Most cost effective DIY High R Value Walls and Roof sytems??
Last Post 15 Jul 2011 06:24 PM by ICFBdr. 10 Replies.
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DENALIUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2011 07:38 PM
We will be building our own home (for the most part) beginning this time next year. I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject and frankly i am having an issue with information overload. I am looking for a no nonsense system to get the highest r value per dollar spent regardless of how green its make up is. If i have to give up some of the green components i am fine with that as the end result would still be green in my book because of the green result of having a high r value system.
   Anyhow i am looking for guidance on the matter. Thanks for your time.
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15 Jul 2011 09:54 AM
highest r value per dollar spent for a superinsulated wall (R50+) = double 2x4 filled with cellulose. if you search my previous posts you'll find some comparative cost analyses betweed different type of walls. you'll probably find "my trip" thru ICF, SIPS, exterior foams.....till I finally settled for double wall

good luck
adi
http://torontonetzerohouse.blogspot.com/
lzerarcUser is Offline
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15 Jul 2011 10:21 AM
A spin off on double wall can also be 2x8 sills with staggered 2x4 framing @ 24" oc (puts a stud every 12").  Not quite as high r as a double stud can be, but it usually can be built faster since you are still framing up a single wall.  You do however have some thermal bridging at your sills and heads.
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15 Jul 2011 10:39 AM
Greetings,  you can build an even more efficient wall( and ceiling) by using 2x4 studs with type three radiant barrier (RB) (fifoil.com) between studs, type two RB over inside surface of studs, steel 1/2" dry wall furring strips Across the studs, drywall.

Even on hottest days the Btu figures at about  2btu/hr/sf/

Plus you have better humidity levels in the hous since RB do not cause condensation.

Cellulose holds much more moisture than other types of insulation.  In fact the effects of moisture can increase heat transfer  to a point where it is less effective than FG.


HERE IS AN ARTICLE i WROTE SOME TIME AGO ABOUT INSULATION PERFORMANCE.


<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 George Himmeger 224  SOUTH St     TROY, IL  62294     CELL 618 698 8393     HM 618  667 4222         e-m [email protected]

 

Information and opinions by George Himmeger : The chart data enclosed is taken from a mechanical engineering handbook along with

opinions from thirty years field experience

 

EXPLORING THE LEGITIMACY OF CLAIMS OF CHARACTERISTICS, TEST PROCEDURES AND “R” RATINGS FOR THERMAL                                           INSULATIONS USING MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HAND BOOK DATA AND FORMULA

 

 Fiber glass FG - Radiant Barriers RB

 

Confusion about the performance of various insulation materials is not a recent phenomenon.  Some of the confusion comes from the fact that various materials control heat energy transfer according to the specific physical properties of the materials and their assembly for use.  Another problem is that large manufacturers, with government sanction, literally control the methods used to test their product and competing products.   This has been an ongoing fight for over fifty years in this country.  Some products, commonly used here, are not allowed in other countries because of low performance and serious health issues.  The most common testing problems are:

 

(1)       The tests do not reflect actual “installed summer / winter conditions”, which can reveal up to fifty percent difference in performance compared to “accepted tests”.

(2)       Most tests favor conductivity resistance and limit the effects of radiant energy.  Most homes have about 12-15% conductive surfaces, about 7% is convection and air spaces accounting for up to 80% radiant energy gain or loss.

(3)       Some tests do not reveal the serious performance degradation from condensation,   actually storing and increasing heat flow, and how it affects the interior humidity levels. 

(4)      Some tests do not reveal possible mold and other problems.

(5)     Some tests, or labeling, do not reveal the health problems due to toxic chemicals.  This information is classified as proprietary information and given only to the government.

(6)       The tests or labels do not reveal the ratio of material to air volume This ratio can be as low as 1% mass to 99% air volume allowing radiant energy to travel through like an open door, plus air infiltration.  The exception to this is radiant barriers which rely on the air space to perform efficiently.  If insulation tests were performed with the best interest of the consumer at heart, there would probably be only two insulations available to the consumer. 

(7)       The other subject ignored by the bulk insulation manufacturers is the approximate 80% heat gain/loss in buildings through radiant heat, infrared energy. This can be expected because most bulk insulations are only about 10 – 20% efficient in rejecting radiant energy, compared to about 97% for radiant barriers. 

(8)       The  “R” factor for bulk insulations are based on the reciprocal of a “u” factor, a conductive test ( for a material that is about 99% air spaces?).  The efficiency of RBS are based on a “k” factor.   You cannot obtain a “R” value from a  “k” factor.

The independent, non competitive, method presented here is based on long established data of energy exchange between two surfaces, ceiling/floor, at a given Delta T” (temperature difference between two surfaces) and will tell you what amount of heat energy is radiated into and out of the home summer and winter.  This method depends on no tests and incorporates the characteristics of the insulation, building materials and the effects of any climate condition.  It can be performed by anyone with a thermometer.  Conventional “R” factor calculations cannot tell you this, due to the problems mentioned above and that the calculations are usually for material only.  With “R” factors you can calculate for one set of condidtions and then find out the calculations had no reference to what is actually going on in the structure.

 

The common denominator for all insulations is; what is the temperature of the drywall and the floor it is radiating to?  This “in situ” method incorporates all the variables because the drywall temperature determines your heating / cooling costs.  You can use either Btu calculations or temperature calculations.  You can see why the manufacturer of low efficiency insulation will not want to use this method.  The drywall emission rate, about 90%+, is used in the following chart because that is the most commonly used material.  The source of this information, and the following chart, is from an emissivity chart and formula of a mechanical engineering handbook.  You may not be familiar with this source of information.  It is a manual of materials charts, characteristics, formulas and numerous other factors used by engineers to manufacture most every thing you use.  For many professional engineers it is the engineer’s “bible”.

 

THE HUMAN FACTOR  The average person believes that the air temperature is the dominant factor in comfort.  This might be true if it wasn’t for the energy radiating into and out of the building with its effects.  It is this energy ratio between the interior surfaces and the surface of the body that ultimately determines the comfort factor and energy consumption.

For maximum energy savings you want the lowest rate of absorption and re-radiation of energy.  Lower is better.  The determining factors of any insulation’s performance are:

1          The rate of absorption and re-emittance ( radiating ) of energy.  From the “bible” we see that wood (cellulose), and glass (fiberglass) is about 90%+ efficient in absorbing and re radiating energy.  Base foam materials are about 20% efficient.   Aluminum foil about .03%.

2          Other than the basic material and its construction features, moisture, either from humidity or condensations can cause substantial energy flow.  Using the ratio or 5% increase per 1% of moisture by weight, data published by the National Bureau of Standards shows that fiberglass and cellulose can increase energy flow about 45 / 72% due to moisture in an uninhabited structure. Even the relative humidity can account for a dramatic increase in energy flow.  Increased humidity levels in an inhabited structure can cause even more energy lose / gain along with the 1,000+ btu used to convert vapor to liquid. Since radiant barriers do not cause condensation and are superior vapor barriers, the interior humidity levels can be lower than with other insulations.

3          The low quality of installation can also be a detriment to the effectiveness of insulation.

The following chart shows Btu transfer for various ceiling temperatures.  Calculations for infiltration, doors and windows are separate as they will be the same for any insulation installed.  To increase the envelope efficiency even more, Insulation Specialists has developed a simple method of installing RB to reduce to about 1% the conductivity surfaces of studs and ceiling joists from the normal 12-15 %  surface area.  In summer you can measure the drywall temperature which can reach up to 110 degs on a 95 deg day with the lower efficiency insulations and no roof shading.   If the floor temperature is 75 degs the ceiling, using temperature figures, will radiate about 99 degs/sf/hr.  The 110 deg ceiling temperature is about 25 degrees hotter than a winter radiant heat system, causing the air conditioner to run continuously to try to compensate.  Without the air conditioner the interior temperature could exceed 100 degs.  If the RB is 110 degs it will radiate about 2-3 degs /sf/hr.  In a properly designed ranch home the interior temperature, with RB, will be about 80-81 degs without air-conditioning.  The humidity levels can also be lower as the RB does not cause condensation which can be forced into the home by the high temperatures in the structure as with some of the lower efficiency materials.    Question; if the indoor temperature can be hotter inside than outside without the air-conditioned, how can the manufacturer claim their material is insulation?

As you use the chart keep in mind these two questions;

1          If bulk insulations are about 99% airspaces and radiant energy travels through space at about the speed of light, and the base material absorbs and re-radiates the energy at about an 80-90 percent efficiency, how can a manufacturer claim their material is an insulator?  More importantly how can an “R” value be assigned to them ?

2          If the function of a RB is to reflect energy, how can an “R” factor be assigned to it?  How can the government and the manufacturers of bulk insulations legitimately force the use of “R” factors in evaluating radiant barriers?  More importantly, why?

3          Why has the US Senate interfered with, at least twice, the governments fair trade polices, including FTC regulations, when it comes to insulations?  Regulations which would have provided for a fair playing field.   Answer:  Over $100,000,000,000.00 tax revenue per year due to the excessive use of energy.

          Because of this and other reasons the American home owners is using up to two to three times the amount of energy to heat a cool a home than what should be used.

In summer you can determine the temperature of your ceiling drywall by taping a thermometer to the drywall surface.

This chart is based on a 75 deg floor temperature. The chart can be validated by using the emissivity data and formula from Mark’s Mechanical Engineering Handbook.  FG values are for insulation between joists and include joist heat transfer.  The RB value is for the joists surfaces covered with the RB and a furring strip to separate the RB from the drywall.   “A” is the dry wall temperature.   “B” represents the Btu’s radiated for the FG installation.  “C” represents the Btu’s radiated for the RB installation.     “D” the Btu difference between the FG and RB.

Although the mechanics for side walls will be slightly difference this method can be used foe approximate comparisons.

 

                                   Summer                                                                                   Winter

                “A”           “B”           “C”           “D”                           “A”           “B”          “C”          “D”                                                                                                          150           88             5              83                             75                0              0               0         

                140           75             4              71                             70               5              .3              5

                130           61             3              58                             60               14              1            13

                120           49             3              48                             50                22             1              21

                110           37             2              35                             40                31              2             29

                100           26             1              25                             30                38              2             36

                   90          15             1              14                             20                45               3            42

                   80            5             .3              5                            10                 52              3            49

                   75            0            0               0                              0                58              3             55

 

The 110 deg is high lighted to represent a 95 deg day.  The 30 line is highlighted to show the similarities of the summer winter conditions.  Note the jump when the temperature gets down to zero degs.  Because of the rapid drop off in FG efficiency as the material thickness is increased it is difficult to extrapolate the RB and FG data for “R” value comparison.  Compared to the advertised “R” value for FG  the RB “R” factor could exceed  “R”100  value by a considerable amount, and it is impossible to have a  “R” value of 100 much less 100 plus.

 

Myth:  Dust adversely affects the RB performance.  A:  Dust has little or no effect on a horizontally installed RB with airspace both sides.  The top surface could be painted black and the bottom surface might emit 1 or 2 extra Btus.  Most ceiling installations have one or more layers, so any increase in heat flow is doubtful.  There is little or no dust on vertical installations. Even with dust present the RB is superior to other materials.  These comments never reveal the test material type or test method or actual performance differences.

Myth:  Holes adversely affect the RB performance.  A:  Some RBs are manufactured with vapor escape holes.  I know of no laboratory tests showing an increase in heat flow, particularly in multi layer installations.  Obviously you don’t want large holes, these should be repaired.

Myth:  RBs are not as efficient on up heat (winter) as summer.  A:  The engineering handbook does not make such a distinction.  The mechanics of up heat vs down conductive heat flow are different; therefore any given material may exhibit slight differences for winter.  However these comments never note that the RB is still superior to other materials.

Myth:  Aluminum corrodes.  A:  Pure aluminum, such as the 99.9% pure foil used in RB, does not corrode under normal atmospheric conditions.   

A light, invisible, oxidation does occur preventing any further oxidation. You would not want to breathe the fumes that could cause severe corrosion.  Corrosion can and does occur in some unfinished alloy aluminum because of the dissimilar metals used for alloying the metal.

Myth:  RB loses its insulation values over time.  A:  Since RBs do not corrode, the answer is self evident.  I know of installations over 30 years old that work just fine.

Myth:  You can’t use RB in very cold climates:   A  When Perry and other scientists went to the poles they use aluminum foil to insulate the structures. The Navy SEALS used multi-layer foil (mfg’d to mil spec  HH I 1252) in 1964 in the Artic buildings where the mineral wool was failing.  RB are used quite extensively and exclusively, in severely cold conditions, such as, cryogenics and space platforms.

Myth:  RB are not very efficient in attic add-on application.  If the application is not proper then this is a true statement.  However, the retrofit tests so far conducted are not the most effect application method.  I have found that a double layer installation directly over the existing material can reduce a/c run time 50% or more.  Why test the most inefficient method?

 

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15 Jul 2011 02:45 PM
Where are you building? There is no BEST way to build - it depends on climate.
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15 Jul 2011 02:48 PM
Posted By ICFBdr on 15 Jul 2011 02:45 PM
Where are you building? There is no BEST way to build - it depends on climate.


I am in western Kansas. Gets real hot here in summer and very cold in winter.
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15 Jul 2011 02:53 PM
Not really familiar with the weather in your area, but if you are looking at temp swings thoughout the day (ie, hot days and cool nights) be sure to plan some type of heat sink into your home. This will absorb heat during the day and passively keep your home warm at night when it cools down. Good examples are a stone fireplace (set in a spot that receives daylight, so it can gain solar heat), tile floors, or the concrete in an ICF structure (had to add that one in).
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15 Jul 2011 03:58 PM
"Most cost effective DIY High R Value Walls and Roof sytems??"

That would have to be a double 2x4 stud wall filled with cellulose insulation for the walls. I would shoot for 9" - 12" overall wall width. Wrap the whole thing with 7/16" OSB for strength and caulk/paint/tape seams for air sealing.

For the roof you would be looking at energy heel type roof trusses and then 12"+ of blown cellulose for insulation.
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15 Jul 2011 04:00 PM
I don't know what R value you are looking to achieve, but I would take a good look at a 2x6 stud wall with 2" of rigid foam. Plus no footings or basement (or a fully exposed basement if you prefer to call it that) by using a frost protected shallow slab.
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15 Jul 2011 06:17 PM
What's most cost-effective will vary with the desired whole-assembly R-values (all thermal bridging accounted for.) Without knowing the performance goal it's sort of like like asking...

"What's the most cost effective truck out there?"

...and the if you need to move 100 tons of rock out of a quarry the answer will be very different than if you need something to haul the household trash to the dump.

Western Kansas is in US climate zone 5. If you want to use the Building Science Corp recommendations for what's cost-effective at some presumed energy cost and current heating/cooling technologies (and you may choose something quite different if you're looking to meet PassiveHouse or Net-Zero-Energy types of standards), see table 0.2, p10 of this document:

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-1005-building-america-high-r-value-high-performance-residential-buildings-all-climate-zones

For zone 5 they're recommending R30 walls, R65 attic, R15 basement wall, R7.5 center-slab (slab on grade or full basement), and R10 for the stem-walls/slab edge if slab on grade.

Note these are "whole assembly" R, so a 2x6 wall with R20 insulation is going to come in at R14 due to the thermal bridging of the studs. Double studwalls and a bunch of blown insulation would get you there, but double-studwalls don't thermally break the band joist or foundation sill framing at all, and getting that up to snuff would be a design issue, and it won't be necessarily be cheap. Depending on lumber & labor costs it might still be cheaper to go might be go with the foam-overcoat approach. If virgin-stock EPS rigid board runs ~ 10cents/R/square foot, and to get then necessary R16 to make up for the missing R would be 4" of EPS outside the sheathing, for ~ $1.60/ft^2. But it's often possible to get reclaimed EPS or polyisocyanurate from commercial building re-roofing/demolition for about 3 cents/R/foot. R18-R19 roofing iso is only 3" thick, making the assembly somewhat easier than R16 EPS @ 4" thick, and it'll outperform it too. (InsulationDepot.com will ship reclaimed, if its a substantial quantity. There may be local sources too- try craigslist searches, or call around to commercial roofing contractors.)

20" of open blown cellulose in a vented attic is a cheap. Be sure to design the trussed for the static weight load and full depth out to over the exterior wall. Don't try to support the load with wallboard either- use OSB on the bottom side of the truss-chords (or joists), and detail the OSB as a primary air-barrier. If a cathedralized ceiling approach is used, R24 of iso/EPS above the roof deck & rafters as a thermal break and dense-packed cellulose in 2x12 rafters can get you there.

R16 is the minimum insulating concrete form (ICF), and if your time is worth anything to you , that's a reasonble way to hit R15 on the foundation. (Aligning the plane of the exterior ICF foam with that of the sheathing foam preserves a nice thermal break.) It's cheaper to go with 1" of rigid XPS on the interior of the concrete with a 2x4 studwall & R11 batts, but getting a good thermal break at the foundation sill and band joist becomes an issue.

Under slabs it's usually cheaper to go with rigid EPS rather than XPS. Either is good, just don't use iso, which can take on water quickly if there are any drainage issues. (EPS is best if it's swampy, but that doesn't describe most of western KS, eh?)


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15 Jul 2011 06:24 PM
R16 as a min ICF seems like the extremely low average - most forms are in the 20-22 range
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