New with possibly ridiculous questions
Last Post 13 Jan 2010 12:24 PM by MSG79. 16 Replies.
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sleepydreamUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2010 01:09 PM

We have found a home design we wish to build.  We would like to start talking to people and see what it would cost to build in our area.  Problem is, the site I found the home design on does not sell plans.  I assume I need actual plans to start getting estimates, but where on earth do I start?

The starting point for the home we want to build is at www.thenaturalhome.com

We do want to make significant changes to that plan though.  We wish to build the back wall, side walls and roof out of ICF, interior walls with regular concrete, with a heated concrete slab floor (acid stained), put a curved eave sunroom across the front (with a 29" knee board to alllow the planting bed to be raised inside) instead of the angled glass.  We also want to go with a concrete roof in front of the upper celestiatory windows so we can berm the back and sides as well as put 12" of soil on that roof for a living roof so that the back windows seem to jut up out of the ground.

We are building on a flat lot so we will have to bring in the dirt to bury it after construction and retaining walls are already in place.

We would like to use a greywater irrigation system and use composting toilets to avoid the cost of a septic system as well as a thermal collector in front of one of the retaining walls to help with the in floor heat and run an absorbtion chiller for summer.

I live in a VERY rural area and am already known as the town loon for raising miniature cattle instead of monster beef .  Most people around here just put up modular or mobile homes on their property, so I have no idea where to look to get started on a set of plans.  Is there a reputable online source for this?  Or do I need to swallow my wallet drive 4 hrs to the nearest city and hire an architect ?  Do I need actual plans to start pricing the cost of such a home?  Any input to get me started would be greatly appreciated.

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09 Jan 2010 01:45 PM
I may have missed it in your post but where are you located?
sleepydreamUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2010 01:59 PM
North central Missouri, officially 2 hours from everywhere.
want to buildUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2010 03:16 PM
Try this site:

http://www.freegreen.com/
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2010 03:58 PM
I suggest you spent $100 or so and get a cheapie CAD program like Punch or basic Chief Architect and start making your own plans.  There is a bit of a learning curve, but it will be worthwhile for you, if only to understand what architects go through. Look for, and file, images of what you like and do not like.

Then, prepare an "owner's brief" of what you want or don't want in a home, including a room by room finish schedule for walls, floors and ceiling, door heights, hardware quality/type, kitchen cabinet preferences, etc.   If you can define what you what, a contractor should be able to price it.  The fewer things you leave to the contractor's imagination, the better your pricing will be...and it will also make you think about what you really want.  The "value engineering" process can begin from there.  If you hire an Architect, the better he understands your expectations, the easier his and your life will be..and the beter the final product.

Everyone typically wants more than they can reasonably afford and every building  is a compromise .....from Burj Kalaifi (Dubai) on down.... your future home is no exception.

Bruce
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10 Jan 2010 09:05 AM
Bruce - I'm an electrical engineer and love playing with AutoCAD, but I'm certainly not an architect. I'm interested in the recommendation you made to sleepydream. So, are you saying that with a sketch of the room layouts (and all the other things you mentioned) that a contractor would be able to figure out details like roof trusts (which I know nothing about) etc. I always speculated that an architect would be a requirement. I would love to be able to do what you said and create my own design, leaving the structural details to a contractor. I'm speculating that paying an architect would be expensive. I plan to start building my retirement home in about 6 years, so I've got time to figure this stuff out.
Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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10 Jan 2010 09:56 AM
Posted By MSG79 on 01/10/2010 9:05 AM
Bruce - I'm an electrical engineer and love playing with AutoCAD, but I'm certainly not an architect. I'm interested in the recommendation you made to sleepydream. So, are you saying that with a sketch of the room layouts (and all the other things you mentioned) that a contractor would be able to figure out details like roof trusts (which I know nothing about) etc. I always speculated that an architect would be a requirement. I would love to be able to do what you said and create my own design, leaving the structural details to a contractor. I'm speculating that paying an architect would be expensive. I plan to start building my retirement home in about 6 years, so I've got time to figure this stuff out.
The context of my answer was related to getting budget pricing, but there are residential contractors who can take basic plans and complete the design.

My nephew works for a residential contractor and he said the plans I create (I think we have probably done 20 different designs so far....and still not happy) are better than a lot of them that they get to work from. 

Once we settle on a design, we will either hand it off to an architect or I may just hire a draftsman to complete the design and sort through the details with me.

A good architect can add value by thinking of things that you may not consider and preventing mistakes.  This is especially true if your build is complex.

Bruce

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10 Jan 2010 12:19 PM
Posted By MSG79 on 01/10/2010 9:05 AM
So, are you saying that with a sketch of the room layouts (and all the other things you mentioned) that a contractor would be able to figure out details like roof trusts (which I know nothing about) etc. I always speculated that an architect would be a requirement.


As a contractor I can tell you that if you were to provide me with a sketch I could take that into a cad program and supply dimensions. I then in turn hand that off to the engineered floor company who would design the floor for me and engineered headers including hanger specs. The truss company would design the trusses for me and the lumber company would complete a take off for me. So no you don't need an architect, just a good contractor.
MSG79User is Offline
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10 Jan 2010 12:30 PM
That's great news. I appreciate the input. I was looking at various plans on the Internet, but can never find just what I want. Now, I'm going to put something together myself and when the time comes I'll find the right contractor.
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10 Jan 2010 01:28 PM
Posted By sleepydream on 01/09/2010 1:09 PM

We have found a home design we wish to build.  We would like to start talking to people and see what it would cost to build in our area.  Problem is, the site I found the home design on does not sell plans.  I assume I need actual plans to start getting estimates, but where on earth do I start?

The starting point for the home we want to build is at www.thenaturalhome.com

We do want to make significant changes to that plan though.  We wish to build the back wall, side walls and roof out of ICF, interior walls with regular concrete, with a heated concrete slab floor (acid stained), put a curved eave sunroom across the front (with a 29" knee board to alllow the planting bed to be raised inside) instead of the angled glass.  We also want to go with a concrete roof in front of the upper celestiatory windows so we can berm the back and sides as well as put 12" of soil on that roof for a living roof so that the back windows seem to jut up out of the ground.

We are building on a flat lot so we will have to bring in the dirt to bury it after construction and retaining walls are already in place.

We would like to use a greywater irrigation system and use composting toilets to avoid the cost of a septic system as well as a thermal collector in front of one of the retaining walls to help with the in floor heat and run an absorbtion chiller for summer.

I live in a VERY rural area and am already known as the town loon for raising miniature cattle instead of monster beef .  Most people around here just put up modular or mobile homes on their property, so I have no idea where to look to get started on a set of plans.  Is there a reputable online source for this?  Or do I need to swallow my wallet drive 4 hrs to the nearest city and hire an architect ?  Do I need actual plans to start pricing the cost of such a home?  Any input to get me started would be greatly appreciated.



I'm sure you can find a draftsman or architect in your area. In addition to getting the plans done, someone with experience can tell you if they see anything that "looks good on paper" but will not be good in real life. I had a few of those instances already in working with our draftsman.
sleepydreamUser is Offline
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10 Jan 2010 02:55 PM
Thank you for the replies. I also speculate an architect would be expensive and I hate to spend money on an architect only to find out I can't afford to build the set of plans in my hands. I have several concerns about the proposed home as well. Summer humidity inside the structure for one. The functionality of the composting toilets and their effect on resale value. We intend to live in this home forever, but things happen and I don't want to build something impossible to sell if necessary.
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10 Jan 2010 03:09 PM
Most municipalities will need a proper set of plans to review for permitting. And things like composting toilets may not be allowed by your department of public works. But of course maybe you're in such a rural location that there are no codes, or very lax ones.
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11 Jan 2010 11:18 AM
Posted By sleepydream on 01/10/2010 2:55 PM
Thank you for the replies. I also speculate an architect would be expensive and I hate to spend money on an architect only to find out I can't afford to build the set of plans in my hands. I have several concerns about the proposed home as well. Summer humidity inside the structure for one. The functionality of the composting toilets and their effect on resale value. We intend to live in this home forever, but things happen and I don't want to build something impossible to sell if necessary.

if you know the basics (construction materials/methods, mechanicals, size, etc.) a builder should be able to give you a ballpark using the plan online.

I spoke with our builder before we had an actual plan to make sure we weren't going to be in for a surprise once we started.  He was able to give me his typical price per square foot, plus the rough costs of the upgrades we wanted.   It gave us the confidence to know we were in the right ballpark & could move forward.

If you decide to move forward, the price of a draftsman would probably be around the same as purchasing the plans online.  I'm really leaning on our guy to give me "reality checks" from our original ideas.  Like I said, some things look good on paper, but once you start living with them, you may find out otherwise.

Just to give you an example..  when we started, we made of list of what we wanted, and went online to find something that fit.  We found one that seemed to give us everything we wanted, and was very similar to the route we ended up going, with one exception - the kitchen and living room were reversed.  I didn't give it any thought until the builder looked at it & immediately said, "do you really want to come in from the garage & walk through your living room to get to the kitchen?"  We hadn't thought of it.

Remember that an architect/draftsman is bringing more to the table than just the ability to draw - through their experience, they have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't..

fyi...I posted this somewhere else, but for our house (approx 2000 sq ft ranch w/walkout basement) the cost of the plans, including designing the future finished basement is going to be around $750.
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12 Jan 2010 08:14 AM
Sleepy,

The folks on here who have answered your questions so fare a very knowledgeable people and know what they’re talking about.

I personally own Punch! Platinum Home Design program (about $70.00 at target, wal-mart, best buy) . Once you get to know the ins and outs of the program, it’s pretty easy to use. With the program, in addition to basic floor plans, you can also do HVAC plans, electrical plans, framing plans as well as exterior elevations. The one thing that I like best about the program is the ability to save your plans that you’ve worked on into a DXF/DWG format. These formats are what professional architects and draftsman use for their professional software. You are able to save your plans into a format that is compatible with their software; so you have hand them your jump (thumb) drive with the plans and they can simply tweak the plans as needed.

Contrary to what some may have said, I would always recommend having a draftsman draw up official plans for the home. Each sub contractor as well as inspectors will need a copy of the blueprints for different reasons. This is why you need a minimum of 8 sets of plans. As was suggested to me, use a draftsman to do the plans as they can do everything an architect can for a fraction of the price. Also, wait until you have chosen a contractor to build the home and find out who they use for drafting. They sometimes have access to draftsman who offer discounts for using a particular builder (repeat customers).

To answer your main question about where to look for a builder, I would search the internet for whatever it is you are looking for (custom home builder, production builder, system-built home builder, etc). Develop a list of companies and then send e-mails or start making phone calls. It sounds like you are thinking about going the system built (modular) home route. There are many companies out there that are doing this now and many cover regions rather than a particular state. Since I don’t know exactly where you are in Missouri, I would recommend that even if you find a builder who doesn’t specify on their website that they work in your area, contact them anyways and see what they say- the worst they can say is “no”.
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12 Jan 2010 11:21 AM
Posted By topace4 on 01/12/2010 8:14 AM
Sleepy,

As was suggested to me, use a draftsman to do the plans as they can do everything an architect can for a fraction of the price.


For me, that is an overly broad and untrue generalization.  I think all architects can be draftsmen, but not all draftsmen can be architects. 

From experience, I can also say that some of what gets drawn by "experts" does not work in the field, so whoever you get should be experienced in what he is doing.  One of my favorite construction cartoons shows (your choice) an architect, draftsman or engineer (you know...thick glasses, pocket protector, etc.) with a pained expression and his hands over his face saying "OMG....you built it just like I drew it."

The key in either case is knowledge and experience. 

One of the key elements is knowing and understanding clearances and spatial realtionships.  There are a variety of books to help the DIY'er.  I use the same 40 year old copies of Architectural Graphic Standards and Timesaver Standards that I used in college.  I am sure there are other books out there today.  You can probably pick up a used copy on line for a reasonable price.  You can learn a lot that way.

Bruce (who is not an architect)

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12 Jan 2010 12:40 PM
Posted By Bruce Frey on 01/12/2010 11:21 AM
Posted By topace4 on 01/12/2010 8:14 AM
Sleepy,

As was suggested to me, use a draftsman to do the plans as they can do everything an architect can for a fraction of the price.


For me, that is an overly broad and untrue generalization.  I think all architects can be draftsmen, but not all draftsmen can be architects. 

From experience, I can also say that some of what gets drawn by "experts" does not work in the field, so whoever you get should be experienced in what he is doing.  One of my favorite construction cartoons shows (your choice) an architect, draftsman or engineer (you know...thick glasses, pocket protector, etc.) with a pained expression and his hands over his face saying "OMG....you built it just like I drew it."

The key in either case is knowledge and experience. 

One of the key elements is knowing and understanding clearances and spatial realtionships.  There are a variety of books to help the DIY'er.  I use the same 40 year old copies of Architectural Graphic Standards and Timesaver Standards that I used in college.  I am sure there are other books out there today.  You can probably pick up a used copy on line for a reasonable price.  You can learn a lot that way.

Bruce (who is not an architect)


I think you make some valid points.  I have a couple thoughts - just my opinions... 

I'd venture to guess that most people that want to build a house find a plan they like & do the "we like this, but......" thing.  For the most part, I'd be really surprised if most people expect to have a plan drawn up from scratch.

Most people probably aren't building huge, extremely complicated homes.

In those cases, I think that a good draftsman may be a better choice.  A good one will either be affiliated with an architect or will you refer you to an architect if the plans require it.  I think that at the very least, it's a good starting point vs. going directly to an architect & paying significantly more. 

Your comment about being able to learn many of the key concepts is very true.  The question becomes how much time & effort do you want to put into it?  For me, I enjoy it.  I've had a lot of fun putting plans together, experimening (on paper) with different ideas, etc. 

Depending on your individual situation, though, this may not be the highest use of your time.  I spent a great deal of last year traveling for work, sitting alone in hotel rooms so I had plenty of time.  If I was at home, had kids, etc., I probably wouldn't have put nearly as much into it.

If you still need to work with a professional, how much are you gaining?  In our case, we are not charged per hour or per revision - it's a flat rate per square foot.  The work that I put in is probably speeding up the process, but isn't saving us any money.

Last point - how much is "peace of mind" worth?  I think that no matter how good I thought my plan was, if I wasn't able to get a professional opinion, advice, and suggestions, I'd be worried that it wouldn't come out the way I wanted.   Considering that building a house is pretty much a "one-shot deal", I wanted to feel confident that it will come out right.


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13 Jan 2010 12:24 PM
Bruce & Jerky - Good points. I too enjoy working with plans and trying things. My first approach had been to look for plans that were close to what I wanted, but could never find that "perfect" one for me. I'm one on a new one and will post it later for opinions.
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