kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 07 Jan 2013 09:50 PM |
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I have a 850 sq ft home just North of Kenora Ontario
(P9N0E7), it’s pretty well insulated compared to most in the area with 2x6
walls and tri-pane glass. There are is a ridiculously large lakeside (east)
window (72” X 120” two fixed to casement panels) and a not so great sliding
door (double pane glass and leaks air) to the deck (also east side).
It is currently heated with an oil fired forced air furnace
(Lennox lowboy at 80000 btu (80% efficient I’m told so really 62000 btu
delivered to the house at best). The furnace is oversized resulting in frequent
short cycles in the coldest weather further undermining its efficiency.
There is no central air, just a room a/c (mounted in the
wall under that huge east facing window)...I believe its rated at 8000 btu and
with all the doors open to circulate air can cool the place and dehumidify it
on the hottest days (95 f or so at worst with 80% humidity).
The thought of filling the oil tank (1100 liters at
$1.20/liter) sends shivers up my spine, not to mention the damn furnace breaks
down regularly costing me an average of $400/yr to service/clean/massage etc).
So... I have read and read and read some more till I have
come to the conclusion that my next heating system will be the Mitsubishi Mr
Slim that will heat and cool the house. I plan on mounting the head in the
family room (the one with the sliding door to the deck).
What I would like to do is install an electric furnace (which
I already have (used one)) in place of the oil burner and then replace the
blower motor in the electric furnace with a variable speed DC unit to both
circulate the warm air during the heating months and cool air during the summer
and serve as backup /supplemental heat either when the Mr Slim can’t produce sufficient
btu (below -25c) or if the Mr Slim goes off line.
What I need to know is... given that the current oil furnace
is too big, how do I know which Mr Slim model (if any) can handle the heat
load?
Thanks.
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 07 Jan 2013 09:56 PM |
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On a very cold day (ideally "design temp", ~ -35C), what percent of the time is the furnace running? If it's 50%, then you need about 31K btu/hr. There are other methods, but they aren't likely to be as accurate. |
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acwizard
 Basic Member
 Posts:265
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| 07 Jan 2013 10:32 PM |
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The first thing to do is calculate the heat load based on the building construction.This will give you a real number of btus needed.The Mr Slim will not be able to heat your home at -25C. You would need supplemental electric heat. |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 08 Jan 2013 09:38 AM |
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What is the capacity of your electric furnace? Below about 0F, it will have to carry most of the load in your plan. How many weeks a year is it consistently below 0F at your place? Without having better details on your structure and insulation, the safe estimate is between 30K BTU and 40K BTU of heating capacity needed on that place. That means a Mr. Slim of about 36K BTU capacity, but during peak cold periods you will be almost entirely on the electric furnace. If it's a 10 kW, then it might be a little skinny. Your best plan is to put oil in the oil tank and keep it for those peak lows, but hard to say how running it less like that will affect your yearly maintenance costs.
If there are improvements that could be made in the structure, insulation, air sealing, doors and windows, then you might be able to move the heating needs below 30K BTU which would help settle the issue more.
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 08 Jan 2013 07:15 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Jan 2013 09:38 AM
What is the capacity of your electric furnace?
20KW
Below about 0F, it will have to carry most of the load in your plan. How many weeks a year is it consistently below 0F at your place?
Not sure but I would think at least 8 (I'm in Kenora Ontario Canada postal code is P9N0E7)
Without having better details on your structure and insulation, the safe estimate is between 30K BTU and 40K BTU of heating capacity needed on that place. That means a Mr. Slim of about 36K BTU capacity, but during peak cold periods you will be almost entirely on the electric furnace. If it's a 10 kW, then it might be a little skinny. Your best plan is to put oil in the oil tank and keep it for those peak lows, but hard to say how running it less like that will affect your yearly maintenance costs.
I'm OUT OF THE OIL altogether I hate it and its stupid expensive
If there are improvements that could be made in the structure, insulation, air sealing, doors and windows, then you might be able to move the heating needs below 30K BTU which would help settle the issue more.
Yes, I will be blowing in insulation to R60 in 1/2 the roof (only half is available (its R30 now) the east side has a sloped ceiling with R30ish), I will be replacing that crappy sliding door and every winter the big window especially but all others as well get the plastic shrink wrap on the inside; thats the best I can do for now...One day I would like to strip off the vinyl siding and add 2" of foam to the exterior before I re-side it.
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 08 Jan 2013 07:30 PM |
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If you don't want to use oil at all, you should consider geothermal. More expensive up front, but it isn't bothered by -35C. |
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 08 Jan 2013 07:51 PM |
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I priced Geothermal at nearly $30000, there is no way I can spend that |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 08 Jan 2013 07:54 PM |
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I would have guessed just over 1/2 of that. But I know nothing about prices in your area. ASHP + electric might be your best bet. |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 08 Jan 2013 08:07 PM |
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You might not like the oil and the maintenance expense, but 8 weeks of running straight electric will be expensive, too. 10kW X 24 hrs X 56 days = 13,500 kWh. Looks like you are paying 9 or 10 cents there in Kenora, so that runs you about $1200. What was oil costing you for those two cold months?
Can't believe you don't have gas service there. Doesn't the Trans-Canada run right by you?
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woodgeek68
 New Member
 Posts:67
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| 09 Jan 2013 05:42 AM |
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In a similar situation (oil heat and no central AC), I put it an ASHP, and had a two-stage thermostat (a VisionPro) wired in to call the oil as a second stage for the first season or two. Do the HP this year, take a BIG bite out of the oil usage, do the electric furnace later. Sometimes we make a project so big, it is hard to get started. In my (Philly) climate a conventional split (central) HP system made sense.....and the electric furnace is standard equipment. To go that route....you might look at the 'Greenspeed' systems that are approaching mini-split eff numbers. As for sizing, I did that by timing my oil system a few times at a few outside temps and fitting a line. The question is whether you want one big HP, or two smaller ones with higher total output (but also getting zoned heating). Sizing is critical for comfort and payback, but hard without data. |
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Dana1
 Senior Member
 Posts:6991
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| 09 Jan 2013 12:21 PM |
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The Mitsubishi "Hyper Heating" series mini-splits will put out ~15000BTU/ton of nominal cooling rating at -15C in heating mode, falling to about 11,000BTU/ton at -25C. Below that you're on your own. I'm not sure at what temp the thing stops completely, but your efficiency at -35C is likely to be lower than resistance heating ( if it's running at all when it's that cold.) The average mid-winter temperature in Kenora is about -16C: http://weatherspark.com/#!dashboard;a=Canada/ON/Kenora ... a temperature at which you'd be getting reasonable capacity, at a coefficient of performance between 1.5 and 2.0, if sized for the -25C heat load. They make some pretty big H2i Hyper-Heating units in the "P-series", so even if your heat load is 30K @ -25C it's possible to size for that: http://www.mehvac.com/UploadedFiles/Resource/H2i_brochure.pdf IIRC the single-head mini-split units stop at 2.5 tons nominal cooling, but are still good for~24,000BTU/hr @ -25C.
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 09 Jan 2013 08:25 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Jan 2013 08:07 PM
You might not like the oil and the maintenance expense, but 8 weeks of running straight electric will be expensive, too. 10kW X 24 hrs X 56 days = 13,500 kWh. Looks like you are paying 9 or 10 cents there in Kenora, so that runs you about $1200. What was oil costing you for those two cold months?
Can't believe you don't have gas service there. Doesn't the Trans-Canada run right by you?
Right now I use about 600-800 liters for the whole winter; the real killer is the maintenance on that damn furnace, seems to be about $500 every second year and that's after the yearly $250 service :( Natural gas is 2 km away and is never gonna get to me according to the gas co (not enough customers out my way to make it worthwhile) I considered keeping the oil burner but can't figure out how I would circulate the warmed air from the Mr Slim (its gonna dump air into the family room; east side of the house) without replacing the oil burner with the elec furnace and installing a variable speed DC motor to circulate the air so it goes into the heated crawlspace and the rest of the house. I suppose I could have the heating company change the motor in the oil burner to a DC variable speed but wonder if it would be wasted $$$ considering I would have to do the same in a year or two when I change the oil for elec back-up. |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 10 Jan 2013 08:33 AM |
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Don't know what the definition of "whole winter" is, but based on that heating oil usage you appear better off than estimates would indicate. That's about half the heat we were calculating earlier. 800 L X 36.6 X 0.80 / 3.4 = 7,000 kWh of electricity, which is less than you were paying for oil, not to mention the added maintenance. And, since that assumes all resistance heat, the lower heat requirements mean that the heat pump could do more of the work. You should do the Mitsubishi unit that Dana1 pointed out and let your electric furnace carry the peak loads. You could just let the furnace fan do the job of circulating. It must have a fan only mode. Good-bye oil. |
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 10 Jan 2013 08:52 AM |
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The furnace gets turned on 1st of oct and off again 30 april. We set the thermostat at 50 f when we are not there and 70 when we are there. Its a cottage but will be our home shortly (we spend about 10 days there a month throughout the winter). I agree the oil usage isn't too bad but I think it is because its fairly well sealed and insulated (not to mention small I am now looking for a Mr Slim. Anyone have a good online source? |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 10 Jan 2013 12:48 PM |
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Ah, that explains it. No good contractors there in Kenora? |
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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| 10 Jan 2013 02:41 PM |
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deleted by Kenora |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 10 Jan 2013 04:33 PM |
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So, all you have to show the vampires is a "Toban" passport, huh? ;-) |
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kenora
 Basic Member
 Posts:145
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