Energy efficient roofing
Last Post 24 Mar 2010 10:07 AM by Dana1. 4 Replies.
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CgallawayUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2010 01:40 PM
It seems to me that one problem with energy efficient roofing is that it seems to be all made for only hot climates. That is, the products all seem to be reflective, to drive heat away from the home. Nice in the summer, but I don't live where it's always sunny and warm. I would hate to drive out all that sunlight in the winter. Has anyone tested using some sort of paint coating like this? http://www.paintwithpearl.com/chromics/blacktempchange/black_temperature_change_paint.htm

I'm curious if this would work for cooler climates, where in the winter, we do want "free" heat in our houses so the HVAC unit doesn't have to work so hard....just like in the summer we don't want to have the HVAC work so hard for cooling purposes. It seems like this product could be applied to paint for, say a metal roof?

Could you imagine this product painted on the sides of a house? Might really help reduce the need for additional heat/cooling.

Some thoughts?
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23 Mar 2010 06:26 PM
Posted By Cgallaway on 23 Mar 2010 01:40 PM
It seems to me that one problem with energy efficient roofing is that it seems to be all made for only hot climates. That is, the products all seem to be reflective, to drive heat away from the home. Nice in the summer, but I don't live where it's always sunny and warm. I would hate to drive out all that sunlight in the winter. Has anyone tested using some sort of paint coating like this? http://www.paintwithpearl.com/chromics/blacktempchange/black_temperature_change_paint.htm

I'm curious if this would work for cooler climates, where in the winter, we do want "free" heat in our houses so the HVAC unit doesn't have to work so hard....just like in the summer we don't want to have the HVAC work so hard for cooling purposes. It seems like this product could be applied to paint for, say a metal roof?

Could you imagine this product painted on the sides of a house? Might really help reduce the need for additional heat/cooling.

Some thoughts?

Playing games with solar absorption & infra-red emissivity works for limiting the solar gain of a roof, but does nothing in the "right" direction for heating dominated climates.  Peak heating loads happen at night when it's coldest. If it happens to be a very clear night, a lower emissivity of the roofing material results in a slightly lower heat load, but low-E materials also have low solar absorption, so you're limiting the heat gained during the sunny days at a net loss. Also, low-e materials only work when dry.  A skim coat of dew/frost/snow is HIGHLY emissive, ruining that already modest heat-saving effect.  If you design the roofing material for high solar gain you lower the heat load somewhat under sunny conditions, but those sunny hours are few, and the convection-cooling of the roof in the cold winter atmosphere is huge, and the net heat gain is fairly modest.  Here again, a snow load on the roof is highly solar-reflective, and the solar gains further foiled.

Compare that to summer time heat-rejection strategies of high solar reflectance, high-E:  Summertime solar intensity & duration is high, so lowering the cooling load by reflecting 80% of the heat then radiating the heat that was gained to the sky limits the temperature of the interior of the roof deck.  Under the roof deck the heat transfer to conditioned space can be further reduced with reflective low-e foils (radiant barrier)  In order to get anything out of a radiant-reflective type of insulation strategy requires two things:  A sufficient air gap between the radiating and radiated-upon elements to thermally isolate them, and a sufficiently high temperature difference that the radiating heat is the primary heat transfer mechanism.   When you have an attic floor at 100F under a 140F roof deck slipping in something IR reflective between them cuts the radiated portion of the heat transfer by 80-90%, which can be half the total. But in a wintertime situation with a 10F roof deck above a 15-20F attic floor (above the attic-floor insulation) the difference in temp is small.  If you regularly get -30F night-time temps (do you live in Antarctica?) a reflective layer might buy you something, but otherwise, not much.  The difference between winter/summer attics is that roofing can easily be 30-50F above the outdoor ambient, whereas in winter under high heat load conditions the roof deck is typically within 10F of the outdoor ambient, and there is not enough temperature difference for radiated heat to be a significant portion of the total heat-transfer. (Conductive and convective heat transfer dominates.)

High solar reflectance-high-emissivity exterior paints will modestly reduce cooling loads in much the same way as cool-roofs do, but the convection cooling on walls is much higher than on even steeply-pitched roofs.  Cool-roof materials have the greatest effect on low-angle (under 2:12 pitch) or flat roofs, where the induced convection of the heated surface is low. On walls it may be measurable in a lab, but probably not-so-much on your cooling bill.

As for the funky temperature sensitive paint, they don't specify it's solar absorption or infrared emissivity at any temp- not likely to be much different than any other paint.  White in the visible spectrum doesn't necessarily mean it's reflecting the bulk of solar radiation (much of which is in the near-infra-red), and if it's emissivity is low it'll retain heat.  Bright aluminum reflects over 90% of solar radiation, but get's VERY hot in bright sun since it doesn't efficiently radiate away the fraction that it didn't reflect. There have been other paints & additives marketed as insulation, but most of it is sheer hopeful thinking wrapped in techno-babble snow.  For heating dominated climates if it doesn't have an ASTM C518  rating for R value, it's usually worthless in independent real-world testing.  In cooling dominated climates it's a combination of solar reflectance AND infrared emissivity that can make it work (or not.)  Both are necessary, neither is sufficient on it's own.

The best energy efficient "roofing" for heating dominated climates is rigid foam board applied above the roof deck.  By placing the insulation above the roof deck the thermal short-circuit of the rafters are eliminated, and you get the full rated R of the material.  Several vendors (Hunter, Atlas etc.) sell it pre-lamnated to OSB nailer deck. Some have product with ventilated nailer deck as well.   This approach is a sure-fire way to eliminate ice-damming issues in most of the lower 48, and can be used in combination with attic-floor insulation if you balance the R-values to keep the average wintertime attic temp below the dew point of 30-35% relative humidity 68-70F conditioned space air. Soffit & ridge venting needs to be blocked when you go this route, or it'll be a thermal bypass of the roof-deck insulation.  But a 3-4" panel of iso is worth R20-R25, and will out-perform R22-R28 between the attic floor joists. In combination with a unventilated attic and a bit of attic floor insulation the total performance is excellent.

But don't count on paint or emissivity/solar-gain ratios to buy you anything at all in a heating dominated climate, and treat any claims of heat savings with such materials with great skepticism without independent 3rd party testing by multiple parties.
buck3647User is Offline
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23 Mar 2010 07:02 PM
Why not spray 2 inches of 2.5 lb closed cell foam under the deck or on top?
CgallawayUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2010 10:07 PM
Dana: As always, thank you. I am hopeful, yet skeptical....that is I want it to work, but I wouldn't test it with my own money. Maybe if I had a dog house outside.....that the wife would quit putting me into.....he he he. I am so far planning on SIPS for the roof in my design, as well as the sealed attic. I was thinking of something similar to this http://www.livescience.com/technology/091015-heat-tiles.html which isn't out on the market yet. I suppose it might be another decade before it is. Again, as of this point, I don't know where this house may be going (if at all) depends on where I get hired on at, so I don't really have a climate to go by when looking for roofing. Doing some research earlier, it's as if all the "green" roofing is for hot climates, and that there seems to be no "opposite" for cold climates. Or, since I currently live in IL, where we get all seasons (and staying is a possibility) that I wouldn't want to design for the 90+ degree days but not the 0- days.

I suppose the answer is to size my geothermal heating to where this roof wouldn't be an issue. My current home is a 1960's inefficient ranch house on a slab, and it works, so I guess I shouldn't be too worried about that extra bit of efficiency in the winter time with this theoretical house using SIPS roofing.

Buck, Good Idea. In case you haven't read any other queries I've had, I am just designing a new house at this point, not remodeling my current house. Hopefully one day I will get to build. Cheers!
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24 Mar 2010 10:07 AM
Posted By buck3647 on 23 Mar 2010 07:02 PM
Why not spray 2 inches of 2.5 lb closed cell foam under the deck or on top?

Under the roof deck you still have the very significant issue of thermal-bridging at the rafters (unless you also put 2" of foam over the rafters themselves.)  Then you have to deal with the safety & code issues of providing a thermal barrier for fire safety.

Above the roof deck you then have to build a nailer-deck, and do it in such a way as to not create thermal bridging.

Then, 2" of 2.5lb foam is still only R13, and being a class-II vapor retarder limits one to only about another R13 in fiber from below to not end up with winter condensation on the roof deck in most 6000HDD+ climates zones in the US.  A total R of 26 is pretty low performance.

Then there's the cost per unit-R.  Closed cell spray foam is not cheap stuff, and insulating roofing with panelized iso panels beats cc foam by a good margin from a $/R point of view when the labor to install nailer decks or thermal barriers over the spray foam is taken into consideration.

High density spray foam is a premium product at a premium price.  It adds a lot of structure to the roof deck (which may be worth it as retrofit in hurricane zones), it's vapor retardency is useful when applied to the correct side of the assembly for the climate zone, it's ability to conform & adhere to uneven surfaces and put a high-R in tight space also can't be beat.  But it's hard to rationalize the expense for large flat surfaces like roofs when it's primarily R-value you're going after when you compare it to panelized goods.
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