It's crunch time on our build in SC. I've gotten quotes, and am tempted by ICF all the way to the roof. This will be a small, single story house, and SC is a mild climate. Cooling will be more of an issue than heating, I think. I'm pretty much decided on ICF for the basement. The cost difference is just not great enough to try to save a little money there. I had planned to go 2X6 walls with 1" external foam over Zip sheathing. Siding will be fiber cement. I plan on raised heel trusses, with blown in insulation in the attic. Heating and cooling will be ductless mini-splits. I'm doing much of the work myself, although my contractor, experienced in ICF will do the actual pouring. I can stack my own ICF if I want, and it is a significant savings. I'll also pay to have a framing crew hang the roof trusses and sheath the roof, but I'll do everything else.

There's no way that ICF can compete with framing on cost; I know that. A framed wall can compete or even exceed ICF's performance as well. I do believe the ICF will be faster than one old guy framing an entire house, not to mention the time spent caulking and sealing the envelope afterwards. I also like the strength, durability, and quiet of ICF. When in my contractor's ICF house, I'm always struck by how quiet it is; you literally can't hear anything outside unless the windows are open. We're way out in the country, which means no traffic noise, but it does mean barking dogs, crowing roosters, chainsaws, and lots of people shooting.

The house will have large overhangs, as it is meant to be a traditional Craftsman design. I'm putting 2" rigid foam under the basement slab, as well as radiant heat tubing in the slab for future use. Windows will likely be Marvin Integrity, and there aren't any huge glass walls. The window count is about 15-17. The house is 1300 sq ft, over a walk-out basement the same size. It is for a retired couple (us, someday) and I'm more worried about creeping (or galloping) energy costs as we age on a fixed income. We're building the house out-of-pocket, with no mortgage. While I'm young enough, I'll probably augment the heat with a wood-burning stove when I can. We have an andless supply of hardwood on our property.

Any thought on just how sensible or insane it is to build such a house in a mild climate? We're building; that's not the issue. The money I save DIY will go to making a better house. I want as good a house as I can afford, but I don't want to go crazy, either. Any thoughts to aid my decision?

One word: termites. One more: tornadoes. Oh yeah, one more: fire. My scip house goals go past energy efficiency, although that is huge. Comfort and security are also important goals.

Posted By jdebree on 26 Feb 2012 02:58 PM
It's crunch time on our build in SC. I've gotten quotes, and am tempted by ICF all the way to the roof.

Any thought on just how sensible or insane it is to build such a house in a mild climate? We're building; that's not the issue. The money I save DIY will go to making a better house. I want as good a house as I can afford, but I don't want to go crazy, either. Any thoughts to aid my decision?

What city is this home? Go to HomeFacts to find out the risk potential for natural disasters and other info.

ICF cannot be "justified" merely based on costs. Yes, a wood home can be built to have the same energy insulating qualities as an ICF, which is R-23. The wood home would require to be detailed to stop the air infiltration, you would also have to address the thermal bridging, spray foam would be the best solution.

In the end, ICF is more about:
* Strength
* Rodent and insect resistance
* Wind, hurricane and tornado resistance
* Termite/Rot resistant
* Longevity
* Peace of mind
* Sound proof

What were the bids for the ICF? How much MORE was it over the wood frame?

Any thoughts to aid my decision?

Sure, here's a thought. All the things that you and Lbear mention are pretty much why I did it in a "mild" climate. But here is one thing that no one tells you.

It's fun and cool.

When you get old and infirm, the only thing you are left with is talking about the fun and cool things you did "back in the day". Lots of people have built a house, but how many have built with ICF?

Fun and cool. ;-)

The house will be outside Greenville SC, which nets a C+ for tornadoes. I was surprised it was worse than where we are in FL. In watching the weather for the last 5 years, and from talking to locals, it seems that most of the tornadoes are east and south of us. I think being tucked up close to the base of the mountains offers a little protection. That being said, shortly after we bought the property, a huge, healthy red oak blew down in a storm.

After living in FL for the past 30 years, I'm tired of worrying about hurricanes. It would be nice to have a house you felt could hold up to most types of weather. We're building on a basement, which offers even more protection in really bad weather. That is definitely one of the reasons for considering ICF. The protection from rot, insects, rodents and fire are all big pluses, too. This will hopefully be our last house; a place to grow old in. That's why I'm thinking of going with the best construction I know of. If money weren't a factor (when is money not a factor?) it would be a no-brainer.

I haven't gotten a quote on framing yet. If frame, I'd probably do much of the work myself. If I stack my own ICF and have the contractor pour it, the cost will probably be pretty comparable to paying a framer to build the walls. I'm no teenager, and I'd have to do a lot of rigging to raise 2X6 walls single-handed. It can be done, and I've done it, but I think the ICF would be less physically demanding.

I think ICFHybrid has the best reason so far- It's fun and cool!

With big overhangs and a vented attic the uplift forces on the roof deck under high winds can be considerable. Even if the thermal boundary is the blown goods at the energy-heel, making the roof deck and soffits the pressure boundary makes some sense.

In SC the rationale for vented attics is missing- winters are relatively shallow & brief, and in an air-conditioned building allowing outdoor air in above air-permeable insulation leads to higher moisture content in the ceiling gypsum during the cooling season. The cooling effect of attic ventilation is relatively limited, and can be made lower with "cool roof" shingles and, a roof pitch of 4:12 or higher.

In any new construction it's useful to think about site factors and orientation for optimal passive gain during the heating season, and heat rejection during the cooling season. Also, orienting the roof deck for optimal annualized photovoltaic output, and even pre-wiring for PV can make sense- even if the finances don't work for you at current pricing/subsidy, at some point in the next couple of decades it is likely to become compelling. (Where net-metered at retail and subisized it's already compelling in many locations.) The fact that you're heating & cooling with mini-splits means you can put a fairly substantial array up there without "risk" of surplus beyond the annual usage, which is discouraged by many utilities. Covering the entire south pitch of the roof with PV, the panels behave something like a ventilated over-roof/shade, further reducing peak cooling loads.

I'll keep that in mind, Dana. By 'big' overhangs, I'm talking 24". The roof will be either 5:12 or 6:12. I see no compelling reason to vent the attic.

The orientation options are limited, despite having 7 acres. The view is to the north, and the front of the house faces roughly south. I could do the entire front roof in solar. The house is not visible from the street, so I'm not worried about upsetting anyone's aesthetic sensibilities. The garage is on the west side, which will help shield the house from afternoon sun. The land is all large hardwoods, so little sun comes in early or late in the day. The front porch is 10' deep, which likewise keeps the hot sun out, but of course also keeps warming sun out in the winter. We'll have a wood burning stove, and have all of the free firewood I'm willing to process. I'll do as much of that as I can until age catches up with me.

I ran some quick numbers, and, assuming I do all of the labor other than pouring, the ICF comes out about $7500 more than stick framing.

Posted By jdebree on 27 Feb 2012 07:27 PM
I ran some quick numbers, and, assuming I do all of the labor other than pouring, the ICF comes out about $7500 more than stick framing.

That's small change when you look at the costs of building a home. People spend more than $8k on granite countertops. If you can do the entire home in ICF for $8K more than wood frame, it would be a no brainer for me, ICF all the way.

Have you considered a concrete roof?  See http://www.envirolaststructures.com/   This company is located in Columbia, SC but will travel a seven state area.  This company can build the insulated shell to include the below and above grade walls, floors and roof with SCIPs.  I looked at their current project under construction in FL and liked what I saw.

I'll second Alton's concrete roof concept, and even raise it one:

Get budgetary quotes for doing the walls with ~R16-R20 SCIP rather than ICF. It's less concrete overall than most ICF buildings but by putting half the thermal mass of the concrete fully inside thermal boundary rather than isolated by 2" of EPS the energy use and comfort benefits mass effect is greater. With SCIP walls tied into an R40-R50 SCIP roof as a structural monocoque the hurricane-resistance is about as good as it gets. Having a mass-roof is also extremely beneficial during the cooling season.

For people considering using SCIPs, keep in mind that the cost is in the labor and concrete mix and not so much in the EPS.  In other words, consider increasing the thickness of the EPS.

Posted By Dana1 on 28 Feb 2012 10:44 AM
I'll second Alton's concrete roof concept, and even raise it one:

Get budgetary quotes for doing the walls with ~R16-R20 SCIP rather than ICF. It's less concrete overall than most ICF buildings but by putting half the thermal mass of the concrete fully inside thermal boundary rather than isolated by 2" of EPS the energy use and comfort benefits mass effect is greater. With SCIP walls tied into an R40-R50 SCIP roof as a structural monocoque the hurricane-resistance is about as good as it gets. Having a mass-roof is also extremely beneficial during the cooling season.

Going from ICF to SCIP is a night & day difference in construction and finishing details. The OP stated that he is a DIY'er and he plans on doing a lot of interior and exterior finishing work himself. While SCIP is a great technology, it cannot be used based on what the homeowner is planning to do. If the homeowner is planning to do drywall, wood roof trusses, siding exterior, DIY, etc, SCIP cannot apply to his build.

The home is a "Craftsman design", which will not always translate well into a SCIP build, especially the exterior & interior finishes. Plus his home is 1,300 square feet, for a SCIP company to come out and do a SCIP for that small of a layout, they will destroy him in labor costs. As it doesn't make them any money to get a whole crew out there for such a small build. They will significantly increase their costs to cover the small build.

He got quoted $8K more for ICF vs. wood frame. The homeowner can still finish the interior and exterior himself, with drywall and siding. With SCIP I guarantee you that it will be more than $8K in costs vs. wood frame and the homeowner will not be able to finish the interior and exterior with drywall and siding in a Craftsman style. The OP will stack his own ICF walls, he CANNOT assemble his own SCIP walls.

I just don't think SCIP is applicable to what the OP wants to do.

Lbear,

You are correct that there is a lot of difference in construction and finishing details when going from ICF to SCIP.  But both can be done by a DIY if that person can read a manual and get inspections from the manufacturer.  Been there and done that with both ICF and SCIPs.  However, I think it is best if both ICF and SCIP projects have at least one skilled person on the job.  Even stick framing requires some skill if the site is within an area subject to the code.

Although some comments posted to this type of forum do not always apply to the original poster, I would think that the comments can be helpful to other readers.

My contractor builds exclusively with ICF, and I've developed a good relationship with him. That, and he lives less than a mile away! With me living 600 miles away when I'm not on-site, I can't begin to express the importance of having someone you trust working for you. I also think it's rare to find a contractor flexible enough to let you do whatever portion of the build you want to, then step in to handle the stuff you can't. When I built my barn, I had a medical problem, and his framing crew came in and had it up and sheathed in a few days. It put me over budget, but you can't always plan for life's emergencies.

For that reason, I'm pretty well set on either ICF or stick framing. I'm experienced in stick; he's experienced in ICF. I don't know anything about SCIP. I've already bought fiber cement siding (for 25 cents on the dollar) and will be using it on the exterior. I really want a metal roof- can I do that over concrete?

I agree with Alton- even if SCIP is not for me personally, lots of people read these threads in their research. I've been reading them for years!

I dunno, I've seen many authentic stucco-sided craftsman bungalows that one could do a reasonable imitation of using SCIP walls + SCIP roof with stuccoed exterior & hard plaster interior. (They're not all wide-plank clapboard &/or shingles, eh?)

Hard plaster interiors are pretty OK with the craftsman look too- the key to making it stylistically-relevant would be how one did the crown moldings, window & door casings, etc. Drywall can look pretty crummy in a craftsman IMHO, but blueboard + plaster can look right, or a textured plaster to imitate the horsehair plaster look if appropriate. I live in a circa 1923 craftsman bungalow (in a neighborhood with several diverse examples of craftsman homes, including 2 with stucco siding). About 15 years ago we added on ~350 square feet which involved merging hipped-roof lines, etc. We managed to stay true to both exterior & interior styles despite opening up the floor plan a bit. The room that looks the worst is where wallboard was installed in a room modified by the prior owner. It's not terrible, but I notice it. If I ever re-do that room I'll demo it and use blueboard & textured plaster more in keeping with the rest of the place, but it is low priority. (They did a sloppy job of rehanging the crown moldings in that room too, but that bugged me enough that I fixed that part of it. ;-) )

Posted By Alton on 28 Feb 2012 04:34 PM
Lbear,

You are correct that there is a lot of difference in construction and finishing details when going from ICF to SCIP.  But both can be done by a DIY if that person can read a manual and get inspections from the manufacturer.  Been there and done that with both ICF and SCIPs.  However, I think it is best if both ICF and SCIP projects have at least one skilled person on the job.  Even stick framing requires some skill if the site is within an area subject to the code.

Although some comments posted to this type of forum do not always apply to the original poster, I would think that the comments can be helpful to other readers.

I agree. It was nothing against SCIP or anyone, just from reading what the OP stated, I knew going from wood vs. ICF to possibly SCIP would be a quantum shift for him. Even for me going from wood to ICF complicates everything plan & building wise. As the plans have to be completely redrafted, the wall thickness has to be changed, engineering has to be brought in, the County has to be satisfied with their needs, etc.

As a DIY guy, I am not that brave to tackle either ICF or SCIP. I know from my experience that you can grab 10 DIY guys and ask them to mix an 80LB bag of concrete. 6 out of 10 of them will either add too much water or not enough.

I contemplated SCIP for my build but I ran into a brick wall as the SCIP contractors would not even return my calls. Eventually one did but threw out a cost to build that blew a hole in my wallet.

Any SCIP contractors out there? I am still open for a REASONABLE bid!

I just finished the shell of my ICF house. I went with Integraspec and I couldn't be more excited about it. Was it hard, yes but my structure is 3 stories to the roof. Putting the blocks together as easy but did require allot of ladder work. You build the first course, fill it with rebar. Then the second and the rebar. Once you get to the 5th course, you're on a ladder up until your eve line. For me that went to 14 courses of blocks for the 1st floor. That was the only draw back that I could see. Finishing the window and door openings were quit time consuming but in the end, I've got a bullet proof concrete structure. The acrylic stucco seemed easy but that took a crew of guys. I'd do it over again just because it's fun and the peace of mind is there too. I'd think with what you know now, you'd kick yourself later if you didn't go with an icf or similar type concrete house. Don't forget about the geoexchange system either!

Thanks for the perspective, Roundeye. There are a lot of factors in it for me personally. I'm 58 years old, in fairly good shape, but I ain't as good now as I used to be. Stacking foam blocks seems a lot easier than trying to engineer a way to tilt up my framed walls single-handedly. After recent tornadoes, I think a concrete house would offer a level of security that not much else could match. I'm not saying it would stand up to one of the big boys, but my area of SC has few tornadoes, and they are usually F0 or F1. One gadget I have is a motorized scaffold I got from a friend. It uses a re-chargeable cordless drill to power the scaffold around on smooth surfaces. Could be real handy when stacking block alone.

In the area where I want to build, the codes state:

Wind Speed = 90MPH, Exposure A, B & C
Seismic Design Category = C
Termite = Moderate to Heavy
Weathering = Moderate

Foundations = 9.5 inch think flat ICF foundation walls

Minimum Insulation R-Values:
A. Ceilings: R-30
B. Walls: R-13
C. Floors: R-19
D. Mass Walls: R-5

All-in-all a home can be built with wood but WHY would you want to build with wood in an area that has "moderate to heavy" termite probability, an area that see's "moderate" weathering and wind speeds of 90MPH? Add a seismic zone C to the mix, and wood makes NO sense.

Insulation value wise, yes, a wood home would easily meet the R-13 walls and R-30 ceiling but for durability & strength, wood does not make sense.

ICF will cost more and might not produce the same R-Values that some super-insulated wood homes can produce but ICF's strength is in it's concrete. Wood is food for termites and fuel for the campfire.

Sounds like you're in a similar area to me, only our termite probability is 'Extreme'. ICF is not a guarantee against termites, though. They can and do tunnel considerable distances through the foam, and the scary part is that you can't see them. That's actually one of the things I DON'T like about ICF or SIP's. I know they talk about treated foam and all that, but it still worries me. Whatever I build with, there will be termite shields at the top of the foundation, and the house will still have to be inspected for mud tubes trying to get around the shields.

The other factor is of course cost, especially for a DIY'er. The materials for ICF are about 300% of the cost for 2X6 walls with 1" exterior foam, Zip sheathing, and blown in cellulose. Don't get me wrong; I think ICF is currently the best technology available, but money is a huge issue for us.