Steph42
New Member
Posts:16
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| 07 Jul 2010 05:04 PM |
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I know this topic has been discussed to death but I finally have some numbers and would like an opinion from people who know the brands well.
We decided on casements for our Ottawa Ontario home and are trying to figure out if we should get Bonneville (wood clad aluminium), Marvin Integrity Wood Ultrex (Fiberglass exterior) or the Andersen 400s (vinyl ext, wood int).
We like them all but have to consider the following:
- There are rumours that Bonneville isn't doing so well financially. That bothers us for service in the future.
- Marvin doesn't have a strong presence in my region, only a small sales rep that deals with the Toronto plant (4 hrs away). If he goes bankcrupt we would have to deal with the folks in Toronto directly.
- The Andersen rep is based out of a well established shop. I am not too fussy that you need to stain the wood yourself though.
-The Marvins and Andersen were priced the same at 25 000 $ for the whole house with taxes. The Bonneville came in cheaper, approx 22 000$ with taxes.
Any recommendations? |
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Kyle241
New Member
Posts:33
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| 08 Jul 2010 01:53 PM |
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That is a difficult call. I like the Marvin's in the list you have. I understand your concerns as I was where you were over a year ago and ended up deciding to go with custom windows from Fibertec, triple pane, all fiberglass and couldn't be happier. The only issue I had with them was when my contractor dropped one! That cost him some money and that window was delayed going in for about 4 weeks. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 08 Jul 2010 04:20 PM |
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Posted By Steph42 on 07 Jul 2010 05:04 PM
I know this topic has been discussed to death but I finally have some numbers and would like an opinion from people who know the brands well.
We decided on casements for our Ottawa Ontario home and are trying to figure out if we should get Bonneville (wood clad aluminium), Marvin Integrity Wood Ultrex (Fiberglass exterior) or the Andersen 400s (vinyl ext, wood int).
We like them all but have to consider the following:
- There are rumours that Bonneville isn't doing so well financially. That bothers us for service in the future. - Marvin doesn't have a strong presence in my region, only a small sales rep that deals with the Toronto plant (4 hrs away). If he goes bankcrupt we would have to deal with the folks in Toronto directly.
- The Andersen rep is based out of a well established shop. I am not too fussy that you need to stain the wood yourself though.
-The Marvins and Andersen were priced the same at 25 000 $ for the whole house with taxes. The Bonneville came in cheaper, approx 22 000$ with taxes.
Any recommendations?
I don't think you can make an informed decision based on what you provided. You gave details of the the frame materials/constuction, but nothing about about glazings. Early on we were looking at the Anderson 400's, but there were basically zero options for high solar heat gain & the u-values were not very good. I think you should start by figuring out what the glazing needs are, and then find a window that can provide that. Not every company gives you the same glass options. |
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Steph42
New Member
Posts:16
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| 08 Jul 2010 04:35 PM |
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Thanks for the feedback. Because of our location (middle of the forest surrounded by large trees), we are less concerned about the glazing and more concerned about R value. I tried and tried to see how I could incorporate passive solar design into our home but it would have meant cutting down a lot of trees and ruining our privacy (neighbour is to the south). We decided to invest in good insulation, a high efficiency fireplace and radiant heat instead. When solar panels become more efficient, we can put some on our roof. We are still struggling with the decision. Bad service Marvins, local bankrupt prone Bonneville or boring but safe andersens....  |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 08 Jul 2010 04:40 PM |
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Posted By Steph42 on 08 Jul 2010 04:35 PM
Thanks for the feedback.
Because of our location (middle of the forest surrounded by large trees), we are less concerned about the glazing and more concerned about R value. I tried and tried to see how I could incorporate passive solar design into our home but it would have meant cutting down a lot of trees and ruining our privacy (neighbour is to the south).
We decided to invest in good insulation, a high efficiency fireplace and radiant heat instead. When solar panels become more efficient, we can put some on our roof.
We are still struggling with the decision. Bad service Marvins, local bankrupt prone Bonneville or boring but safe andersens....
in my research, using some of the free computer models available online, etc., solar heat gain seemed to be a much bigger factor than u-value, so you may be right. I'd still shoot for the lowest u-value you can find, but if they're close it may not be the decision maker. I had to make a few concessions due to budget, but my first choice was fiberglass when we built. If all else is equal, I'd probably go with the marvin's.. |
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Steph42
New Member
Posts:16
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| 08 Jul 2010 05:03 PM |
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Another thing that was brought to our attention is that Marvin uses E366 glass and Andersen uses E4.
I'm trying to ignore the "easier to clean" aspect of it and found this:
Andersen 400 casements with E4 glass: has a whole-unit U-factor of 0.30 and an SHGC of 0.34 (source: http://www.remodeling.hw.net/green-products/windows-of-opportunity.aspx)
Marvin - I wasn't quoted for the E366 but for the low EII. Interestttttttinnnnnnnnng. See what I mean about shady service?
I will send them an email and report my findings.
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Steph42
New Member
Posts:16
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| 19 Jul 2010 12:47 PM |
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Hi all:
We are still confused as both reps seem to contradict themselves about which glass and window best fit for our climate.
We don't like the fact that you need to apply a wood protector to the Andersen yourself because it's not done in factory.
It's still a toss up between the Bonneville, Marvin and Andersen.
Any other opinions that applies to cold climates and shady areas (reminder: we are building on a wooded lot)?
Stephanie
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 20 Jul 2010 09:41 AM |
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Not to throw something else in, however have you checked out Eagle windows? They are an Andersen company, with the same E4 glass, however with better hardware and an upgraded design from the 400s. The 400s have rumored to switch and start using the new hardware items and sashes. (mind you, the redesign is mainly for the double hungs, but casements have some changes as well). They are available in more colors, service is typically pretty good (not sure on your area), and the windows are great. I have had experience with Andersen 400 and Eagle, in the same house infact. Both been installed for about 12 years now in my parent's house. We are currently working on an addition to that house and just (this last weekend) installed 8 new Eagle windows. I personally have Pella in my house. No real beef so far with them, but having installed them and the Eagles, the Eagle window is a far superior design. Plus the Eagle might be a little bit cheaper than the 400, but not sure on that. They only have 1 series.
If it were me on those options, you do have the peace of mind with the Andersens. However the fiberglass is great for areas prone to high expansion such as my climate (140 degree heat changes possible). If you can not look at Eagle, then the Marvins or Andersens will both hold up and provide high r values. I would imagine its a wash between the 2. I would maybe focus more on the overall look and function of them at this point. Which do you cosmetically prefer? |
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 20 Jul 2010 09:46 AM |
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Posted By Steph42 on 19 Jul 2010 12:47 PM
Hi all:
We are still confused as both reps seem to contradict themselves about which glass and window best fit for our climate.
We don't like the fact that you need to apply a wood protector to the Andersen yourself because it's not done in factory.
It's still a toss up between the Bonneville, Marvin and Andersen.
Any other opinions that applies to cold climates and shady areas (reminder: we are building on a wooded lot)?
Stephanie
What do you mean "wood protector"....as in finish them with stain/poly? Talk to your rep. I might be mistaken, but they should have a prefinished option too. You obviously pay for it though. However if they do not, staining windows is not that hard to do, and you save some $. Also when you say wooded, do you been evergreen or deciduous? |
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Steph42
New Member
Posts:16
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| 20 Jul 2010 10:03 AM |
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Thanks for your replies. The dealer that carries the Andersen line also has the Eagles and when I asked about them he suggested sticking to the Andersens. He didn't' really elaborate on why except that he thought the 400 were the biggest bang for your buck.
The rep told us the 400s didn't come pre-finished unless you wanted them white. I know it's easy to do by yourself but since this is a new construction, it means staining a heck of a lot of windows.
The forest is a mix of evergreen and deciduous trees so we get shade in winter and summer.
The issue we are having is that we'd like to be a bit different than the typical white windows but the Andersen terratone colour is a bit blah because it looks like a faded commercial brown. The Marvins have a beautiful bronze colour but I have a fear the fiberglass may fade over time. Maybe we should just stick to an off white..haha...geez. This window decision is killing me.
As far as the hardware, we like our options either way. The stone colour from Andersen would be ok with us and for the Marvins, we would probably upgrade to oil rubbed bronze.
What are your thoughts on dark vs white windows? Is there more chance of warping and fading for the dark colours? Would you guys go dark just because it adds that custom look compared to the typical builder grade white windows?
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 20 Jul 2010 02:28 PM |
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Your Andersen dealer sounds really shady. They probably get a bigger kick back from selling Andersen or something....
If you are after color choices, once again, Eagles will have far more color choices (40 I believe) all in the standard price. They also have prefinished stained options and different woods to choose from (not just pine like the Andersens).
I would not worry about the fiberglass fading at all. And to answer your question, dark bronze colored windows always look best....plus white just always looks dirty!
Most projects I do using aluminum storefront systems I specify dark bronze, although I did a school with champagne. It looks great. |
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cone
New Member
Posts:12
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| 20 Jul 2010 02:40 PM |
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In cold climates does the fiberglass hold up as well as the aluminum clad wood? |
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 20 Jul 2010 03:26 PM |
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It should actually be better due to its more stable expansion characteristics, or I should say lack there of. Not to mention it has a much lower thermal absorption rate. |
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andy351
New Member
Posts:6
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| 24 Aug 2010 09:57 PM |
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I looked at a lot of window options when I built my SIP home 4 years ago and went with the Marvins because of the fiberglass frames and so far they have been the best windows I have been around, they never change in the cold or hot like vinyl does, the wood on the inside cant touch any water from the outside so they will last forever. The thing to think about is the frames are pulltruded fiberglass just like the long fiberglass handles they sell for changing your light bulbs made by the Mr Longarm company ( I work on these molds for a living and the window frames are very square and very strong) As far as how long will they last how many Corvettes (also made out of fiberglass put not as strong as pulltruided fiberglass) fall apart unless they were in a wreck. I think in years to come you will see more fiberglass frames coming on the market... just my thoughts-good luck
PS I live in Missouri but ordered my windows from a place in Iowa because I didnt like my dealer either. good windows! |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 25 Aug 2010 09:51 AM |
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For the last few years Marvin has an all fiberglass Integrity window called Ultrex. That is, both sides of the sash is made of fiberglass. Of course, they still have the Intergrity window with wood inside. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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rbrais
New Member
Posts:5
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| 19 Oct 2010 10:11 AM |
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I have the all Ultrex windows and I am not impressed. They are flimsy compared to the wood interior windows and you can feel the cold come through the fiberglass. Condensation develops along the bottom of the glass and the fiberglass on the bottom of the upper and lower sash. When the windows are warming up in the morning from the sun you can hear the fiberglass knock as they expand, which is a little annoying.
I spent a lot of money on these windows because they are supposed to be maintenance free and energy efficient. I put R-21 in the walls and R-49 in the roof, only to find that the windows are my weak spot. |
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reswindows
New Member
Posts:1
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| 20 Sep 2011 10:21 AM |
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I made a comparison chart.
http://www.suntechwindowsct.com/blog/marvin-andersen-pella-window-comparison/
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sesmith
New Member
Posts:62
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| 21 Sep 2011 10:59 PM |
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Hi,
Here's a link to a program from Lawrence Berkeley National Labs that will help take the guesswork out of your various glazing choices. I think it will also allow you to compare older, single glazed windows vs. newer ones and estimate savings in heating and cooling.
http://windows.lbl.gov/software/resfen/resfen.html
I don't know about the other brands you mentioned, but I can vouch for the Marvins. I've replaced all the windows in my house with Marvins as I've remodeled over the last 25 years. All the Marvins I've used have had excellent workmanship. However, the earliest ones (all were wood) were prone to rot, especially the storm window frames and the lower part of the wood brick mold. I did the last window on the house (a large picture window flanked with casements) just last year, and used an Integrity by Marvin. The fiberglass exterior is an excellent solution to the rot problems,, doesn't expand and contract as much as vinyl, and is paintable. Same Marvin quality. I chose low EII glazing for this window based on the above program, as it's on the south side of my house and was a better choice for that location (I'm in the northeast). For any other side of the house, I would have chosen the E366 glazing. FWIW, Anderson and some other brands also had some rot problems on the earlier windows as well...wood isn't what it used to be. I've read where aluminum clad wood windows had rot problems as well...you just didn't see it until it was too late. Looking back on it, workmanship quality, and resistance to rot would be more important to me than any slight differences in glazing or air leakage specs on new windows. I wish the Integrity's were around 25 years ago when I started. |
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rbisys1
Basic Member
Posts:142
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| 23 Sep 2011 01:07 PM |
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Greetings,
Speaking of windows, I'd like to talk about my present fiasco with Hurd windows.
Hurd use to be about the best you could buy considering price vs quality. One of the big features was the 1 1/4" thick frames. They were heavier, but they were sq and I never had a quality problem.
Well, that has all changed. Right now I'm waiting on a sash replacement because the finish VENEER they use is cr-p.
Seems some of the veneer is so plastic like that it will not take a proper stain. Another section of veneer on the same sash is so porous that it sucks up the stain and you can't do any thing with it. This veneer is very soft too and is easily dented and scratched.
If you're looking for a real pc of junk to install in your house, go Hurd.
The assembly and wood pices to trim, ect are below quality too. |
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