Insulating Block Walls
Last Post 02 Aug 2010 05:26 PM by Dana1. 10 Replies.
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AltonUser is Offline
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28 Jul 2010 03:08 PM

Dana1,

I attended the Southeast Builders Conference in Orlando and while in the area my wife and I looked at several new homes.  I was somewhat surprised about the way concrete block walls were insulated.  I found only two methods of insulating block walls:

1.  The local builders used a thin membrane that they claimed had an R-4 value.
2.  Or the better builders spent more money and used 1" of Thermax (aluminum foil on both sides of urethane with claimed R-value of 7) inside the home up against the concrete block wall without an air space.

I think the insulation would work better in Central's Florida's climate if it had been placed on the exterior of the concrete block walls.  The only reason that I could find for placing the insulation on the inside of the home was that they could apply real stucco directly to the block walls.  This method eliminated the need for diamond mesh and black paper under the stucco.  Furring strips were installed inside the home to hold the Thermax in place and to support drywall and to provide a chase for wiring.

What are your thoughts about these methods of insulating block walls.  Would the limited amount of insulation work better if placed outside of the massive block walls?  Will the Thermax on the heated side of the wall trap moisture?

In the late 1970's some of my designs of conventional construction used 2" of Thermax on the exterior of 2x6 stud walls.  That is the way we were told to install it then.  Why would the location be different for block walls?

I would appreciate your opinion.





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Dana1User is Offline
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30 Jul 2010 03:57 PM
I'd be curious as to what "thin membrane" works out to be R4.   It would take about 3/8" of aerogel  (not cheap) to achieve R4.

With foil facers you'd still get a bit more heat-rejection against the hot CMU, but yep, a bit of an air gap would improve that considerably. But the benefits taper off rapidly after 3/4-1" of air.

And putting it on the exterior of the CMU would indeed be more effective overall, since the thermal mass of the wall would be on the interior of the insulation.

BTW: Thermax is polyisocyanurate, not polyurethane. The difference is significant, since un-faced iso is both very vapor permeable, and somewhat hygroscopic- it'll take on water.  Polyurethane is hygrophobic, and semi-impermeable to water vapor as well.

I'm dubious that a stucco-on-CMU wall with foil faced iso on the interior without at least some gap & venting/weep-holes will make it more than 15 years before holes corrode through the exterior facer. The moisture drives from the exterior will be intense at times, and without a vented gap to purge at least some of that moisture it'll have periodic condensation on the facer which is bound to destroy it over time.  Once it's holey enough, moisture will saturate the iso, and the inner facer will start to go, then the condensation & mold potential on the inside of the wallboard will be pretty high.
The builder would likely have retired, changed his name, and moved to another country by the time the REAL fun begins though, eh?   His stackup would work better with XPS than with iso, but with even a half-inch cavity between the CMU & iso, and  modest amounts of cavity-venting foil faced iso might make it until his grandchildren inherit the biz.

Prescriptions for foil-faced iso are somewhat different with wooden studwalls than with block.  Masonry can handle quite a bit of moisture cycling without deterioration, whereas wood studs cannot.  In FL if you placed a highly vapor-retardent foil facer on the interior of the wooden studs they run at much higher humidity levels than if inside the air-conditioned thermal envelope, with a higher risk of rot & mold.  But if the stud bays remained empty with no cavity fill or exterior R it could still work with foil faced iso on the interior- it's just a lot less risky to put all of the wood within the thermal & pressure boundary of the structure where it's temp & humidity stays within a safe range.

R6 is a pretty low R value, even for the modest heating loads of FL (or is that the code-minimum in central FL?)  For the AC loads the roofing & glazing are likely to be more important than the clear-wall R, but even there R6 seems a bit thin.  Your 2" back in the '70s was probably good to at least R11, aged value, and if you filled the stud bays with batts or blown fiber you'd be in GREAT shape for the climate.
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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30 Jul 2010 04:51 PM
Alton;

if you were seeing thermax, you were seeing the "energy efficient" version of Florida masonry construction. for years builders simply used  "Al-Foil" a perforated foil faced paper that boasted an "R-4" with the 3/4" airspace, you need to add the drywall, stucco and 8" block to stretch the values and reach the minimum legal R value.

I have seen single glazed windows in high end $800K homes with "tinted " glass upgrades, it is a joke.

Some builders are improving with "conditioned space" in roof/duct areas, but by in large the builders here do a pitiful job in energy efficiency
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
AltonUser is Offline
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30 Jul 2010 09:34 PM

Dana1 and Chris,

Thanks for the comments.  I certainly did not like what I saw at numerous subdivisions.  The homes were nice looking but I was really concerned about energy conservation and longevity of the structure.  By the way, in the central Florida area between Orlando and Ocala I found only three subdivisions out of many that would allow a homeowner to specify how the structure should be built regarding materials, practices and energy conservation.  There is no way I could recommend them to my clients.

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31 Jul 2010 06:21 AM

Alton;

most builders offer inferior insulated buildings, they do promote granite tops, beautilful cabinets and those items that appeal to the woman of the household.

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
AltonUser is Offline
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31 Jul 2010 07:05 AM

Chris,

You got that right.

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wesUser is Offline
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31 Jul 2010 08:32 AM
Chris and Alton,
Florida doesn't have a corner on that type of building/marketing. Its everywhere!!
Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
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31 Jul 2010 08:40 AM
I agree. And without standardized testing, it's hard for homeowners to quantify the value of good insulation, especially on a new house. An ACH50 would be easy to get, thermal testing is more difficult. Simulations might get close.

We need more cases where a home sale is lost due to poor energy performance.



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31 Jul 2010 09:41 AM
Our FL home is typical- NO insulation in the walls, R-19 in the attic, and cheap single pane windows. We almost never run heat, but I would think it has to run up the A/C cost.
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31 Jul 2010 09:58 AM
Posted By jdebree on 31 Jul 2010 09:41 AM
Our FL home is typical- NO insulation in the walls, R-19 in the attic, and cheap single pane windows. We almost never run heat, but I would think it has to run up the A/C cost.
not easy to do much with the walls, but easy to add attic insulation and change out  windows to a good insulated vinyl would probably drop your bill 30%

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
Dana1User is Offline
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02 Aug 2010 05:26 PM
Posted By jonr on 31 Jul 2010 08:40 AM
I agree. And without standardized testing, it's hard for homeowners to quantify the value of good insulation, especially on a new house. An ACH50 would be easy to get, thermal testing is more difficult. Simulations might get close.

We need more cases where a home sale is lost due to poor energy performance.




Under California Title 24 2008 there are minimum energy performance standards that need to be met any time a building is sold, existing stock OR new construction, although the standards are more stringent for newer construction.  The standards aren't static either- it ratchets up over time on existing stock- stuff MUST be upgraded over time for the building to sell legally.  There's only so much you can fake to squeak by.

Shoddy design/practices in construction isn't new, nor is it isolated to FL, but most places I've lived & worked it would be hard to get away with just adding a couple tons to the central AC, forget about insulation & air-sealing and putting the difference into nicer kitchens & bathrooms. 

But it's the latter that make the larger difference in market value, which is why the efficiency stuff doesn't change much until codes (and local inspectors) demand it.  CA has taken it on at the state level, but many municipalities across the US have too.
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