amps at 243.5 Volts Air coil entering temp is 76.3 dgrees leaving temp 97.7 degrees at 1560 cfm measured it the air handler. Ground loop liquid 100 PSIG 53.7 degrees Ground loop vapor 32 PSIG 33.9 degrees
System #2 5 ton unit 40 PSIG 21.1 degrees suction 225 PSIG 191.2 degrees discharge at the compressor Air coil liquid line 220 PSIG 100.7 degrees Air coil vapor 225 PSIG 189.6 degrees Ground loop liquid 100 PSIG 73.9 degrees Ground loop vapor 40 PSIG 27.4 degrees Air coil entering temp 78.4 leaving temp 104.6 1975 cfm at the air handler Amp draw 21.02 245.3 Volts
System #3 2 ton 38 PSIG suction 19.7 degrees 180 PSIG 172.5 degrees discharge at compressor Air coil liquid line 180 PSIG 89.5 degrees Air coil vapor 180 PSIG 157.9 degrees Ground loop liquid 86 PSIG 53.7 degrees Ground loop vapor 40 PSIG 45.6 degrees Air coil entering temp 76.5 degrees leaving temp 89.8 degrees 675 cfm Amp draw 6.39 245.5 Volts All three units had bypass humidifiers installed. I did not do the duct system, it is buried in a finished basement ceiling,drywall of course. I would really like to locate an Aeroseal dealer. Thanks for your input. Brian |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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25 Aug 2009 08:53 PM |
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I agree that designing for less than 100% heat is the way to go. After IGSHPA training I have changed how I size systems. Traing I received from ETI had me sizing for 100%. Brian |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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25 Aug 2009 08:58 PM |
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(edited)
Great info. Just to confirm that we're all on the same page. The numbers you're giving are based on those design temperatures with a 65F base for HDD/CDD?
A very basic test I often run, which is more accurate than one would guess, is simply timing the on/off cycles at a variety of outdoor temperatures. Of course, this is rough due to thermal mass effects, but it's a good diagnostic. So, for example, if the net heat gain of system #1 at 87F is supposed to be ~22kBTUh, and if you determine that the actual delivered BTUs is 44kBTUh, then we would expect about a 50% run time/off time. Further, from that, you'd expect 12 hours per full day of runtime consuming about 48kwh.
For more accurate diagnosis, I've installed a data logger that tracks return and supply temperatures and outdoor temperature. For most accuracy, you'd want humidity as well, but let's ignore latent energy for now. Then, you can just look at the graphs of temperatures, see exactly when the air started/stopped cooling and compare that with the outdoor temperature. You also get a live delta-T measurements. you can add an amp-clamp to monitor the compressor or air handler as well.
All of this provides sanity checking and very powerful data that can quantify operational parameters, proving that the installed system is either working properly, or not. I would however start with the stopwatch and measure fractional runtimes.
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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25 Aug 2009 09:08 PM |
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Brian,
More great data. Do you have any delta-T numbers from this summer? Also, have you tried measuring at different times of the day?
Let me explain my reasoning without being too verbose.
When the system starts running for the day, the ground temperature will have had an opportunity to recover towards the base ground temp. Depending on the thermal conductivity of the ground and the amount of system use, throughout the day, the ground will heat up around the loops to some degree. So the temp. drop across the coil might be 30F in the morning but 20F in the afternoon after the system has been running.
The less the change, the better the ground loops/field are at rejecting the heat. If you have a grouting problem, you'll very find that your deltaT drops quickly. If you have excellent conditions, the deltaT should remain steady. |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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25 Aug 2009 09:12 PM |
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Yes I ussed 65 degrees. Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers. This figure does not allow for duct loss. I have not done a total duct diagnostic yet. System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH Older system I have installed produce more BTUH. I had to change a compressor on a 4 ton system that is 2 1/2 years old. When I checked capacity it was producing over 50,000 BTUH It seems everything I put in from June 2008 on does not produce The BTUH the older equipment does. Brian |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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26 Aug 2009 08:05 AM |
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What refrigerant is in these? |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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26 Aug 2009 09:18 AM |
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Good morning everyone! Take a look at these reads:
08/16/09 |
00030 13
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1602 37 |
4710 40 |
01705 166 High 89F |
08/17/09 |
00040 10 |
1650 48 |
4728 18 |
01834 129 High 81F | And these:
08/24/09 |
00064 02 |
1814 09 |
4784 07 |
02434 74
High 76F |
08/25/09 |
00067 03 |
1825 11 |
4800 16 |
02506 72
High 81F |
My take on the different reads for the same high of 81F on 08/17/09 and 08/25/09 are:
In the first case(08/17/09) temps are cooling down from a high of 89F the previous day and hence the units consumed more(low -nightime on 08/16/09 is 65F) requiring A/C units to work during the night as well on 08/16/09(my reads are taken in the evening )
In the second case(08/25/09), temps are going up from a high of 76F the prevoius day with a nightime low of 51F on 08/24/09 requiring minimal A/C use at night.
Does anyone still believe I have high household usage that varies with outside temps?
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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26 Aug 2009 09:21 AM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 08/25/2009 9:12 PM ... Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers. ... System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH (posting deleted - didn't see that capacity numbers above were measured in heating mode. I apologize. Bill) |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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26 Aug 2009 09:45 AM |
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... Does anyone still believe I have high household usage that varies with outside temps?
At this moment, I don't think conclusion can be drawn. For a few reasons:
(1) You have one of the most well respected installers in MI, per what Joe has already said. Thus, my guess is that if you have a really obvious GSHP performance problem, it would have been fixed by now.
(2) The data is disjointed, collected at different time points, and is incomplete. Thus, it's hard to draw conclusion yet.
(3) If the GSHP units are working fine, or even marginally, the HVAC related KWH data just doesn't make sense. The data would thus suggest there's one big hole in the structure somewhere, which in actuality I doubt.
(4) The structure was recently constructed, with many advanced insulation properties.
I recommend you do a few things, some quickly before you lose your cooling climate:
(1) Don't change anything with respect to HVAC at the moment. Change at this point makes it hard / impossible to compare to previous data and draw conclusion.
(2) Get someone to come in and carefully / accurately measure sensible cooling capacity and power draw on a day where there's a need for cooling, compute the EER numbers, figure out what manufacturer specs should be (properly adjusted for actual ambient conditions), and compare the two. Some judgement on latent cooling will be needed but this can be looked up in the specs (or actually measured but requiring additional time, effort and sophistication).
(3) Include the daily low temps on your KWH data recording, enabling CDD numbers to be calculated.
(4) Ignore total KWH consumption since you have submeters on the HVAC equipment. I believe the analysis on the variance of the total KWH numbers confuses the subject at hand.
(5) Check your accuracy reading the HVAC related KWH meters, ensuring the data is absolutely correct.
All just my opinion - hope it's helpful.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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26 Aug 2009 10:20 AM |
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Brian, could you please respond to the above suggestion?
Unfortunately, temps for the next 10 days are going to be in the 60s and 70s(high). |
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airhead1164
New Member
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26 Aug 2009 10:36 AM |
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The readings were taken in heat mode. I assumed it would be obvious because the delta increased across the coil. I have the tools to measure both sensible and latent capacity. However we are going to experiencing cool temps as drao stated. If you feel this not an issue I can get the data Thursady afternoon. My tools just came back from calibration, so they are dead on. These are R-22 systems. I tend to agree there is a hole in the envelope. The four ton system runs a bunch in heat mode. Thanks to every one for your input. Brian |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
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26 Aug 2009 11:09 AM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 08/25/2009 9:12 PM ... Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers. ... System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH
I had some COP calculations here, but have now removed them, due to later receiving some very helpful counsel (see below, later in the thread) on the COP algorithm.
The numbers above are air Heating Capacity, not Heat of Extraction.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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26 Aug 2009 11:20 AM |
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Bill, I believe you're double counting the compressor power - since he measured actual heat output at the coil it should already include any contribution from the compressor. This would make the COPs 3.3, 2.9, and 1.8 respectively. Also, assuming a power factor of 1 is a big assumption and probably not accurate, so the real COPs would be somewhat higher. |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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26 Aug 2009 11:21 AM |
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Yes Brian
I'm with you. With the "hole in the envelope". Is there a Exhaust air systems ("Stove vent" 1200 CFM ?, for example)
Looking back at the original Chart posted on Kw usage. The house is using as much as the air conditioning systems. is there Well pumps, fountain pumps, etc. I had a couple, who had a server in their house producing incredible heat, hooked up with a stereo systems, 500 can lights. You know, I shouldn't be telling you. I'm sure you checked all that.
Seems like, if one seems out of whack, it's the 4 ton. Hours running is higher then the 5 and 2 ton systems. I know you did not do the duct work, but how are the returns on the second floor. as you know,Duct work can KILL a system!!!
Jack |
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tinoue
New Member
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26 Aug 2009 11:31 AM |
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Consolidating the recent numbers, you have: 8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh. Total consumption: 166. => house consumption = 76kwh which is excessive 8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh. Total consumption: 129 = > house consumption = 23kwh which is reasonable. 8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh. Total consumption: 74 => house consumption = 56kwh which is high. 8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh. Total consumption: 72 => house consumption = 42kwh which is high.
The heat pumps are using far more than one would expect on the cooling days. Given that the current draw seems reasonable, that implies that the units are running more than expected. We really need to know how much cooling is actually delivered to the house on these warmer days. Temperature drop for each system after they've been running most of the day is the critical piece of missing information. If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation.
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
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26 Aug 2009 12:58 PM |
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Posted By cnygeo on 08/26/2009 11:20 AM ... I believe you're double counting the compressor power - since he measured actual heat output at the coil it should already include any contribution from the compressor. This would make the COPs 3.3, 2.9, and 1.8 respectively.
... assuming a power factor of 1 is a big assumption and probably not accurate, so the real COPs would be somewhat higher.
(deleted COP comments. Mr. Cnygeo pointed out correct details of the COP algorithm, which was much appreciated (see later in this thread).)
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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26 Aug 2009 01:31 PM |
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Posted By tinoue on 08/26/2009 11:31 AM Consolidating the recent numbers, you have: 8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh. 8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh. 8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh. 8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh.
... If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation.
I added "BTUs expected" to help the analysis and provide persepctive: 8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh = 1350 KBTU Heat Rejection 8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh = 1590 KBTU HR 8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh = 270 KBTU HR 8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh = 450 KBTU HR I used a factor of 15 BTU/Watt, reflecting what's reasonably accomplishable with water-to-air GSHP technology, to convert KWH consumed to KBTU Heat Rejection, and assumed DX units typically perform at or better. Amen: "If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation." And if the DX units are working fine, then it's an awfully big hole. And if the DX units are not working fine, something's getting awfully hot to burn up the indicated KWH. It will be interesting to hear what's found from an on site examination. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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26 Aug 2009 05:13 PM |
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Thanks to everyone. Tommorow I will measure sensible and latent capacity of the units. I really wish I could find an Aeroseal contractor. My worst fear is bad return air duct system to the second floor. I guess it is time to break out the flow hood and confirm. Brian |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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26 Aug 2009 06:36 PM |
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Brian,
If you get to the point that you think it's the ducts, a low-tech trick you might try is to seal up the duct system except for one register and blow in theatrical smoke with duct blaster. This is a very simple, yet effective way of finding leaks. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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27 Aug 2009 10:50 AM |
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Joe asked what refrigerant, I'm curious as well but betting it is R22. Please confirm.
I don't know DX, but why are the suction temps and pressures so low?
Surely the ground in MI in August is about as warm as it gets, especially after all the cooling power / heat rejected in the past couple months. Other data earlier posted suggests units only putting out 50-75% of nominal rating in heat mode. That's another bad sign. What will they do in January?
The amps don't look too out of line but the systems' heat outputs seem low, and COPs calculated by others seem low for this time of year.
I betting on either short loops or really really poor loop-to-ground contact and heat transfer
If mother nature and schedules cooperate, I'd really like to see pressure and temperature data in cooling mode. If I'm correct, we'll see very high discharge temps and pressures, high amps and low capacity.
Cooling capacity shortfall may be partly masked by the fact that the units are way oversized for cooing.
Was a shortfall in heating capacity last winter masked by heavy use of strips (house comfortable but electricity use very high)?
I'm not sure I'd go as low as 0.8 for PF. I have limited data suggesting my 3 ton WF is at 0.9 or higher. I'm not sure if this bears on DX but I figure the compressors are similar.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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27 Aug 2009 11:11 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 08/27/2009 10:50 AM ... The amps don't look too out of line but the systems' heat outputs seem low, and COPs calculated by others seem low for this time of year.
... I'm not sure I'd go as low as 0.8 for PF. I have limited data suggesting my 3 ton WF is at 0.9 or higher. I'm not sure if this bears on DX but I figure the compressors are similar.
Curt, thanks.
(deleted COP comments)
Parenthetically, I believe measurements today are being made, in cooling mode. Don't know if the measurements will include preasure readings though.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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27 Aug 2009 11:37 AM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 08/26/2009 12:58 PM
With respect to COP: my guess is each (major) manufacturer measures COP their own way. While WaterFurnace measures COP using the algorithm I used, (and thus is the COP formular I'm familiar with,) this may not be the case for the manufacturer of this DX system. I'll add another asumption note to clarify that I'm guessing on the calculation used by the DX system manufacturer.
Bill, if I'm reading the numbers correctly and he did quote heat output at the air coil, there is no question of manufacturer's methods. The COP is heat output relative to power input, period. If you want to split hairs you could factor in whatever heat is coming off the cabinet into the mechanical room, but at the end of the day all we care about is heat out/power in. Your method is correct if he was quoting heat absorption from the ground loop, but my impression was that he posted heat output. If WF used the method above to calculate their COPs the ARI would probably have something to say about it! |
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Bill Neukranz
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27 Aug 2009 11:50 AM |
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Posted By cnygeo on 08/27/2009 11:37 AM
... he did quote heat output at the air coil ... Your method is correct if he was quoting heat absorption from the ground loop, but my impression was that he posted heat output.
If WF used the method above to calculate their COPs the ARI would probably have something to say about it!
Wow! Thank you! I forgot that COP is measured on the input side (water in my case, and I guess R22 in the case of DX). Clearly the numbers provided were air Heating Capacity, and not Heat of Extraction. Thus, my guess is a good number more assumptions would have to be made to compute COP. Since the COP numbers I computed are wrong, I've removed them from earlier in this thread. Thank you for helping on this. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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27 Aug 2009 12:04 PM |
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You asked about energy consumption in winter? Here's my wallet blowing -OUTRAGEOUS electric bill for January 09.
Total KWH consumption : 6749 KWH in addition to 276 ccf gas consumption(back up for my 4 ton and 5 ton units). Only my 2 ton unit has aux electrical strip heat. My utility bill a WHOPPING $ 1040.21. Price per kwh 6.25 cents.
In comparison, my Jan 08 utility bill, with conventional natural gas heating was $641.39 (electrical consumption 1339 kwh and gas -486 ccf).
Brian consulted the company/Mike several times prior to this and they did very little! Mike made one visit in January 09 and was so patronizing! They would ask Brian to tweak this and that and change this or that part that Brian very religiously did. In frustration I sent a 18-20 page fax of bills present and past on 02/12/09 to their leadership to get the problem fixed and confirmed receipt. When I received no response back, I called this individual and even had a not so pleasant conversation in the presence of their certified contractor-Brian who was on one more of his trips to FIX the problem! Even then no urgency to take care of the problem. To put, a stop to the hemorrhage, I asked Brian to switch my 4 and 5 ton systems to emergency back up gas which he did and my March 09 bill for February usage dropped to $736.09(4470 Kwh because of partial month geo thermal and 224 gas ccf). It was finally the end of March 09 before their engineer Russ showed up and did a "thorough" analysis of the system based on different data points and suggested some major changes all of which was promptly done by Brian including a redig of my yard on the side of my 4 ton and 5 ton units in early May 09.
Summer temps have been so cool to moderate making it difficult to measure usage till finally with intense pressure to take care of the issue before the weather turns, the sub meters were put in Aug 13th 09. One thing is certain, my hand is forced to take care of this issue one way or the other! |
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drao
New Member
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27 Aug 2009 12:24 PM |
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Oops I got a little ahead of myself! Sorry for not explaining earlier. When I talk about the bill, I talk about the consumption pertaining to that month.
I also looked at the wrong month by mistake. My Jan08(consumption in January) bill was actually $523.71(1071 kwh electrical and 397 ccf gas for a total of $523.71).
My Feb 08(consumption in February) utility bill, with conventional natural gas heating was $641.39 (electrical consumption 1339 kwh and gas -486 ccf)-my HIGHEST ON RECORD WITH CONVENTIONAL NATURAL GAS HEATING!
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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27 Aug 2009 12:41 PM |
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January 09.
Total KWH consumption : 6749 KWH in addition to 276 ccf gas consumption(back up for my 4 ton and 5 ton units).
In comparison, my Jan 08 utility bill, with conventional natural gas heating was $641.39 (electrical consumption 1339 kwh and gas -486 ccf). February usage dropped to $736.09(4470 Kwh because of partial month geo thermal and 224 gas ccf). OK, rough numbers here: HDD for Flint, MI in January 08=1175. January 09 was SIGNIFICANTLY colder with 1558HDD. So right there you should expect to use 30% more energy all else being equal. 486ccfX103000btu/ccf*85% efficiency / 1175 = 36,212btu per degree-day. That's reasonable for a huge albeit newish house. So in January 09 you'd expect to use 1558*36,212=56.4 million btu. You got 24.1 million btu of that from gas, leaving 32.3 million to come from the heat pump. IF your non-geo consumption was similar for the two months (a HUGE assumption) then toe heat pumps used 5410kwh. Average COP would then be 32,300,000btu/(5410kwh*3412btu/kwh)=1.74. February HDD for 09 were 1078, so using a similar analysis you'd get a COP for the partial month of 1.83, so the numbers don't seem too far out of whack. What do you pay per ccf of gas? Estimating from you bill it seems like about $2.18 per ccf. Given your absurdly cheap electricity even at a 1.8 COP you're getting 95000 btu per dollar where you only get 40000btu per dollar with your gas. You would have been far better off with the geo taking as much load as possible even underperforming as it was. If the geo was working properly (say an average COP of 3) and took all the load, you could expect a bill of about $450 for last January. |
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cnygeo
Basic Member
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27 Aug 2009 12:45 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/27/2009 12:24 PM
Oops I got a little ahead of myself! Sorry for not explaining earlier. When I talk about the bill, I talk about the consumption pertaining to that month.
I also looked at the wrong month by mistake. My Jan08(consumption in January) bill was actually $523.71(1071 kwh electrical and 397 ccf gas for a total of $523.71).
My Feb 08(consumption in February) utility bill, with conventional natural gas heating was $641.39 (electrical consumption 1339 kwh and gas -486 ccf)-my HIGHEST ON RECORD WITH CONVENTIONAL NATURAL GAS HEATING!
Well, I'm not going to do all that analysis over again, but HDD for January and Febuary were similar in Flint in 08. Are you sure the billing period corresponds with the calendar month? Mine is usually the 20th to the 20th or something. Also note that your pre-geo electric use changed 30% from one month to another, so again, that is a HUGE variable. At least now you have submeters. |
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drao
New Member
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27 Aug 2009 01:03 PM |
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To clarify: my gas per ccf charge is $1.059($292.32 for 276 ccf)
and per kwh in winter is $0.01048($707.88 for 6749 kwh)
Then add sales tax of $40.01(6% in MI)
Thank you very much for pointing out the discrepancy. I did not realize winter electric rates are different! |
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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27 Aug 2009 01:10 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/27/2009 1:03 PM To clarify: my gas per ccf charge is $1.059($292.32 for 276 ccf)
and per kwh in winter is $0.01048($707.88 for 6749 kwh)
Then add sales tax of $40.01(6% in MI)
Thank you very much for pointing out the discrepancy. I did not realize winter electric rates are different! That does make a big difference - now you get about 83,000btu per dollar of gas and only 58,000 btu per dollar with geo at a 1.8 COP. Even at a COP of 3 you'd only get 98,000btu per dollar so you'd only be looking at a savings of about 15% over your old gas system. Cheap gas and expensive (still cheap compared to most of us) electricity is not where geothermal systems shine. |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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27 Aug 2009 02:19 PM |
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These recent comments and analysis by cnygeo are on target! The other important information here relates to the BTUs used for heating the house. Gas furnaces are pretty predictable, so it's easy to back calculate the BTUs per HDD, as cnygeo did. I updated it based on 397 CCF gas used and 1175 HDD at 85% efficiency and get 28,700 BTUs/HDD. For 7000 SF of heated space, this is only 4.1 BTUs/SF/HDD which is a good figure.
This shows that the thermal envelope of the house WAS relatively efficient, answering our questions about the "BIG HOLE" in the house.
So we're left with fewer options. 1) when the geo systems were installed, something went terribly wrong with the ductwork 2) problems with the geo system.
Unrelated to the heating usage, but pertaining to the whole house electrical loads, we see an average electrical consumption for those winter periods of 35kwh/day or 43kwh/day. These numbers are within the realm of normalcy for a large house. This is inconsistent with the summertime usage figures where we've seen huge consumption figures exclusive of the geo systems. Again, this points to a large contribution for summertime electrical bills from pool pumps or some other loads that are only used in the summer.
Based on all the information thus far, I'm sticking with my initial guess that the problem with the system(s) is the same as it was with mine - inadequate ground loop to ground thermal transfer caused by problems with the loop grouting. This will be proven if the system is measured at the start of a run for the day and it seems to output about the right amount of BTUs but rapidly decreases as the system is run. I would turn the systems off over night, or even better, for several days to a week. Then in the morning, turn them on to 60F so it runs continuously. Measure the delta-T across the coils. Each half hour of continuous runtime, make another measurement and graph the result. Some decrease is expected but I would wager that you will see a 50%-70% decrease in system output over the course of the day. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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27 Aug 2009 05:07 PM |
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Were electric bills quoted actual reads or estimates?
10-1d pct payback is about right against nat gas round here.
Curt it was since mentioned that R22 was the ref. Low pressures are typical of ETI products as they are designed to utilize least refrigerant possible.
An disconnected return or such might be identifiable by comparson of zone ambient to EAT.
j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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27 Aug 2009 06:33 PM |
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All electric and gas reads are actuals-not estimates. Brian was unable to come today to shut off the units but has promised to be here first thing in the morning tomorrow.
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stirich
New Member
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28 Aug 2009 10:09 PM |
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any news on this?
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drao
New Member
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29 Aug 2009 05:48 PM |
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Hi everyone, Brian was here yesterday(08/28/09) at around 12PM and forced all the units to turn on for about 30-45 mins because temps were very cool and took dry bulb and wet bulb reads, amp draws etc and said he would post the numbers(probably will soon) and turned all my units off before leaving. Please note that these units used all these units seen during the time Brian had these on.
Yesterday's reads at 6PM. 2Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton Main
08/28/09 |
00073 02 |
1838 04 |
4821 05 |
02662 49
High 62F | Today's reads at 6PM with all units turned OFF. Reads reflect electrical consumption other than A/C.
08/29/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02687 25
| In other words, my home consumed only 25 kwh with no geothermal activity! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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29 Aug 2009 05:50 PM |
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Please note that Please note that these units used all these units seen during the time Brian had these on.
I mean
Please note that these units used all these KWH during the time Brian had these on!
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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29 Aug 2009 06:15 PM |
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Brian stated before he left that the compressors are drawing more than double the amps they should be.
At this juncture I would like to say I am deeply disappointed in the apalling customer service and follow up of Earthlink Technologies in spite of repeated communication with them. Mike Dilling took a year to get the submeters put in to finally figure out IF there is a problem.
I see that there are some installers/ subcontractors who are on this forum and watching with interest, progress on this issue-so far not a single response back from the company since Russ was here in March 09 except for a measly Limited Warranty attachment on e-mail from the leadership of the company. This makes me more determined than ever to see this matter through to the very end and I will keep posting all further developments on this forum.
Although our installer, Brian Garno has done everything the company has asked him to the units still DO NOT PERFORM the way they are advertised. We do understand that sometimes equipment may not function the way they are supposed to. However, we expect as paying customers that companies stand behind their products and their service to the customers in a timely manner and take their concerns seriously.
A company is only as good as the product it offers and a company exists because of the customer. There is no company without the customer. A company that does not keep its customers happy, sooner or later CEASES to exist. |
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Bill Neukranz
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29 Aug 2009 06:46 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/29/2009 6:15 PM Brian stated before he left that the compressors are drawing more than double the amps they should be. ...
Helps to explain where the energy is going - I'll bet the compressors are pretty hot burning up the excess KWH. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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29 Aug 2009 07:30 PM |
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So, the question is why? Hmm, what would happen if the the ground loops weren't rejecting heat to the ground? I'd imagine that the pressures would elevate substantially. And in the winter, when it's trying to extract heat? Well gee, then the pressures might be exceptionally low, no? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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29 Aug 2009 08:51 PM |
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That was my thought but Joe Ami (with far more experience than I) wrote that the low suction temps and pressures are normal.
I'm still wonder how these things can be really efficient with compression ratios of 4-6 :1
I'd like to see some cooling mode pressures, temps, amps, and calculated btu output and EER |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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29 Aug 2009 11:27 PM |
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Posted By drao on 08/29/2009 5:48 PM ... In other words, my home consumed only 25 kwh with no geothermal activity! For a 24 hour period, this is impressive for an 8600 sf home. 25 KWH averages to about a 1000 W 'run rate.' When you consider that this has to include lighting, cooking, electronics, security, computers, ceiling fans, blow dryers, washing machines, dryers, dish washers, vacuum cleaners, telephones, cable TV set top boxes, TVs on standby, stereo equipment, microwaves, toasters, refrigerators, UPS units, etc., squeezing all of these into 1 KW is impressive. In comparison, for my 3400 sf home in Dallas, for the equivalent 'base load' (for me it's exclusion of HVAC and pool pumps), I can't get much lower than about 40 KWH per day, on average. That's a about a 1700 W 'run rate.' And I'm exclusively CFL lighting, with an automation system that's constantly turning off lights and ceiling fans in rooms that become unoccupied after a period of time. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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30 Aug 2009 08:26 AM |
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My 3400 SF home near Jax FL has these consumption characteristics:
1) Phantoms - 4 kwh / day. Includes nothing but wall warts and control power transformers (HVAC, garage doors, smokes, phones. Measured this with fridges off and PCs unplugged
2) Unoccupied - 9 kwh / day. Includes phantoms + road floodlight, 2 fridges, well pump (2 other homes use water off it)
3) Occupied without HVAC - 24 kwh / day. This is data collected during mild periods of no HVAC use. Includes all normal residential uses - hot water, laundry, cooking, lights, entertainment
About 6 kwh of that goes to hot water since w/o HVAC there is no recovery of superheat
HVAC adds up to 15-20 additional kwh / day, but up to 5 kwh out of the 6 for HW goes away owing to superheat recovery |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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30 Aug 2009 08:55 AM |
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What are current line pressures? I think this is an occasion when I would consider digging up the manifolds and checking individual loops for heat rejection. If all units had twice the expected amp draw then 2nd floor duct concern diminishes, but if the R/A was the source of double amp draw the R/A temp would be way high (discernably so). Did the answer to the "what kind of grout" question come up. Engineer: believe it or not there's not a lot of prescribed pressures in Earthlinked training. In fact you are taught that icing is not necessarily indicative of trouble. I'll be watching to see the outcome and ETI's contribution as well. It would also be nice to see Clarks thoughts here. Any one have tuffluck's #......... j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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30 Aug 2009 09:06 AM |
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Icing seems perfectly reasonable under some circumstances (obviously not good in loop water) but icing the soil around DX loops doesn't give me heartache - solid ice is a fairly good conductor and there's a whole lotta heat available from the latent heat of fusion - freezing the water.
I remain skeptical of those suction pressures and temps in heating mode this time of year, even in MI. I'm still betting on a short loop or poor ground contact issue, when and if the solution surfaces. I believe the measurements of reduced capacity, if accurate, support my bet.
Looking forward to the final answer, though. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
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30 Aug 2009 09:40 AM |
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The Icing I'm refering to is on suction line or compressor (which is of course indicative of low pressure). We agree however on our off the cuff prediction of loop/earth connection is suspect which is why I'd want individual loop Delta T's. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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31 Aug 2009 04:25 PM |
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I'm back, sorry about the delay. Here is some more data for your consideration. Let's start with the five ton unit. Suction pressure at the compressor 40 PSIG Line temp 23.6 F Discharge pressure at the compressor 170 PSIG Line temp 109.7 F Earthloop liquid pressure 120 PSIG Line temp 59.8 F Vapor pressure 190 PSIG Line temp 119.2 F Air coil Liquid 70 PSIG Line temp 48.3 F Vapor 40 PSIG Line temp 36.8 F Amp draw 28.49 at 247.8 Volts Air coil entering temps 68.3 db 57.4 wb Air coil Leaving temps 49.2 db 45.6 wb Line temps at the air coil 42.9 F liquid and 33.7 F vapor Line set length is 45' Total BTUH delivered 4.5X 1875 (measured cfm at the airhandler) X 6.77 (enthalpy change) = 57,121.8 BTUH Sensible BTUH 1.08 X 19.1(db delta T) X 1875 = 38,677.5 Latent BTUH = 20,444 All readings taken at steady state minimum 15 minutes of run time Blower draw 6.92 Amps 115 Volts G E ECM Motor ! HP |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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31 Aug 2009 04:37 PM |
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To help keep things clear I will post each unit seperate. Here is the four ton unit. Compressor pressure suction 60 PSIG line temp 47.4 F discharge 220 PSIG line temp 138.3 F Earth loop Vapor pressure 250 PSIG line temp 130.2 F Liquid pressure 190 PSIG line temp 61.4 F Air coil vapor pressure 55 PSIG line temp 48.3 F liquid pressure 98 PSIG line temp 83.9 F Air coil temps entering 68.1 db 57.4 wb Leaving 51.3 db 47.8 wb Air coil line temps vapor 46.5 F liquid 51.0 F (line set lenght=45') Compressor amp draw 15.48 Blower amps 6.79 (G E ECM 1 HP) Total BTUH= 42,993 Sensible= 30,845 Latent=12,148 |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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31 Aug 2009 04:45 PM |
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Last but not least the two ton unit, Compressor pressure suction 65 PSIG line temp 46.5 F discharge pressure 205 PSIG line temp 96.7 F Earth loop liquid pressure 85 PSIG line temp 57.3 F vapor pressure 205 PSIG line temp 91.7 F Air coil liquid pressure 75 PSIG line temp 56.4 F vapor pressure 65 PSIG line temp 51.5 F Air coil entering temps 67.2 db 58.1 wb Air coil leaving 46.8 db 44.4 wb Compressor amps 6.95 Blower amps .49 Both are 240 volt I did not take air coil line temps because the line set is only 7' long. I hope this answers every one's questions. Any thing else you want to know please ask, I am grateful for the constructive input. Brian Sorry forgot the BTU's Total BTUH= 30,341 Sensible BTUH=18,948 Latent BTUH=11,394 |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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31 Aug 2009 05:04 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 08/31/2009 4:25 PM ... Amp draw 28.49 at 247.8 Volts ... Total BTUH delivered 4.5X 1875 (measured cfm at the airhandler) X 6.77 (enthalpy change) = 57,121.8 BTUH ... Latent BTUH = 20,444 ... Blower draw 6.92 Amps 115 Volts G E ECM Motor ! HP The numbers highlighted here certainly match up to what the owner is experiencing: Comfort - no problem: cooling's being delivered (57 KBTU/hr, with plenty of Latent for RH removal) Electricity consumption: wow! 7.1 KW to produce the 57 KBTU/hr capacity. My WaterFurnace 5 ton unit produces two-thirds capacity in 1st stage for about 3.2 KW (including pumps - see http://welserver.com/cgi-bin/plot/WEL0043/InstantaneousPowerUsage.gif ), and is spec'd at 4.2 KW in 2nd stage (full 5 tons). This DX unit is operating at almost one-half the efficiency of my WF 5 ton unit. Even the ECM blower fan motor power draw is high. At 1500 CFM mine draws 210 watts (1 amp at 230 volts). The DX unit's ECM motor, at 1875 CFM, is drawing 720 watts. Perhaps the ductwork is much more restrictive. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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31 Aug 2009 05:09 PM |
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Bill brings up a good question, how much return air do all the units have? |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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31 Aug 2009 08:47 PM |
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I agree that blower amps for 4 and 5 ton seem way high. Compressor amps for the 5 ton seem way way high.
The high blower amps supports questioning ductwork / return air. Airside drybulb delta Ts look OK, though.
Blower power returns to air as heat, a substantial amount in the case of the 4 and 5 ton machines (~4000-5000 btuh, except that I don't know PF)
5 ton compressor suction seems low, others OK
How is earth loop pressure 30 psi above compressor discharge pressure on the 4 ton (typo, perhaps?)
The two ton's numbers seem quite good, except I'm curious about large delta P between earthloop vapor pressure and earthloop liquid pressure
Pressures / temperatures suggest the 5 ton might be undercharged, except that compressor amps are crazy high. Could there be a restriction in its lines?
DISCLAIMER - as I mentioned before, I don't know DX beyond the theory of its operation |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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31 Aug 2009 11:53 PM |
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Just to be sure, the 5 ton's run capacitor's amp draw is:?
Also, I agree completely that the blower amps on the 4 and 5 seem VERY high.
The 5 ton compressor is running way too high of amps, too. What's the status of the filter/drier in the 5 ton's refrigerant lines?
As far as it being "undercharged", the few things that would cause that situation do not include undercharged. It would more likely be restricted air flow, restricted refrigerant flow, faulty compressor/run capacitor, or plugged/malfunctioning liquid flow control (assembly)...
This is a long thread...took a long time to read it all and catch up...maybe I should visit the site a little more often. |
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Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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01 Sep 2009 09:37 AM |
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I'm surprised ESP wasn't measured for the units, noting the high ECM blower fan motor power draws. It would quickly indicate possible ductwork restriction. It doesn't require expensive instruments to measure, and it's not terribly time consuming. And if separate static pressure measurements are made at the supply and return points, then further diagnosis may be possible on the return ducts alone.
I recommend the HVAC professional return to get ESP measurements. Should help a lot to eliminate/confirm ductwork problem(s). These measurements don't require the units to be in cooling or heating mode.
Can do the measurements in fan only mode, first getting the fan RPMs to match the fan's current draw to what was previously measured. Then do ESP measurements.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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01 Sep 2009 09:48 AM |
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Just to clear up somethings? Those GE ECM motor are retrofits to the existing gas furnaces on the 4 and 5 ton? Duct design could have been designed at restrictive ESP. The 2 ton is a factory variable speed air handler? Installed separate from the original house? Earthlinked systems are a split systems. As the air portion of the system, is not self contained in the unit, as most of the water source systems are. Now there has been same concern about wrong capacitors installed on Copeland Compressor, as well. Causing higher then normal amp draws. Oh yeah, Thanks for showing up again Clark.....it's been awhile Edit ( Oops Bill, you beat me to the punch, I waited to long to hit the submit button)) |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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01 Sep 2009 09:57 AM |
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I agree the ECM motors are working hard. The PSC motors I took out were begging for mercy. They were pulling max amps. I have modified the filter configuration and added what little I can for return air. The TESP is .75"wc for the four ton unit and .80"wc on the five ton. With the basement being finished with drywall I am hamstrung to do more right now. I will have to find my notes on the seperate static pressure readings. I noted TESP on the set I am working from right now. I still feel the elephant in the room is the high compressor amp draw. RE tuffluckdriller I am not sure what you mean on the capacitor amp draw. Thanks, Brian |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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01 Sep 2009 01:12 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 09/01/2009 9:57 AM ... I still feel the elephant in the room is the high compressor amp draw.
If you assume 4.2 KW is spec for the compressor and associated electronics (simply looked up what a WaterFurnace Envision 5 ton spec is at 2nd stage, and assumed the DX technology performs at the same efficiency), then the unit is requiring 69% more power than it should be to produce the 57 KBTU/hr that was affirmed the unit is. If you further assume that with better airflow the ECM should be drawing about 300 watts instead of 720, that's an excess of 420 watts. Put the two specs together (4.2 + 0.3 KW), you get 4.5 KW total. Comparing the 300 watts additional power for the ECM to operate with the high TESP, to the total 'spec,' it's only 7% of the problem. Or, to agree with the above quote, the compressor's power draw is 93% of the total power draw problem. This would say to focus on the compressor, refrigeration and earth heat exchange areas before anything else. Maybe though, the "7% problem" is a tell-tale sign that a lot or most of the 57KBTU/hr cooling is not reaching rooms. If this was the case, though, you would think the owner would be complaining of not being able to get rooms cool enough, and/or excessive run time. I believe the owner has stated that getting rooms to tstat setting is not a problem. But I haven't seen any measurement on run time (may be hard to do without a tstat that records it, or, some amount of instrumentation). Still, you would think the compressor would just run longer, and not almost twice as hot as it should be, if air exchange was the primary problem. Since the evap coil deltaT numbers don't look unusual, maybe there really is 'a big hole' somewhere, and it's in the ductwork. Interesting. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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01 Sep 2009 01:39 PM |
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Has anyone considered the fact that whatever" HOLE" exists presently has existed since my house was constructed four years ago?
If that was such an issue,how come my bills with the so called inefficient gas furnace were a lot less to keep my house comfortable?
From reading previous threads, problems with Earthlinked Systems are not uncommon in combination with dismal customer service.
Where now is the claim for 40% -60% savings over conventional systems, when all I have seen is 150% increase over the conventional system? |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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01 Sep 2009 06:25 PM |
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Yes the G E ECM motors are retrofitted to the existing furnaces. The two ton is a Nordyne variable speed air handler. The duct system is marginal at best, however the homeowner has several years of experiance running 13 seer AC on the existing duct system. So logic would dictate increasing the ac effiency should result in lower bills. Or am I missing something? The duct system and building envelope have actually been improved and yet the bills are out of sight. Thanks to everyone for your input, Brian |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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01 Sep 2009 06:44 PM |
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I'm in strong agreement with Bill - focus on the lion's share of the problem. However, there's clearly a restriction problem to have such a high pressure in the air handler/ductwork. I believe these are all interrelated and are complicating finding a solution. If the air flow is restricted, then we would be getting an increased delta-T across the coil. Yes, ECM motors try to push the rated air through, but there's no guarantee that they actually are. What if they're working at their max capacity and still not moving enough air? If the delta-T's "looked normal, but the airflow was only, say, half what we think, then the BTUs delivered would also be half what we think, meaning the compressor situation is even worse than expected. Also, if the air flow were that restricted, then you wouldn't be evaporating as much refrigerant as you should in the summer, throwing off pressures throughout the system.
Again, we need to isolate issues, one-by-one and rule them as definitely good or bad. Right now, we know that the duct system is "bad" at the air flow that the ECM systems are trying to push. How about flipping the switches on the ECM to reduce the CFM and see at what rated CFM you reach a reasonable pressure? You need to be working within the rated pressure range in order for the air handlers to actually move as much air as you think they are.
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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01 Sep 2009 09:35 PM |
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The CFM amounts I used were actual measurements. I traversed the return air duct. I agree the duct is not helping matters. That is why I am concetrating on the BTU delivery at the airhandlers. If we get the high energy consumption beat then I can address the delivery system. The ECM motors are actually rated for 1 1"wc TESP Thanks, Brian |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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01 Sep 2009 10:29 PM |
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I was recently asked to debug a 6 ton running with 1.4" ESP. The far upstairs zone just wasn't getting enough cooling - go figure!
0.75 - 0.80" is a bit high but not too bad.
That makes me wonder even more at the 6-7 amp blower power - still seems way way high for that ESP
I agree that the elephant in the room is the 5 ton compressor drawing 30 amps. Fix that and you've nailed much if not most of the problem.
How confident are you of the current reading instrument's accuracy?
I don't mean to question your competence or tools, but I recently found my own clamp meter to be a bit off.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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01 Sep 2009 11:34 PM |
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What I mean by the amps of the capacitor is... when the compressor is running, what is the current measured on the wire from the run capacitor to the compressor? If it is 0 Amps, it's a bad capacitor...compressor still may run, but capacity and efficiency will be dramatically lower than normal. Also, current on the compressor will be high.
I'd assume Russ would have already checked that, though... |
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Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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02 Sep 2009 08:18 AM |
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I did not check the amp draw there. I learned something new. Regarding my instruments there are dead on balls accurate. My tools go in for yearly calibration. I am also a certified air and water balancer. Brian |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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02 Sep 2009 04:52 PM |
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I must correct myself...if it's a bad/weak capacitor, the compressor may still run, but efficiency will be dramatically lower than normal. Capacity should stay about the same. Current also will be high. I'm almost certain it's got a bad capacitor, based on your high current draw on the 5 ton, but obviously I'm just some internet guy located far away, and just offering up my little opinion... |
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Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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02 Sep 2009 07:28 PM |
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I appreciate your opinion. I have checked the caps and have also changed them several times. Next wednesday we are going to change the four and five ton compressors. I hope this helps. Thanks to everyone for your input. Brian |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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02 Sep 2009 09:49 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 09/02/2009 7:28 PM ... Next wednesday we are going to change the four and five ton compressors. With a DX system, is there some way to affirmatively diagnos that it's the compressor and not the DX heat exchanger? Or do you have to go to the extensive effort / expense of chaning out the compressors to ascertain if it's the DX heat exchangers or not? Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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03 Sep 2009 07:50 AM |
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Bummer to have to replace compressors Brian. I look forward to hearing the results. You're lucky that you have a customer who appreciates your efforts or this would be twice the PITA (pain in the.....). I really feel bad for you guys on this one and would swing by if I thought I could do any good. Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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03 Sep 2009 08:36 AM |
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Given the pressure and temperature readings Mike and I feel the earth loop and air coils are good. I all ready replaced the air coils. My mistake on that one. The thing that stands out to me is the high amp draw. I have many other units in the field that only draw half the amps. So that is why we are doing the heart transplants. Drao has been great to work with. They beleive in the DX technolgy and just want their system to work as advertised. Thanks again to everyone. This is a great site. Brian |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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03 Sep 2009 08:58 AM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 09/03/2009 8:36 AM ... we are doing the heart transplants.
Good luck! Look forward to seeing the results next Wed. or Thur.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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03 Sep 2009 09:08 AM |
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Hi everyone,
Thanks to all of of you for your helpful suggestions and input. I truly appreciate it that everybody is trying to help take care of my problem. Brian has been truly wonderful to work with and is genuinely interested in correcting the problem. We are hoping that " the heart transplant" ie compressors on the 4 ton and 5 ton units will take care of the problem. If that takes care of the matter, it will make us very happy. As Brian states, I truly believe in the technology of the system and just need it to work as advertised. Further, I am not averse to suggestions on how to make my home " hole " free after "the elephant in the room" has left. |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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03 Sep 2009 09:14 AM |
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Yes, Good Luck!
I'm sure it has been a long, drawn out ordeal for drao and Brian, but it's Brian's commit to the customer, along with Mike's and Earthlinked to try and solve the problem. Hope it does. looks like it will.
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geonomics
New Member
Posts:5
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03 Sep 2009 11:56 AM |
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Haven't looked through all 7 pages yet..and not sure if original poster is still checking this link, but I didn't see anyone comment on the loop sizes...although the contractor went and dug up the loops to check for problems, seems to me he missed the real problem which was not enough loop!
You said 11 x 50 ft. loops for a 8,600 sq. ft. home...that just boggles my mind. 550 ft. of bore for that size of a home is well short of a considerable amount. Let's think about this...just because DX systems use copper loops (enhanced heat transfer) does not mean less ground is needed as a heat source/heat sink. In fact, one should almost use MORE ground..this is because the copper loops are dissipating/capturing heat to/from the ground at such a faster rate. Although ground conditions vary, no soil has high enough thermal conductivity to keep up with such transfer. What I think you have is a problem with the entering water temp (EWT). With such a small loop and such a large heating load, the loops are capturing all the heat from the ground and all the while lowering the temperature, and this will get worse over time. Once the refrigerent makes it to the heat pump the temperature may be so low that the whole point of using geothermal has vanished (in MI I would guess it should be somewhere around 27 degrees?) Therefore, the heat pump has to work that much harder (aka use more electricity) to get the building to the desired temperature...and vice versa for cooling mode.
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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03 Sep 2009 12:36 PM |
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Posted By drao on 09/03/2009 9:08 AM
... We are hoping that " the heart transplant" ie compressors on the 4 ton and 5 ton units will take care of the problem. ... I am not averse to suggestions on how to make my home " hole " free after "the elephant in the room" has left. As I said earlier, I hope all goes well and the compressor changeouts will return your 4 and 5 ton units to the efficiency performance like what you're currently getting with your 2 ton unit. I.e., from the data most recently posted, your EER numbers are 8.1 (5 ton), 10 (4 ton) and 19 (2 ton) (assuming a 0.9 PF on the current/voltage measurements). Based on the experience of the person obtaining the raw measurements, and the sophistication of the instruments used to obtain the numbers, I'd venture these EER actuals are very accurate (including actual measurement of the latent portion of total capacity). After the compressors are changed out, hopefully the efficiency performance of your 5 and 4 ton units will be similar to your 2 ton unit, i.e., near or greater than 19. After the EERs are fixed, with respect to making your home 'hole free,' since you do have the ability to track HVAC-only energy consumption, and since you can look up Cooling Degree Days, I suggest you put together a chart showing the KWH versus CDDs. If you have HVAC related consumption that doesn't match up to the CDDs pretty closely, then it may be safe to conclude you've still got work to do with the ducts and/or structure envelope. (For your climate it may be too late to do this because your cooling mode season is over. You may have to thus wait until it's a near-pure heating mode season, and track HDDs. Just make sure you don't include days where there's both HDD and CDD components. My guess is for MI weather you'll have plenty of opportunity to do this tracking for heating.) An example is shown below. But, while I have a pretty solid energy monitoring system, for the example I'm illustrating, it's easily done with the information you already have readily at hand. I.e., you don't need anything further to do the suggested analysis. Hope this helps. Best regards, Bill |
Attachment: HVAC-KWH-DD.jpg
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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03 Sep 2009 02:02 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 08/24/2009 5:56 PM Hello everyone. At the request of drao I will offer some input. As stated there are three units. All are on vertical V-1 loops. There is 100' of bore per ton. When originally installed there was some variations in the bore depth. The four and five ton loops are in straight line. This was done because of clearance issues with undergroung utilities. After spending some quality time with the engineer from ETI this was changed. The a coils on the existing furnaces were also upgraded. The four ton now has a five ton coil and the five ton has a 7 1/2 ton coil. I don't have my notes with me so I can't give numbers right now. My feeling is given the suction and discharge pressures of the units the current draw is too high. I have also done blower door testing on the home and checked the insulation with a FLIR cam. Some problems were found and corrected. There is also duct leakage issues. Unfortunately the duct is buried in a finshed basement ceilling. I was hoping to find an Aeroseal contractor, but have had no luck. I appreciate any input. Brian This info is for geonomics. This is not a water based system. It is DX. Also thank you to a0128958 for tips on tracking HDDS and CDDs. I will approach this after the compressor change over. Thanks again. drao |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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09 Sep 2009 09:23 AM |
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Hello everybody!
Here are the meter reads for the last 11 days that my systems were off. Brian and Mike are here this morning, changing compressors on the 4 and 5 ton units. Will get more detail on that soon. I am sure Brian will post data for you to chew on.
2 Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton Main
08/29/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02687 25
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08/30/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02711 24 |
08/31/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02734 23 |
09/01/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02756 22 |
09/02/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02777 21 |
09/03/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02802 25 |
09/04/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02828 26 |
09/05/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02853 25 |
09/06/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02875 22 |
09/07/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02900 25 |
09/08/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02921 21 | As it may easily be observed my baseline reads are about the same -26kwh or lower. Let's wait and see what the compressor change does. Customers seek out a product based on the service reputation of the company and if the company fails to live up to their expectations with prompt service, BAD NEWS travels fast, much faster than many good words! As they very wisely say, a stitch in time saves nine! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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09 Sep 2009 01:50 PM |
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Posted By drao on 09/09/2009 9:23 AM As it may easily be observed my baseline reads are ... 26kwh or lower.
I'm impressed that you can run an 8600 sf home at an average of 1 KW over a 24 hour period. The best I can do for a 3400 sf home is 1.7 KW avg over a 24 hour period (40 KWH / day base load).
When you think about it, even if you have gas hot water, there's lighting, home entertainment, computers, UPS units, electric ovens, toasters, telephones, dish washers, vacuums, refrigerators, washing machines, dryers, security system, networking equipment, fax machine, ceiling fans, communications, sprinkler system, hair dryers, etc., which all add up.
I'm impressed!
Good luck today with the compressor replacements.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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09 Sep 2009 09:59 PM |
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I think I posted this before but since the subject of 3400 SF home base loads has arisen I'll share mine (same 3400 SF) near Jax, FL
Phantoms (all the stuff plugged in not doing anything) = 4 kwh /day
Unoccupied (vacationing) house - Phantoms + fridge,chest freezer, driveway floodlight, well pump supplying 2 other rentals, but no HVAC, hot water = 9 kwh / day
Occupied house no HVAC, all hot water (6kwh / day) from electric resistance - this is during spring, fall weeks with no heating or cooling needed = 24 kwh / day
Occupied house Jan or July (moderate to heavy heating / cooling, but nearly all domestic HW from desuper) = 32 kwh / day
I read spikes up to 50 kwh / day when temps dips down into the 20s or up to upper 90s and a few loads of laundry are done, or family shows up and we cook all day.
I'm hoping the newly installed HPWH will drop the spring / fall no HVAC daily use from 24 to 20 or so, without causing undue problems on very cold days.
The last major load needing a better solution is the electric clothes dryer - someone's got to come up with a heat pump solution for that appliance. I have half a mind to start experimenting with a used clothes dryer and a big Therma-stor central dehu in lieu of its resistance elements, but my 3 jobs and two small children leave little time for such science experiments. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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16 Sep 2009 11:14 AM |
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Posted By drao on 09/09/2009 9:23 AM
... Brian and Mike are here this morning, changing compressors on the 4 and 5 ton units. Will get more detail on that soon. What's the word? Any update? Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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17 Sep 2009 09:26 AM |
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Brian is supposed to be replacing a part this morning on the 4 ton unit. He is yet to post the data. He said he would post all data today after the part is replaced. The weather has started cooling down. Also, I am posting the reads since they changed compressors. Please note that the thermostat controlling the 5 ton unit was set at 85F in error by Brian when he left on 09/09/09, instead of 75F . I did not find that out till about 2 days ago. It hasn't been that warm recently here . Here are the reads from 09/09/09 till now. So, what do you all think? Has performance improved appreciably?
09/09/09
9.30am before starting the systems back up |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02936 15 |
After systems ran for 2 hrs |
No compressor change- read not taken |
1845 07 |
4827 06 |
02953 17 |
Read at 6.30 pm |
00076 03 |
1855 10 |
4831 04 |
02981 28
High 79F |
09/10/09 |
00079 03 |
1873 18 |
4831 00 |
3038 57
High 79F |
09/11/09 |
00081 02 |
1881 08 |
4831 00 |
3074 36
High 78F |
09/12/09 |
00082 01 |
1891 10 |
4831 00 |
3112 38
High 75F |
09/13/09 |
00083 01 |
1899 08 |
4831 00 |
3161 49
High 80F |
09/14/09 |
00086 03 |
1914 15 |
4831 00 |
3207 46
High 82F |
09/15/09 |
00090 04 |
1928 14 |
4841 10 |
3264 57
High 78F |
09/16/09 |
00090 00 |
1931 03 |
4841 00 |
3300 36
High 67F | |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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17 Sep 2009 11:59 AM |
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Sorry for not adding the headers
2Ton 4 Ton 5Ton Main
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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22 Sep 2009 07:24 AM |
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Okay I am back. Just for fun I took readings on all three systems. Nothing has been done to the two ton system. I took readings in heat and cool modes. I will post each system alone for clarity. Two Ton Cool mode Suction Pressure 75 PSIG Line Temp 55.1 Discharge Pressure 175 PSIG Line Temp 91.5 Earth Loop Vapor Pressure 170 PSIG Line Temp 78.9 Liquid Pressure 85 PSIG Line Temp 51.9 Air Coil Vapor Pressure 75 PSIG Line Temp 52.8 Liquid Pressure 85 PSIG Line Temp 52.6 Air Coil Air Entering 77.6 db 62.8 wb Air Coil Leaving 50.8 db 48.5 wb Amp Draw at the compressor C- 6.15 S- 4.87 R- 6.56 I took reads on all three leads Voltage 247.8 Total BTUH 34,637 24,892 Sensible 9745 Latent |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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22 Sep 2009 07:31 AM |
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Two Ton Heat Mode Suction Pressure 70 PSIG Line Temp 44.7 Discharge Pressure 215 PSIG Line Temp 123.2 Earthloop Vapor 50 PSIG Line Temp 53.7 Liquid 140 PSIG Line Temp 75.3 Aircoil Vapor 220 PSIG Line Temp 127.3 Liquid 220 PSIG Line Temp 98.5 Compressor Amps C- 7.48 S- 4.68 R- 7.09 247.8 VAC Aircoil air temps entering 83.3 leaving 105.6 21,676 BTUH |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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22 Sep 2009 07:48 AM |
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Four Ton Cool, Mode Suction Pressure 63 PSIG Line Temp 53.0 Discharge Pressure 210 PSIG Line Temp 134.7 Eartloop Vapor 225 PSIG Line temp 123.7 Liquid 175 PSIG Line Temp 76.4 Aircoil Vapor 67 PSIG Line Temp 61.4 Liquid 86 PSIG Line Temp 64.7 Compressor Amps C- 13.61 S- 9.56 R- 12.78 248.2 VAC Aircoil Air Temps Entering 71.4 db 60.0 wb Leaving 50.2 db 47.7 wb Total BTUH 56,687 Sensible BTUH 38,923 Latent BTUH 17,764 Heat Mode Compressor Pressure Suction 54 PSIG Line Temp 43.1 Discharge 225 PSIG Line Temp 121.4 Earthloop Vapor 54 PSIG Line Temp 53.5 Liquid 118 PSIG Line Temp 74.6 Aircoil Vapor 225 PSIG Line Temp 131.3 Liquid 225 PSIG Line Temp 91.5 Aircoil Air Temps Entering 74.6 Leaving 101.2 48,838 BTUH Compressor Amp Draw C- 14.08 S- 9.29 R- 13.09 |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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22 Sep 2009 08:05 AM |
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Five Ton Cool Mode Compressor Pressure Suction 45 PSIG Line Temp 33.2 Discharge 170 PSIG Line Temp 108.6 Earthloop Vapor 170 PSIG Line Temp 116.3 Liquid 110 PSIG Line Temp 65.4 Aircoil Vapor 45 PSIG Line Temp 43.4 Liquid 72 PSIG Line Temp 56.4 Aircoil Air Temps Entering 71.7 db 59.6 wb Leaving 42.2 db 38.9 wb Compressor Amp Draw C- 18.63 S- 12.08 R- 20.74 248.2 VAC Total BTUH= 96,862 Sensible BTUH=59,738 Latent BTUH=37,124 Sounds crazy I know. I measured several times.
Five Ton Heat Mode Compressor Pressure Suction 46 PSIG Line Temp 42.9 Discharge 220 PSIG LIne Temp 138.8 Earthloop Vapor 48 PSIG Line Temp 42.9 Liquid 195 PSIG Line Temp 96.7 Aircoil Vapor 220 PSIG Line Temp 129.3 Liquid 205 PSIG Line Temp 97.6 Aircoil Air Temps Entering 76.1 Leaving 99.5 Compressor Amp Draw C- 20.48 S- 12.07 R- 21.04 248.2 VAC Sensible heat 53,071 BTUH Thanks again to everyone for the positive input. Brian |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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22 Sep 2009 09:27 PM |
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5 ton amps came way down - that's a good sign. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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24 Sep 2009 10:37 AM |
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Here are the reads from 09/17/09. The 4 ton unit was turned off By Brian on 09/16/09 since he did not complete the part repacement till 09/17/09. 2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
09/17/09
4 ton unit off |
00090 00 |
1931 00 |
4841 00 |
3326 26
High 71F |
09/18/09
All units forced on and tested by Brian |
00093 03 |
1936 05 |
4846 05 |
3395 69
High 74F |
09/19/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3422 27
High 69F |
09/20/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3452 30
High 74F |
09/21/09 |
00094 01 |
1938 02 |
4847 01 |
3484 32
High 77F |
09/22/09 |
00098 04 |
1948 10 |
4855 08 |
3530 46
High 80F |
09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47 High 75F | What do you all think about the consumption? Please give your input. Thanks for all the assistance so far. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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24 Sep 2009 09:54 PM |
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I'm having trouble divorcing your house loads from unit loads: 17Sep09 house load 26kwh. 18Sep09 unit total load 13, grand total load 69 house load 57?
19Sep09 house load 27 - Ok
20Sep09 house load 30 - ok
21Sep09 house load 28 unit load 4 - ok
22Sep 09 house load 24 unit load 22 - Just 3 degrees increase outside raised unit load so much?
23Sep09 house load 32 Unit load 15 - that on a high temp of 75, but on 21Sep09 high was 77 and unit load only 4 |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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27 Sep 2009 10:00 AM |
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2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
09/17/09
4 ton unit off |
00090 00 |
1931 00 |
4841 00 |
3326 26
High 71F |
09/18/09
All units forced on and tested by Brian |
00093 03 |
1936 05 |
4846 05 |
3395 69
High 74F |
09/19/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3422 27
High 69F |
09/20/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3452 30
High 74F |
09/21/09 |
00094 01 |
1938 02 |
4847 01 |
3484 32
High 77F |
09/22/09 |
00098 04 |
1948 10 |
4855 08 |
3530 46
High 80F |
09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47 High 75F | What do you all think about the consumption? Please give your input. Thanks for all the assistance so far. 22Sep 09 house load 24 unit load 22 - Just 3 degrees increase outside raised unit load so much? 23Sep09 house load 32 Unit load 15 - that on a high temp of 75, but on 21Sep09 high was 77 and unit load only 4
I see that on 22nd the high is 80 F up from 77 F on the 21st (may have had higher nightime temps on the 21st resulting in units running at night on the 21st as well)
On the 21st high was 77 up from 74F on the 20th . Hence units may have run less at night on the 20th. Also, does not humidity levels have something to do with unit consumption? |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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27 Sep 2009 12:37 PM |
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It would be really helpful to know runtimes, so we could compute the actual load. However, off-the-cuff, the numbers make some sense. On a moderate, sunny day, you might expect the system to run for 1-2 hours and the resulting loads are right in line with that. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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29 Sep 2009 11:52 AM |
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Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to measure running time.
Here are the final reads -COOLING MODE! I very reluctantly switched to heating mode yesterday after taking the reads.
2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47 High 75F |
09/24/09 |
00102 01 |
1956 02 |
4863 02 |
3608 31
High 71F |
09/25/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3637 29
High 71F |
09/26/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3660 23
High 63F |
09/27/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3686 26
High 71F |
09/28/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3710 24
High 63F | I will continue to post reads on HEATING MODE . Please continue to offer input. Thanks again. I have talked to Brian and he said he would look at the previous reads and try to offer a possible explanation to the questions you have . |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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30 Sep 2009 06:23 PM |
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I am posting my first two days of heating mode reads for you to comment on. I can easily see that there is still something significantly wrong with my 4 Ton unit.
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2 Ton |
4 Ton |
5 Ton |
Main |
09/28/09
Before units
Switched to Heating Mode
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00102 |
1956 |
4863 |
3710
High 63F |
09/29/09 |
00107 05
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1991 35
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4868 05
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3790 80
High 58F |
09/30/09 |
00113 06
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2022 31 |
4875 07 |
3869 79
| Please comment on all probable problems with it. Brian is out of town till early next week and hence unable to take a look at it now. Thanks again! |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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30 Sep 2009 07:02 PM |
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Ouch, that's really high! I know you said that you don't have a way of measuring the time the system actually runs. However, this is critical data for diagnosis.
It would be extremely useful if you could simply time how long that system runs vs. how long it is off, one of these nights while the system runs. We need at least one complete cycle. If you check the outdoor temperature at the same time, that will be very useful.
So, for example, say it runs for 30 minutes, turns off for 5, then runs again for 34 minutes, turns off for 4 etc. when it is 55F outside. That will tell us two interesting things.
First, we could determine how hard the system has to work at a given temperature. Second, the "off" time would let us know how fast the house is losing heat.
A third piece of good info would be the temperature of the air going into the return and coming out of the supply. This will give us a rough idea of how much heat the system is delivering to your home while it's running in a malfunctioning mode like it is now.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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30 Sep 2009 10:03 PM |
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Readington sells LCD hourmeters for $30 that increment on presence of any voltage from 20-277. I have several of them on water heater elements and Y1, Y2 control signals on my geo. For under $100 I know exact runtimes of geo system and water heater every day.
This is in keeping with my signature here. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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01 Oct 2009 08:40 AM |
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Thank you for your suggestions. I will try timing the 4 ton unit run times and off times -possibly in the evening /night and will also obtain outside temp at the time. I will also look into the meters once Brian gets back. I hope to get this info posted tomorrow. Being in this forum has given me valuable insight and information on geothermal systems and I continue to learn! Thanks again! |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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01 Oct 2009 07:50 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 09/30/2009 10:03 PM Readington sells LCD hourmeters for $30 that increment on presence of any voltage from 20-277. I have several of them on water heater elements and Y1, Y2 control signals on my geo. For under $100 I know exact runtimes of geo system and water heater every day.
This is in keeping with my signature here. Hey Engineer, which model do you use. I went to the website and was quickly mired down in the all of the choices. Thanks
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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02 Oct 2009 09:15 AM |
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Dewayne,
I couldn't find my paperwork during a brief search, and it appears from their website that models have changed. Here's what I think I'd go with today, pasted from Grainger website - their item # 3AE20 for $32.70. I may have gotten mine from DrillSpot for $30 even, but that was 2 years ago.
REDINGTON 3311-0000 Hour Meter, Electronic - 2.04 x 1.10 - 2-Hole Rectangular
* Electrical * > Counters & Hour Meters * > Hour Meters * > Hour Meter, Electronic
LCD Electronic Hour Meter, 2 Hole Rectangular, Registers Elapsed Time to 99999.9 Hr, LCD Polarized for High Visibility in Sunlight, NEMA 4/4X, Bezel Face Width 2.04 Inches, Height 1.10 Inches, Length from Back to Bezel 0.44 Inches, Voltage 10-277 VDC or 20-277 VAC @ 50/60 Hz, Display 6 Digits, Number Height 7 Millimeters, Case Black Polymer, Fits Panel Opening 1.45 x 0.95 Inches, Spade Terminals 1/4 Inch/6.3 Millimeters, Includes Clip Retainer, Mounting Screws, -40 Celsius To + 85 Celsius
The broad AC and DC voltage input range means it will increment on anything from a tractor ignition switch (12 VDC) to 240 VAC across a contactor output - very flexible
I have two on each of Y1 and Y2 lines off my zone board and one more on lower element of my main water heater (inactive since I deployed Geyser HPWH)
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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05 Oct 2009 11:56 AM |
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Sorry for the delay.
Here are the operating times for the 4 ton unit on 10/04/09. It services the basement and upstairs-2 separate zones.
Start time: 5.38 PM 6.00PM 6.36 PM 7.04PM 7.32PM 7.44PM 8.05PM
End Time: 5.41PM 6.06PM 6.42PM 7.10PM 7.38PM 7.48PM 8.11PM
Run Time 3 mins 6 mins 6 mins 6 mins 6mins 4 mins 6 mins
Zone Running: Upstairs(U) Basement(B) B B B U B
Yesterday, high was 57F and low was 45F and at the time, measurements were taken temps were about 50F.
Thanks for all the assistance. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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05 Oct 2009 12:00 PM |
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Here are the reads for the different units:
2 Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton
10/01/09 |
00121 08 |
2053 31 |
4883 08 |
3951 82
High 60F |
10/02/09 |
00127 06 |
2082 29 |
4885 02 |
4026 75
High 57F |
10/03/09 |
00133 06 |
2108 26 |
4893 08 |
4091 65
High 55F |
10/04/09 |
00139 06 |
2132 24 |
4898 05 |
4155 64
High 57F | |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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05 Oct 2009 04:49 PM |
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Am I correct in combining the last two posts - that the 4 ton unit ran for a grand total of 37 minutes on 4 October and used 24 kwh of electricity?
I hope I'm wrong! |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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05 Oct 2009 09:13 PM |
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I'm looking at it a bit differently. We have 31 minutes of run time between 5:38 and 8:05, which is 147 minutes total time. I exclude the last run so that we can compute whole number of cycles. 31/147 is roughly 1/5 duty cycle when the temperature was ~50F.
So, by a crude extrapolation: 24 hour run time at 50F is approximately 5 hours for which we'd expect to be using about 20+- kwh
The things that seems off to me are: 5 hours runtime at 50F - seems like a lot to me for a highly insulated home. In my home, using the same 4-ton system (ECR DX system with 4x100ft ground loops) at 50F average daily temperature runs for about 3 hours at the start of the heating season, with a system design temperature of about 15F. However, interestingly, at the end of the heating season, it might run for 5 hours or more, when the ground has frozen from the ground loops. I don't want to go into details on my system to confuse things, but am just providing these numbers just to give some comparisons.
The other obvious issue is extremely short run-times. That's not great for the compressors. Maybe the span is too small?
So my short summary is: - system is short cycling, may want a bigger temperature span set for the thermostat - kwh used for this duty cycle seems essentially in line. - run time at this temperature seems higher than expected, especially with one zone being the basement. But this really depends on the heat load
going forward, Do you know the manual-J heat loads for the zones served by this system? Sorry if you mentioned before, but this would help tremendously here. It should be easy to calculate an expected heat load at 50F and compare that with the projected heat output of the system to see if things are in line.
-Ted
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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06 Oct 2009 06:33 AM |
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You can not extrapolate run time. Heat gain from sunshine et al varies. j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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06 Oct 2009 08:06 AM |
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as noted, its rough, but it does work, especially if you have data from cooler temps. I use this all the time to sanity check things and it does work for that purpose. No, i would not use this for system design but for cases like this its a useful exercise.
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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06 Oct 2009 08:40 AM |
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Just a quick clarification. I am sure the 4 ton unit ran all through the night on 10/04/09 similarly but more frequently as the temps dropped. My reads were only taken for the time period specificied. I will have Brian check these probable issues out. Thanks again!
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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07 Oct 2009 09:46 AM |
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Brian came yesterday and turned the 4 ton Earthlinked unit off and switched my basement and upstairs zones to emergency gas heat. He will be installing the meters mentioned earlier in this thread and also putting temp sensors in my basement to check all parameters. After he switched to emergency gas, a curious situation occurs. When the system comes on, the gas burners come on for a minute or less and turn off and the airhandlers stay on for a few minutes before turning off and the cycle repeats every 20 mins. Any guesses? Outside temps in low 50s. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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07 Oct 2009 03:57 PM |
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Burners tripping out on a high temp limit? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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07 Oct 2009 06:49 PM |
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This is the one that we always thought had a ductwork issue.
High limit as "engineer" pointed out, can lead to short cycling like that, ...AKA, duct work to small, dirty filter, wrong air volume.
Also what kind of thermostats do you have?
Maybe Brian should put a regular PSC motor back in that one, to test against the ECM, just a thought. or keep the front door off the furnace to see what happens to short cycle.
This all goes back to," bad duct work can kill a heat pump",but it can also " kill a furnace"! |
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geo fan
Basic Member
Posts:408
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07 Oct 2009 07:02 PM |
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Ill jump in here , If the burners are on for LESS then 1 min my first thought would be stat . only because for a high limit to trip in that short amount of time the fan would have to be locked up . but the question is . Does it shut off while the stat is calling . or is the system short cycling because thats what its being told to do . |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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07 Oct 2009 08:08 PM |
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That could well be the case. I have nearly zero experience with gas home furnaces. (Gas units I deal with make 30,000 lb / hr or more steam - controls are a BIT different...)
Adding support to Geo Fan's stat theory is the short cycling of the 4 ton geo unit a page or so back in similar weather - cycles of 3-5 minutes by a geo unit could easily equate to 1 minute cycles by gas heat.
Perhaps the stat is a bit too sensitive or is improperly located near a supply |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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07 Oct 2009 11:07 PM |
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Posted By geo fan on 10/07/2009 7:02 PM Ill jump in here , If the burners are on for LESS then 1 min my first thought would be stat . only because for a high limit to trip in that short amount of time the fan would have to be locked up . but the question is . Does it shut off while the stat is calling . or is the system short cycling because thats what its being told to do . Welcome back GF, missed ya! If the duct work were causing the short cycle folks, wouldn't it have done it pre-geo? j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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08 Oct 2009 08:27 AM |
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Thank you for the input. My guess is also that it is a thermostat issue. Brian replaced all my previous thermostats with some state of the art Honeywell ones. I have to find out the model. This did not happen with my gas furnace previously. Hence it cannot be a duct problem. My electricity use with no 4Ton unit on is also higher than normal probably because of the airhandlers coming on frequently. He is coming today to check it out. Here are the reads.
10/04/09 |
00139 06 |
2132 24 |
4898 05 |
4155 64
High 57F |
10/05/09 |
00143 04 |
2159 27 |
4900 02 |
4226 71
High 57F |
10/06/09
At 3PM , 4 Ton
Switched off and system set to Emergency Gas Mode |
00149 06 |
2184 25 |
4904 04 |
4296 70
High 61F |
10/07/09 |
00155 06 |
2184 00 |
4905 01 |
4339 43
High 57F | |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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08 Oct 2009 08:36 AM |
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That is why I questioned the thermostat. If there is a cycle rate per hour or a heat pump/gas heat switch on the back, in the wrong position.
Or it could be as simple as, debris in the drain line, causing a backup of condensate from the furnace to shut the flame off. but if the furnace is completely shuting off after flame goes out, its probably not. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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08 Oct 2009 08:43 AM |
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Thanks for the quick response. I will have Brian look into these pointers when he gets here . |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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08 Oct 2009 10:10 AM |
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"This did not happen with my gas furnace previously. Hence it cannot be a duct problem." The ducts are the same, but there are new ECM motors pushing air through them.
Regards,
Masoud |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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08 Oct 2009 03:35 PM |
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I am told that the Honeywell thermostats are Model : TH6320R1004 with wireless capability. To Mr. Masoud, I am not sure I understand the drift of the new ECM motors causing short cycling. Please elaborate. Thanks. Brian was here this morning and checked things out. He thinks it may be something to do with the cycling rate of the basement thermostat. He will get in touch with their tech dept. and will have an update when he comes next week with the meters and temp sensors to monitor system run times .
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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08 Oct 2009 05:15 PM |
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My point was that air handlers and ducts are two major components of the air distribution system and work together. Changing one, could have changed the equation, resulting in wrong air volume that was brought up by JackH at the top of this page.
Regards,
Masoud |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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15 Oct 2009 10:17 AM |
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Here are the past week's meter reads. Brian will be here tomorrow with the run time meters and temp sensors . He also has a call into Honeywell for adjusting thermostat sensitivity. My 4 Ton unit is still off and system is on emergency gas mode.
2Ton 4 Ton 5Ton Main
10/08/09 |
00162 07 |
2184 00 |
4911 06 |
4384 45
High 61F |
10/09/09 |
00168 06 |
2184 00 |
4911 00 |
4425 41
High 52F |
10/10/09 |
00176 08 |
2184 00 |
4920 09 |
4475 50
High 52F |
10/11/09 |
00186 10 |
2184 00 |
4932 12 |
4535 60
High 43F |
10/12/09 |
00199 13 |
2184 00 |
4944 12 |
4598 63
High 50F |
10/13/09 |
00208 09 |
2184 00 |
4952 08 |
4649 51
High 49F |
10/14/09 |
00221 13 |
2184 00 |
4968 16 |
4718 69
High 46F | Please let me know if the 2Ton and 5Ton systems are operating as they should with the current temps. Thanks again! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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15 Oct 2009 12:11 PM |
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There may be a faster way to determining if your system(s) are indeed not performing.
My recommendation is to ask your HVAC professional that's coming tomorrow to include in his measurements whatever's necessary to:
1. compute COP
2. enable look up of manufacturer's COP spec (it will vary as a function of various parameters that may need to be additionally measured).
Then, ask him to do the COP computation, look up what the spec is for the conditions of measurement, and simply tell you if the computed COP is at or below manufacturer spec. And do this for each unit.
This is a straight forward exercise with a water-to-air GSHP. What I don't know is how difficult this is with refrigerant-to-air (DX) technology systems.
If COP can be measured here, then it's going to give you a 'figure of merit' for the complete system - the refrigerant piping, the compressor pumping, and GSHP unit itself, that can be compared to 'good' versus 'not good.'
The reason I offer these comments is because, 9 or so pages into this thread, after a lot of expense on the part of the HVAC installer, and after a lot of aggravation / cost to the owner, still, it's very uncertain if it's the equipment or the house (including the duct system).
Hence, the suggestion here is thought to assist with at least getting quickly to the decision point of 'it's the house' or 'it's the equipment.'
Good luck.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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17 Oct 2009 09:41 AM |
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Thanks Curt, I am anxious to try these out.
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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10 Nov 2009 11:29 AM |
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Hi everyone,
I haven't been updating recently since there was not much to update. Brian had to order the meters from another state and they took their time. He is in the process of putting them in. Hopefully, he will get it done today. I briefly turned on the 4Ton unit(on 10/17/09 and 10/18/09) and the energy drain happened immediately. I turned it off as in the table after talking to Brian. Both my basement and upstairs zones are on gas heat presently. I just got my Oct 09 bill and I noted this from the bill.
Last year at the same time, I had complete geothermal heat. Here's some data , temperature maintained 72F
Last year gas usage/day (cooking and hot water only) : 0.248MCF
This year gas usage/day(cooking, hot water and heating basement and upstairs-4t unit area): 0.397MCF
In other words, the gas consumption for heating the area of the 4Ton unit(upstairs and basement)/day is : 0.397-0.248=0.149MCF
For 30 daysi.e. a month it is 0.1249*30= 4.47MCF=$45.14 in heating costs.($10.098/MCF)
From the statistics provided to me by Brian, this unit, in October was supposed to consume 332.6kwh translating to about $30 in heating costs.
If you observe the fact that the 4Ton unit consumed 37kwh in just one day with moderate temps, that would amount to 1110 kwh for 30 days or $100!(conservative estimate!). Even the 5Ton unit uses less!!
So, people is it wrong for me to assert that this unit is a piece of JUNK! The only hole I see is the MONEY PIT!
Please offer me your well meaning comments.
Thanks!
drao
2T 4T 5T Main
10/15/09 |
00235 14 |
2184 00 |
4989 21 |
4789 71
High 45F
|
10/16/09 |
No reads taken |
No reads taken |
No reads taken |
No reads taken
High 46F |
10/17/09
4 Ton started back at noon with modified
Cycle times on stats
|
00262 00 |
2190 06
System worked
Only 6 hrs before reading |
5021 32 |
4936 147
High 47F |
10/18/09
Turned off 4 Ton at 8PM after talking to Brian |
00275 13 |
2227 37 |
5045 24 |
5050 114
High 50F |
10/19/09 |
00287 12 |
2230 03 |
5048 03 |
5100 50
High 60F |
10/20/09 |
00292 06 |
2230 00 |
5048 00 |
5136 36
High 62F |
10/21/09
Brian turned on 4 Ton unit to check performance for 30 mins |
00294 02 |
2231 01 |
5048 00 |
5166 30
High 67F
|
10/22/09 |
00297 03 |
2231 00 |
5048 00 |
5195 29
High 59F |
10/23/09 |
00309 12 |
2231 00 |
5053 05 |
5251 56
High 60F |
10/24/09
|
00316 07 |
2231 00 |
5054 01 |
5288 37
High 54F |
10/25/09 |
00325 09 |
2231 00 |
5062 08 |
5343 55
High 58F
|
10/26/09 |
00333 08 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5380 37
High 61F |
10/27/09 |
00338 05 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5413 33
High 55F |
10/28/09 |
00344 06 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5447 34
High 54F |
10/29/09 |
00350 06 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5489 42
High 55F |
10/30/09 |
00357 07 |
2231 00 |
5064 02 |
5526 37
High 70F |
10/31/09 |
00361 04 |
2231 00 |
5064 00 |
5560 34
High 61F |
11/01/09 |
00370 09 |
2231 00 |
5072 08 |
5610 50
High 48F |
11/02/09 |
00383 13 |
2231 00 |
5080 08 |
5664 54
High 49F |
11/03/09 |
00395 12 |
2231 00 |
5089 09 |
5718 54
High 47F |
11/04/09
|
00409 14 |
2231 00 |
5101 12 |
5779 61
High 45F |
11/05/09 |
00421 12 |
2231 00 |
5112 11 |
5834 55
High 47F |
11/06/09 |
00437 16 |
2231 00 |
5125 13 |
5899 65
High 48F |
11/07/09 |
No Reads |
No Reads |
No Reads |
No Reads
High 66F |
11/08/09 |
00452 15 |
2231 00 |
5132 07 |
5984 85
High 69F |
11/09/09 |
00454 02 |
2231 00 |
5132 00 |
6014 30 High 65F | |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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11 Nov 2009 12:41 PM |
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Just an update. The meters have been installed by Brian today and I am going to switch to complete geothermal this evening after reads are taken- for a 24 hr period so run times may be obtained. Brian turned on the 4Ton unit temporarily to check meters installed correctly. Tomorrow at the same time, I will switch 4Ton unit off and go back to gas heat so as to stem the energy hemorrhage. I will post data when I have it. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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25 Nov 2009 11:36 AM |
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Just an update. I have sent run time info with 4TON EARTHLINKED DX UNIT for 24 hrs and then switched the same to NATURAL GAS MODE FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME to Brian. He is currently in the process of crunching numbers and will get back to me with the result which I will post promptly. Please check for updates. " THE TRUTH OF THE PUDDING(PUMPKIN PIE) IS IN THE EATING OF IT. ALSO, THE GOOSE (TURKEY) IS FINALLY COOKED! HAPPY THANKSGIVING! |
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soxster
New Member
Posts:19
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14 Dec 2009 11:40 AM |
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Did this finally get resolved?? I am looking at a Earthlinked DX system in southern Missouri (5 ton), and hearing cases like this, obviously gives me pause/hesitation, before jumping onto the geothermal bandwagon. I hope Earthlink reps are paying attention for future sales potential. I do not want to buy into a system that is not consumer responsive to problems with their equipment. thanks |
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southline
New Member
Posts:20
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16 Dec 2009 10:09 PM |
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Well.....? What happend next? |
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soxster
New Member
Posts:19
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20 Dec 2009 06:03 PM |
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I guess this got resolved I see no further gripping here. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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20 Dec 2009 08:31 PM |
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Posted By soxster on 12/20/2009 6:03 PM I guess this got resolved I see no further gripping here. Sounds like a leap of faith to me.
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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05 Jan 2010 05:35 PM |
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No the issue has not been resolved. I need to get back with the flow hood and blower door to confirm/delete envelope and duct issues. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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06 Jan 2010 07:52 AM |
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Posted By soxster on 12/14/2009 11:40 AM Did this finally get resolved?? I am looking at a Earthlinked DX system in southern Missouri (5 ton), and hearing cases like this, obviously gives me pause/hesitation, before jumping onto the geothermal bandwagon. According to the installer it has not been resolved. Out of curiosity, why would you avoid the entire "geothermal bandwagon" vs Earthlinked based on the information in this thread? Are no other products offered in your area? Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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soxster
New Member
Posts:19
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06 Jan 2010 05:07 PM |
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This was a very very early post.....being new on this forum, like one of my first few post, when I was trying to do as much educating my self as possible on geo....... and hearing that there might be issues with earthlinked (which I was looking at). My bad....... by looking at one example and realizing in general, that these tech forums usually brings out the industry/individual problems and people that has issues ..... they naturally wanting to vent on these issues (now including my self). As others have stated, you do no usually hear much from the satisfied consumers. But, as I have eluded in another post on rebates, I was satisfied with what I have found on earthlinked systems and was ready to purchase and have installed. With a few post later, and the utility unwilling to help subsidize a dx system in the state of Missouri..... if you live in certain electric coops.......I am back to square one. I really think geo is the way to go after doing some due diligent reading, but for me, it probably will now not be economically feasible. I feel a DX system is my only option for me due to location......but back on topic........I think more people needs to jump on the geo bandwagon again after doing some self education on this subject. So I retract the above statement. Geo should be embraced as a renewable source of heating and cooling your home. I do hope the system on this post gets resolved satisfactorily,but sounds like there are many potential issues, sizing, ducting and etc. Keep us updated. Thanks |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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07 Jan 2010 12:09 AM |
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Posted By soxster on 01/06/2010 5:07 PM I feel a DX system is my only option for me due to location...... How 'bout you start a thread describing your situ. and see if we have some thoughts...... Curiously while DX boasts smaller impact installations, IMHO it actually offers less design flexibility. More than one DX installer offers open loop as well for this very reason. j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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183eej
Basic Member
Posts:127
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07 Jan 2010 05:54 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 01/07/2010 12:09 AM
Posted By soxster on 01/06/2010 5:07 PM I feel a DX system is my only option for me due to location...... How 'bout you start a thread describing your situ. and see if we have some thoughts...... Curiously while DX boasts smaller impact installations, IMHO it actually offers less design flexibility. More than one DX installer offers open loop as well for this very reason. j Joe, The open loop with DX comment is interesting. Are the installers up your way marrying the Earthlinked compressors with water loops rather than copper loops? If so, are any of them offering closed water loops with Earthlinked? I find this idea intriguing because the real meat on the Earthlinked bones is what's inside the box...the refrigerant flow controls. |
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Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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183eej
Basic Member
Posts:127
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07 Jan 2010 06:14 AM |
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Posted By soxster on 01/06/2010 5:07 PM This was a very very early post.....being new on this forum, like one of my first few post, when I was trying to do as much educating my self as possible on geo....... and hearing that there might be issues with earthlinked (which I was looking at). My bad....... by looking at one example and realizing in general, that these tech forums usually brings out the industry/individual problems and people that has issues ..... they naturally wanting to vent on these issues (now including my self). As others have stated, you do no usually hear much from the satisfied consumers. But, as I have eluded in another post on rebates, I was satisfied with what I have found on earthlinked systems and was ready to purchase and have installed. With a few post later, and the utility unwilling to help subsidize a dx system in the state of Missouri..... if you live in certain electric coops.......I am back to square one. I really think geo is the way to go after doing some due diligent reading, but for me, it probably will now not be economically feasible. I feel a DX system is my only option for me due to location......but back on topic........I think more people needs to jump on the geo bandwagon again after doing some self education on this subject. So I retract the above statement. Geo should be embraced as a renewable source of heating and cooling your home. I do hope the system on this post gets resolved satisfactorily,but sounds like there are many potential issues, sizing, ducting and etc. Keep us updated. Thanks Soxter, Are you familiar with the Audit product from Elite Software? www.elitesoft.comI installed my DX system back in 2007 and I didn't have any type of incentive from the federal government or a utilty and the projected performance on my DX system was still compelling. What we did was complete a good Manual J on the house with Elite's RHVAC software then transferred the data to the Audit program and compared a properly sized Earthlinked system to a properly sized water sourced geothermal system, a high efficiency air sourced heat pump with a 90 AFUE natural gas supplmental furnace and a 13 SEER AC with a 90 AFUE gas furnace. I reran the same numbers and baked in the 30% federal tax credit and it was even more compelling. With a 30% federal tax on the table, you might consider taking a fresh look at this using the Elite software as a tool to help you understand what is the best choice. |
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Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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soxster
New Member
Posts:19
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07 Jan 2010 05:06 PM |
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I do need to start a new thread with my own issues and let everyone get back to drao's original post and his install problems. Need to head to work for now. Hope Drao's earthlinked install finally gets resolved to his satisfaction. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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12 Jan 2010 10:38 AM |
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Posted By 183eej on 01/07/2010 5:54 AM
Posted By joe.ami on 01/07/2010 12:09 AM
Posted By soxster on 01/06/2010 5:07 PM I feel a DX system is my only option for me due to location...... How 'bout you start a thread describing your situ. and see if we have some thoughts...... Curiously while DX boasts smaller impact installations, IMHO it actually offers less design flexibility. More than one DX installer offers open loop as well for this very reason. j Joe, The open loop with DX comment is interesting. Are the installers up your way marrying the Earthlinked compressors with water loops rather than copper loops? If so, are any of them offering closed water loops with Earthlinked? I find this idea intriguing because the real meat on the Earthlinked bones is what's inside the box...the refrigerant flow controls. Sorry, mis spoke. Intended to say offers "water source" as well. Classic brain running ahead of my fingers, I had a picture in my minds eye of a city installation (open loop) that discharges into storm drain. But I have seen DX open loop as well though it begins to lose it's lustre in that application. Can't imagine closed water loop/DX hybrid. It would take a lot of heat exchanger in the basement. I agree with you that the controls within Earthlinked are the real win by employing lowest refrigerant pressures possible (ergo lowest amp draw). I think they would make sense on a water source system as well. j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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28 Jan 2010 10:07 AM |
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Hi everyone,
The issue -ONE AND A HALF YEARS'S WORTH is still not fixed! It has been a physically and mentally exhausting process. I had a visit-I'm sure not only for my benefit about 10 days ago from Mike and their engineer. They are again pointing fingers at the HOLE-frankly I'm tired of this dated song!
You might be interested to know that my Dec 2009 utility bill with two units(5 and 4 Ton running on gas ) and my 2 ton unfortunately still on Geo(no back up gas on this one) was $685 vs $757 in Dec 2008. The two who came to visit 10 days ago claim it is because of my utility(gas vs electric) prices or some baloney like that! Good thing they didn't say it in my presence or I would have laughed out loud. I know that consumers energy isn't doing me any charity. It has also come to my attention that Brian has been approached by another customer with a 10 ton system(6 and 4 ton) in Michigan who has a 3500 sq ft home(oversized system I would think) who got a whopping $1200 utility bill ! I feel his pain. His yard has been dug up 3 times to fix? the system but no success.
Any layperson can see that a 350% efficient system compared to a 90% efficient system produces high bills, there is something ABSOLUTELY wrong with the system.
Oh, by the way, my 2Ton unit (without the resistance strips) consumed all of 45 KWH in a day to heat ! I don't use that much electricity daily even to run my home.
I would advise anyone considering purchase of Earthlinked to BEWARE!
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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28 Jan 2010 12:00 PM |
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Utility costs are very important! Based on costs you quoted way back in the thread, your gas is about $12/mmbtu at 85% efficiency and electric was about 10.5c/kwH. Using this as a baseline, you could expect the following:
COP $/mmbtu %of gas cost 1 31 260% 2 16.5 130% 2.6 12 100% (break even point) 3 10 86% 3.5 9 75%
So, if your system was running at an AVERAGE COP of 3.5 (350%), your heating costs should be about 25% lower than with gas. The break even point is a COP of about 2.6. So your system could be 260% efficient and still cost you as much as gas.
Can you post your total gas use and total geo electric use for November, December and January? |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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28 Jan 2010 01:03 PM |
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Along the same lines, if a system is 350% efficient and a person previously used all electric heat (at 100% efficiency), then I would expect the electricity cost for heating to be roughly 28.6% of the original bill (100/350), or a savings of 71.4% (other things being equal).
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Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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29 Jan 2010 11:06 AM |
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Posted By cnygeo on 01/28/2010 12:00 PM Utility costs are very important! Based on costs you quoted way back in the thread, your gas is about $12/mmbtu at 85% efficiency and electric was about 10.5c/kwH. Using this as a baseline, you could expect the following:
COP $/mmbtu %of gas cost 1 31 260% 2 16.5 130% 2.6 12 100% (break even point) 3 10 86% 3.5 9 75%
So, if your system was running at an AVERAGE COP of 3.5 (350%), your heating costs should be about 25% lower than with gas. The break even point is a COP of about 2.6. So your system could be 260% efficient and still cost you as much as gas.
Can you post your total gas use and total geo electric use for November, December and January? Hi, Here are the reads. Of course, it must be noted that I have stopped reading meters in November 2009 after talking with Brian and turning off the Geo 4Ton on 11/12/09 and 5 Ton on 11/23/09, switching to gas on the 4 and 5 Ton equipment. It was an electrical hemorrhage that needed to be stopped! My 2 ton has no back up and hence still on Geo.
My home base line electric use is 23kwh -35kwh/day(summer/winter). The electric readings here are totals(Geo plus Baseline electric). It may be noted that I just read the 2 Ton meter on Jan 11th 2010 and it consumed 45KWH in a 24 hr period (meter does not read resistance strips-only Geo equipment). Gas is used for hot water and cooking as well. In summer (when gas is only used for hot water and cooking -we use about 60 ccf/month-baseline gas) Price per kwh is $0.10 and Gas/ccf is $1.07 per ccf GAS(total) ELECTRIC(total)
Nov 2009 Bill 115 ccf 1631kwh Dec 2009 Bill 197 ccf 1566kwh
Jan 2009 Bill 429 ccf 2229kwh
Our house is constantly maintained at a temperature of 72degs F.
I hope you have all the data you requested. drao |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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07 Feb 2010 06:21 PM |
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Just thought I'd add the latest utility bill info for February 2010.
Please note 4 and 5 ton units running on Gas and 2 Ton still on Geothermal.
Total Utility Bill in Feb 2010 is $ 804.16 of which gas is $530.67 and electricity is $273.49
IN CONTRAST when all systems were geothermal,
Total utility Bill in Feb 2009 was $1040.21 , $236.05 more(just between the 4 Ton and 5 Ton) , gas bill was $304.01 and electric $735.20.
So, everyone WHERE ON EARTH(LINKED) ARE THE SAVINGS?
All they have ever done is try to cop out by stating poor insulation and bad ductwork. My duct work and insulation are the same for GEO and GAS.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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07 Feb 2010 06:32 PM |
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Forced air geo needs to move 2-3x the air than required for forced air fossil fired |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Brian Acuff
New Member
Posts:1
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15 Feb 2010 03:09 PM |
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As a new member to this forum and searching posts for geothermal installations, I realize most satisfied people don't post very often to brag about their savings, or how much they spent on a system. I was looking for ALL points of view and found yours.
Working with HVAC companies here in Texas, I've found no matter what product or system is employed, it has to be done correctly, tested and verified to ensure the least amount of problems down the road.
The electric bills you're experiencing sound more like a wiring issue if all other system operations have checked out. If your geo system is using that many kilowatts, it suggests, it's running constantly under load pulling amps. Assuming they've checked to make sure all functions are operating normally, then I'd look at the circuits feeding the geo system.
I suspect Earthlinked may be
getting beat up on this project unfairly. The problem experienced by this
homeowner is much more likely due to wiring connections TO the unit(s), not
INSIDE the unit(s) and that is the electrician's responsibility, not the HVAC contractor's. It can be tested very easily and
quickly by a competent electrician. However, I would not recommend using the
electrician who wired the home to sort this out. It's not in this individual's
best business interest to expose basic wiring deficiencies on a project that is
experiencing problems and the homeowner is not happy.
Since they've been back to troubleshoot previously with no success, sometimes it's more basic aspects of a project that some would take for granted, and not check.
Anyway, gotta look at all possibilities, good luck
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trister
New Member
Posts:10
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16 Feb 2010 11:59 AM |
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We are also having some high electric bill issues with the Earthlinked DX systems. We have 3-tons up and 4-tons down (0.5-tons for basement/conditioned crawl). All new duct work throughout. We also had foam insulation added to the foundation walls and underside of the roof. Our 3800 sq ft (old) house has some energy envelope issues that were known by the contractor during design. They were probably not readily repairable and inlude large, single pane, historic windows. Due to long-run cycles, we are wondering if the systems were undersized. We understand that this has been a very cold winter for our area but we would not have spent $45000 to have monthly electric bills over $400. We were told the J-manual calculations were in our folder, but the contractor never showed them to us.
One of the compressor units had the O-rings go bad and leaked all the coolant. We ran for over a month on aux heat strips before realizing there was a problem when we got a bill. Turns out this was a factory advisory and it was repaired free. We keep our systems set for 65-67 heating. |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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16 Feb 2010 04:54 PM |
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Trister - Where are you located? If you were in my area (Eastern PA) and lived in a 3800 SF old house with single glazed windows, $400/month would be quite inexpensive. Since $100 is probably your basic household electric usage, that's only $300 to heat your home. That's the equivalent of just 100 gallons of fuel oil. For comparison, I just came from an energy audit I did of a woman in a 1600 SF townhouse with a conventional heat pump and her electric bills around $400. Just trying to keep it in perspective. -Ted |
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eal
New Member
Posts:1
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15 Jul 2010 12:57 AM |
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Sorry to hear about problems some folks have had with their Earthlinked DX systems. I live in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC.
In Dec 2009 we replaced a 20 year old 4 ton air heat pump with a 4 ton Earthlinked DX system. Four 100' vertical wells in our backyard. Unfortunately the drillers hit a fair amount of water/mud void areas so we ended up sleeving about a third of each well adding to the drilling cost.
Our house is 2900 SF and has some passive solar features designed into it from the outset.
We ended up doing a three zone system off the one compressor using a new Carrier Infinity airhandler. We also added a desuperheater to our existing 80 gallon Sears domestic hot water heater.
The good news is that we have seen about a 55% drop in our heating bills when comparing Jan/Feb/March 2010 to the same period last year.
With the 30% Federal Tax Credit and some extra grants from our County and State I am estimating our break-even time for the overall investment to be about 5-6 years. The whole process was fairly time consuming but our contractor was excellent and we have been really happy with the system. I know there are also a lot of satisfied WaterFurnace customers as well but in doing some research early last year I seemed to come across more complaints about WaterFurnace than Earthlinked... especially with regards to corporate support after the systems have been installed if they run into problems. I have to admit I was also turned off toward Water Furnace after watching my parents who live in upstate NY and have an open loop WaterFurnace system struggle for nearly a year to get their system to operate properly....the system kept shutting itself down despite numerous attempted repairs by the contractor who put it in and at least two visits by the regional rep for WaterFurnace.
I think having gone through the whole process I would reiterate what I have seen others write when discussing geothermal heat pump systems..... Earthlinked and WaterFurnace are probably both very good systems but arguably the most important decision you have to make is to find an experienced and reputable contractor who will expertly install and tweak the system to make sure everything is working optimally. |
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Jim1977
New Member
Posts:1
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22 Dec 2010 02:56 PM |
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Posted By drao on 22 Aug 2009 11:03 AM
I have 3 units(2 ton ,4 ton and 5ton)-11- 50 ft umbrella loops were installed for my 8600 sq ft home(including basement). I have 4 zones in the house.
I have not attempted to read all the replies, but I wonder if you are getting a feedback effect from one zone to another? That is, if you were trying to cool the air in one zone that is heated in another zone, it would not help your efficiency. A lot of the houses are rather "open" these days, without much isolation to prevent air flow from one part to another, so I suppose it is a possibility you could consider if all others are excluded. I would shut off the units one by one and try to isolate the problem. |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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01 Jan 2011 03:45 PM |
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We are also having some high electric bill issues with the Earthlinked DX systems. We have 3-tons up and 4-tons down (0.5-tons for basement/conditioned crawl). All new duct work throughout. We also had foam insulation added to the foundation walls and underside of the roof. Our 3800 sq ft (old) house has some energy envelope issues that were known by the contractor during design. They were probably not readily repairable and inlude large, single pane, historic windows. Due to long-run cycles, we are wondering if the systems were undersized. We understand that this has been a very cold winter for our area but we would not have spent $45000 to have monthly electric bills over $400. We were told the J-manual calculations were in our folder, but the contractor never showed them to us. One of the compressor units had the O-rings go bad and leaked all the coolant. We ran for over a month on aux heat strips before realizing there was a problem when we got a bill. Turns out this was a factory advisory and it was repaired free. We keep our systems set for 65-67 heating. Your 3800 sq ft (old) home would cost far more were you heating it with oil or propane. My 3000 sq ft Queen Anne Colonial (farmhouse) with foamed attic and basement (nothing could be done with the walls - bubble construction) typically cost about $300 - $400 a month during the heating season. Previously using oil (1800 gallons a year) the cost would be $900 - $1100 during Dec, Jan, Feb. March and about $300 for November. Paul www.TotalGreenUS.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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02 Jan 2011 08:36 AM |
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Geo has a much poorer pay back against nat gas, but should not cost more energy to operate if working correctly. You'll notice I said energy not money. Earthlinked enjoys a good reputation. Unfortunately as I often say, things that are made by people and installed by people have lots of opportunity to fail. Folks who have Earthlinked problems may wish to start their own threads so they are not buried on page 20 of this one. That way folks who would like to help can read all responses before offering advice. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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08 Jun 2011 12:10 PM |
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This is just a follow up of my continuing nightmare. There was a visit in early February by the Earthlinked " expert", who cannot find anything wrong as expected. I have stopped using geothermal entirely and back to my gas furnace(thank God, I have back up). Also last summer, my entire house was Aerosealed and certified by them with all ductwork sealed to the best possible extent.
The 5 Ton unit alone continues to use 58 kwh on 89 deg day over a 24 hr period(cost on 5T alone per day around $10), thermostat at 77F and my 4T unit runs all the time , struggling to even maintain 81F(the meter on this gave up, I won't know what it has consumed) and had to be turned off. My 2T unit set at 78F uses 12 kwh.
I have sent repeated requests to both the contractor and Mike(distributor of Earthlinked) to just replace them with my original air conditioners and they are still debating if 58 kwh is too much for a 5 Ton machine to use in a day. I truly don't care. At this point. I just want to get back to being able to afford being comfortable as I did with my original A/C set at 75F all day long.
My entire bill with my original units(cooling, sprinklers everyday in summer and lighting circuits included and gas for cooking and hot water was $450), taking into account energy cost increases over 3 years.
At this rate, I will spend over $1000 per month on utilities alone!
Earthlinked has done absolutely nothing other than visiting me once every year and telling me that their units are working as they should. Their unit needs to rated as a piece of junk!
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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12 Jun 2011 08:55 AM |
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I'm sorry I've no advice to add at this point. I assure you perspective Earthlinked customers and dealers are following your saga. j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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15 Jun 2011 07:37 PM |
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I really wish they could figure it out for you. I have no suggestions at this point, either. Yours is definitely confusing, and it's also a big exception to the rule. My EarthLinked system is cooling my home wonderfully right this moment. And it's doing it very efficiently. We have numerous EarthLinked systems with sub-meters on them, and they all perform very well. I really would like to know what is going on with your system. |
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Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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Bart
New Member
Posts:1
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25 Jun 2011 07:09 PM |
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I have an Earthlink system in MIchigan and it works perfect. My suggestion to the customer with high electric use first find out if Temperature diference across the coil multiply that by CFM and Multiply that by 1.08 The answer is the amount of btu's the coil is giving you in heating mode, or removing in the cooling mode. Mine is 23TD X 1900cfm X 1.08 =47,196 btu's If the performance is good. Check the Amp draw with a clamp on amp meter. A4 ton should draw 16- 17 amps. Mine draws 14.1-14.5 amps. Multiply Voltage by the Amperage that will give you wattage. 14.5 X 240 =3480 divide by 1000 = 3.48KW X 6 and a half cents/KWH = aproximatly 23 cents and hour to run. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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26 Jun 2011 04:02 PM |
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I would find someone who can measure COP for you. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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04 Jul 2011 09:50 AM |
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I finally got my JUNK Earthlinked DX systems changed back to my original ordinary A/C units and I figured that you all would be interested in knowing the results. Here goes: 2T still on geothermal since I don't have regular A/C option on this . The 96F high is the highest temp of this season yet! I will post the geothermal reads before that on the next post. <!--[if gte mso 9]>
Normal
0
false
false
false
MicrosoftInternetExplorer4
Date
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2T
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4T
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5T
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Total Units
and High Temp(12 hr run at night)
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<!--[if gte mso 9]>
Normal
0
false
false
false
MicrosoftInternetExplorer4
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Reads taken at 6PM
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Regular A/C turned on 06/30/11
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06/30/2011
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7231
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3627
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6683
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82F
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07/01/2011
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7236
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3641
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6696
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32kwh, 87F
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07/02/2011
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7243
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3666
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6718
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54kwh, 96F
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07/03/2011
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7248
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3691
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6741
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53kwh, 87F |