Jonr,

Your statement is only correct applied to poorly insulated and small mass situations. If the mass is only enough to average one day’s temperatures swing of energy your statement applies. When the mass and insulation levels allow for a time constant that exceeds months the world changes as to the appropriate application of mass.

This is similar to the passive house standard. If the insulation level is two to three times code the total energy per day becomes so low that you can eliminate the primary heating system saving say 8 to 10 thousand which can pay for the insulation upgrade. There is more to it but simply put that is the case.

Passive house standards due not adequately consider the thermal mass in the calculations. Thermal mass has the same relationship to the structure. Once the design is passive the amount of insulation can be reduced and replaced by mass. This relationship is dependent of the local climate in the same way the insulation levels are in the passive house system. This chart shows the relationship in a specific climate. This location shows an R-100 no mass is equal to 3 feet of earth and R-10 and that at 20 feet of earth no insulation is needed. The second line on the chart shows the relative cost of the materials involved in the walls as you transition. This leads to a sweet spot for cost which can be adjusted based on the projects needs.



This principle has been demonstrated in many example homes, built in extremely cold, moderate, mild and warm climates. It has also been demonstrated in dry and humid climates. It works everywhere that is reasonable to inhabit.

Brian

zeh.....can you post pics of these houses while they were being built?

Can you draw me such a graph for Detroit, MI and Miami, FL?

Jonr,

I could, but it takes a couple of hours of engineering calculations and research of the climatic data for the site to prepare the chart. It is one of the out puts from the thermodynamic modeling of the site that I do when designing a self-heated and cooled building. The tip of Florida requires passive cooling and an inverse thermal syphon in the design.

Brian

Judging net results of heat loads and gains at the end of 2 or 3 winters:

Having many observations by the temperature of the ground loops--- since 1983
 in winter's coldest two weeks
(yes some running around, not on net, but expidited w/ Palm data acquisition and saved 1000's of points .-)

~ heating dominant area, coldest in NE Ohio: Burton/Chardon, of Geauga -North and North Ashtabula County to Warren
and politely regardless of engineer's more so ACCURATE
quicker assessments
sizing by cooling and +30% max
(smaller homes usually not so much an issue below 1800 living sq ft) on single speed GT "on-off" controls over 300 times-

load J with these high mass walls has been UNDERSIZING loop requirements for such as very thick log homes (sealed again 2-years later,
to underground homes that were not much more than 5-bay car wash layouts with GT
Joe Barber's of Chesterland, Ohio- (books and arch't schemes)

Mass or not ICF proven more efficient, was vulnerable to contractor's ideas of how better/tight the rest was built...for the buck.

IC ,
and Ze, thanks.

DthePractical thanks too

i HAVE TO ASK: and having GT in ICF, as well as GAS IBCboilers.com / radiat and air coils

ICF now at what ROI$
vs. since 1993 SO MANY ALL CELLULOSE
and now 20" IS loose fill common here (D) for even up to 24" peaks withspecs...
with baffles and vented attics, etc.and NO TYVAK barrier
and stuffed in vaulted areas (however Horrifying or not)
and window calculated from thermal readouts to still be at nearly 40 BtuH /sqft in fanciest of homes, -10 dark clear nights/windy
+ basement walls with 5/8th foil interior under studs +only dead airspace to finish drywall as we hereblog---
at what $
do we tell the 3600 to 7500 sq ft buyer (wanting C+ "green")
when just a 3-Compressor-Ton (Ct) to only a 6 Ct (size 7.0-rated's) , respectively,
all electric total bills near 16 cents
are also respectively just highs of 140 to the larger under 400
and their regular lowest electric bills are 85 to 185...
with A/C on 100% Heat-Reclaim HW "instant" inclusive by GT
has summer highs at 120-320,respectively?

What is the 12 year analysis ??

how sold?
here the Amish rule a huge % stick frame for ROI's (IE 5000 sq ft 2-story(x~2500) FINISHED-framing UNDER 40,ooo !
in $800k-to-3 million dollar home building areas

I understand "Green" goals of things
like ASHRAE recent meetings for targets in say schools is still about double the reality of great GeoT/EHRV/ERV net zero schools since 2010 (that's not average GT here, but proven by Hydro-Temp Corp schools-, mentioned as often as I see Mitsu-Splits)

WHAT $ROI's are tabled with controllers and any A/E's interviewing...?

I CAN SELL the SELLZABULZ !

as a GC/HVAC Lic contractor Marketeer, researcher-tech.

The decision has been made; I've got about 500 ICF blocks stacked on site. We should have a footing by next week, and then the fun begins! I'm going 8" for the basement; 6" for the main floor. The roof will be raised heel trusses, but I'm having them bump up the wind requirement- it adds almost nothing to the cost. I'll probably shoot for R50-60 in the attic. Thanks for the input- it's been a good discussion. I'll start another thread detailing my experiences working with ICF.

Congratulations Jay. Looking forward to hearing how things go. Travis came out and looked at our property and pointed out a few problems. So we are having to change our garage siting. Good luck!!