Posted By Lbear on 27 Jun 2013 05:26 PM

Posted By JimGagnepain on 26 Jun 2013 04:50 PM

The used tires are pretty much gassed-out.  There is little to no odors from the bales.  My friend doesn't even have his bales covered yet, and the house is all enclosed and insulated.  There are no odors in his place.  Our tire bales are covered with about 2" of shotcrete, and then adobe over that.  No fumes at all.  Concrete and adobe are non-flammable.  I would imagine that even if the rest of the house was to burn, that the tire bale/concrete structure would still be standing.

I personally think that it's a great use for tires, in an ecological sense.

The reason I ask is that tires contain a lot of VOCs and other deadly carcinogenic toxins. Some of which are; benzene, cyclohexene, toluene, siloxanes octamethyl-cyclotetrasiloxane, decamethyl-cyclopentasiloxane, methyl pentanone, etc The list goes on and on.

A friend of mine who is a fire fighter says that a tire fire is brutal because the smoke contains really bad carcinogenic toxins and the tires smolder for a long time.

Not all toxins produce odors that can be smelled by humans. I'm just wondering if the tires can leach the toxins and carcinogens that can permeate shotcrete and adobe since they are both not waterproof or did you waterproof/vapor proof the wall assembly?

We put some sealer over some of the adobe, but not all.  Toxins are not a concern at all.  This website discusses the outgassing (Question #8), or lack thereof.  Question 7 addresses potential fire issues, or lack thereof.

www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirehouseFAQ.htm

Posted By JimGagnepain on 27 Jun 2013 06:08 PM

We put some sealer over some of the adobe, but not all.  Toxins are not a concern at all.  This website discusses the outgassing (Question #8), or lack thereof.  Question 7 addresses potential fire issues, or lack thereof.

www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirehouseFAQ.htm

Thanks for the link. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Sometimes posts come across that way.

According to that site, "It's true that a pile of tires, once on fire, is almost impossible to extinguish." That part is very true, as that fireman personally told me. It goes on to say, "However, both in the case of rammed-earth tire walls and tire bale walls, there is insufficient oxygen (0% for rammed-earth tire walls and 5% for tire bale walls) contained within them to maintain an ongoing fire and can easily be extinguished." With that being said, the problem is that there is always oxygen (they claim 5%) within such a wall assembly and when a fire does get going inside those tire bales it will burn for a very long time. It's not impossible, especially since wiring snakes through the tire bale area. A fire within the tire bales would make the home uninhabitable and condemned.

Getting a home built with the tire bale method will almost prove impossible in 95% of building communities. One would have to build it in the middle of nowhere with very lax building codes. I'm not knocking the house, please don't get me wrong, it's a great idea but just being realistic in its applications to the general building population.

As far as gassing, the site stated, "Any gas produced by used tires in this application will have to go through at a minimum; a moisture barrier of 6 mil construction plastic film and at least 1" of stucco (cement) or adobe plaster, with nothing forcing it to do so (static pressure, both sides of barrier). " In that statement they admit that there is a possibility of the tires off-gassing. Most people would like to see more scientific data/research to find out if and how much toxins are released. Their statement sounds more like a theoretical statement than a scientifically researched statement. They have now discovered that spray foam insulation out-gasses a horrendous amount even with drywall & latex paint applied. This study just came out this year and hit the building community with quite a shock. People have been getting sick many years after the foam is applied.

Once again, I am not knocking the home, I am just giving a balanced view of it's practically to the rest of the building community. For those who can build using that method, I would assume they would like some scientific research showing that the toxins in the tires will not leach into the soil, drinking water, or the occupants of the home.Tires are nasty and they have studies showing that where mounds of tires are stored, the groundwater becomes polluted as does the soil from the toxins leaching from them.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Jun 2013 09:42 PM

Posted By JimGagnepain on 27 Jun 2013 06:08 PM

We put some sealer over some of the adobe, but not all.  Toxins are not a concern at all.  This website discusses the outgassing (Question #8), or lack thereof.  Question 7 addresses potential fire issues, or lack thereof.

www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirehouseFAQ.htm

Thanks for the link. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Sometimes posts come across that way.

According to that site, "It's true that a pile of tires, once on fire, is almost impossible to extinguish." That part is very true, as that fireman personally told me. It goes on to say, "However, both in the case of rammed-earth tire walls and tire bale walls, there is insufficient oxygen (0% for rammed-earth tire walls and 5% for tire bale walls) contained within them to maintain an ongoing fire and can easily be extinguished." With that being said, the problem is that there is always oxygen (they claim 5%) within such a wall assembly and when a fire does get going inside those tire bales it will burn for a very long time. It's not impossible, especially since wiring snakes through the tire bale area. A fire within the tire bales would make the home uninhabitable and condemned.

Getting a home built with the tire bale method will almost prove impossible in 95% of building communities. One would have to build it in the middle of nowhere with very lax building codes. I'm not knocking the house, please don't get me wrong, it's a great idea but just being realistic in its applications to the general building population.

As far as gassing, the site stated, "Any gas produced by used tires in this application will have to go through at a minimum; a moisture barrier of 6 mil construction plastic film and at least 1" of stucco (cement) or adobe plaster, with nothing forcing it to do so (static pressure, both sides of barrier). " In that statement they admit that there is a possibility of the tires off-gassing. Most people would like to see more scientific data/research to find out if and how much toxins are released. Their statement sounds more like a theoretical statement than a scientifically researched statement. They have now discovered that spray foam insulation out-gasses a horrendous amount even with drywall & latex paint applied. This study just came out this year and hit the building community with quite a shock. People have been getting sick many years after the foam is applied.

Once again, I am not knocking the home, I am just giving a balanced view of it's practically to the rest of the building community. For those who can build using that method, I would assume they would like some scientific research showing that the toxins in the tires will not leach into the soil, drinking water, or the occupants of the home.Tires are nasty and they have studies showing that where mounds of tires are stored, the groundwater becomes polluted as does the soil from the toxins leaching from them.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the tires are "Gassed Out".  From this same website:

NOTE: The surface of used tires has been subjected to years of exposure to oxygen by high-speed rotation in the atmosphere.  The exposure causes a phenomenon called oxidation.  Oxidation "interlocks" the surface molecules with oxygen and 'out-gassing' (fly-away molecules of synthetic rubber) is considerably limited, if not stopped completely.  It's the new tires that stink/outgas, they need to "rust" for a while, before they are suitable for a building material.

I would think we all get more exposure from toxins from rubber when we're out on the roads, and there are newer tires, rotating at high speed everywhere.  Often, we are in a vehicle directly behind them.  Contrast this with a thickly covered wall over old tires.  It's obvious to me, which is worse.

Concerning your other point.  There are tens of thousands of used-tire homes around the US and the rest of the world.  According to the Earthship website, there is one in every state in the US.  They can be built on any lot that has a little land.  Our Regional Building Department is very open to alternative building methods.  However, they don't play favorites, and these homes are subject to the same regulations as conventional homes.

Posted By JimGagnepain on 28 Jun 2013 12:04 AM

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the tires are "Gassed Out".  From this same website:

NOTE: The surface of used tires has been subjected to years of exposure to oxygen by high-speed rotation in the atmosphere.  The exposure causes a phenomenon called oxidation.  Oxidation "interlocks" the surface molecules with oxygen and 'out-gassing' (fly-away molecules of synthetic rubber) is considerably limited, if not stopped completely.  It's the new tires that stink/outgas, they need to "rust" for a while, before they are suitable for a building material.

I would think we all get more exposure from toxins from rubber when we're out on the roads, and there are newer tires, rotating at high speed everywhere.  Often, we are in a vehicle directly behind them.  Contrast this with a thickly covered wall over old tires.  It's obvious to me, which is worse.

The tires are petroleum based and this study shown here shows how the tires continually leach chemicals and toxins into the ground for decades:

Scrap Tire Study - 2006

I agree with the point that the tires are buried in the soil and shotcrete is placed over them on the wall adjacent to the home. Unfortunately as the above study shows, tires will leach toxins into the soil for an indefinite period of time, hundreds of years. So unless the tires are completely encased in a 100% waterproof underground enclosure, they will release toxins into the soil and groundwater when they deteriorate.

As far as toxins/off gassing of new tires on the roads. It's apples and oranges comparison. We are exposed to numerous toxins out in the open air of our environment. What my concern is about is that the tire bales are sitting adjacent to ones living environment all while 1/2 of the home is buried underground. Hundreds of tires sitting behind a wall of porous shot crete and adobe is a lot different than standing outside as cars drive by with new tires on them. Remember, studies show indoor pollution is much higher on average than the outdoor pollution. The reason is simple, you are in a box and the toxins get trapped within that box, which has limited air movement and fresh air.

The studies show that there is leaching of chemicals into groundwater from tire bale houses but the claim by the EarthShip design people is that threat is minimized by them not being exposed to sunlight. Which is plausible but more 3rd party tests would be nice.

Tire disposal companies love getting rid of their old tires and they will even haul them to sites for free if you take enough of them. There is a reason for this. The tires are like toxic waste. They don't want to deal with storing & disposing of it and if someone wants to take it off their hands, they are more than helpful in bringing it to you, free of charge.

I just have a differing opinion of "green" builds and Earthships are not my thing but it's not the Earthship design per say as much as it is the tires bales it uses. I truly believe that if in-depth 3rd party studies were done they would observe toxins in the soil and potentially the groundwater due to the 100's of tires leaching their compounds over time. Air quality test studies within the EarthShip home would also show if there are any toxins permeating the walls.

Again, we have a disagreement on this issue.

Posted By JimGagnepain on 28 Jun 2013 12:04 AM


Concerning your other point.  There are tens of thousands of used-tire homes around the US and the rest of the world.  According to the Earthship website, there is one in every state in the US.  They can be built on any lot that has a little land.  Our Regional Building Department is very open to alternative building methods.  However, they don't play favorites, and these homes are subject to the same regulations as conventional homes.

EarthShip designs cannot be built in most residential areas. I know of no HOA/POA or community that would allow such a design. One has to be in a very remote location with a lot of open land around them or build in an area that is all EarthShips.

I just want to balance the conversation here. Net Zero homes don't have to look like EarthShips. Many Net Zero homes look like a normal modern above ground home.

The other question is getting a loan for such a dwelling. All the banks I know would not fund such a project. It would have to be 100% cash build.

Evidently in some cases, ground moisture has caused the cables to rust and eventually break. Then the bale "explodes".

Posted By Lbear on 28 Jun 2013 03:15 AM

Posted By JimGagnepain on 28 Jun 2013 12:04 AM


Concerning your other point.  There are tens of thousands of used-tire homes around the US and the rest of the world.  According to the Earthship website, there is one in every state in the US.  They can be built on any lot that has a little land.  Our Regional Building Department is very open to alternative building methods.  However, they don't play favorites, and these homes are subject to the same regulations as conventional homes.

EarthShip designs cannot be built in most residential areas. I know of no HOA/POA or community that would allow such a design. One has to be in a very remote location with a lot of open land around them or build in an area that is all EarthShips.

I just want to balance the conversation here. Net Zero homes don't have to look like EarthShips. Many Net Zero homes look like a normal modern above ground home.

The other question is getting a loan for such a dwelling. All the banks I know would not fund such a project. It would have to be 100% cash build.

Typically that's where you want a bermed-earth home - in a remote area, where one can enjoy the spectacular views.  I do know of a few in semi-remote areas, with neighbors within 200 feet away.

Absolutely on the 2nd point.  I fully support all NetZero homes!  We simply prefer this style.

Loans are definitely an issue.  Banks don't like anything out of the ordinary.  Appraisors can't find comps.  There are quite a few bermed-earth homes in this area, and it's even next to impossible to get a loan here.  I have my own take on home loans - avoid them if you can.  I paid my first home loan off in 5 years, and I don't want another.  Interest deductions are overrated, when you compare how much money one is throwing away in interest, over the life of the loan.

Posted By jonr on 28 Jun 2013 09:12 AM
Evidently in some cases, ground moisture has caused the cables to rust and eventually break. Then the bale "explodes".

It's a little dramatic to use the word "explode".  First, there is little oxygen to cause rusting.  Second, my tire bailer double-cabled my bales, the second cabling being galvanized steel, which doesn't tend to rust.  Thirdly, even if one does break, there is a 12" thick reinforced concrete bond beam holding everything together.

Posted By Lbear on 28 Jun 2013 03:06 AM

Posted By JimGagnepain on 28 Jun 2013 12:04 AM

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the tires are "Gassed Out".  From this same website:

NOTE: The surface of used tires has been subjected to years of exposure to oxygen by high-speed rotation in the atmosphere.  The exposure causes a phenomenon called oxidation.  Oxidation "interlocks" the surface molecules with oxygen and 'out-gassing' (fly-away molecules of synthetic rubber) is considerably limited, if not stopped completely.  It's the new tires that stink/outgas, they need to "rust" for a while, before they are suitable for a building material.

I would think we all get more exposure from toxins from rubber when we're out on the roads, and there are newer tires, rotating at high speed everywhere.  Often, we are in a vehicle directly behind them.  Contrast this with a thickly covered wall over old tires.  It's obvious to me, which is worse.

The tires are petroleum based and this study shown here shows how the tires continually leach chemicals and toxins into the ground for decades:

Scrap Tire Study - 2006

I agree with the point that the tires are buried in the soil and shotcrete is placed over them on the wall adjacent to the home. Unfortunately as the above study shows, tires will leach toxins into the soil for an indefinite period of time, hundreds of years. So unless the tires are completely encased in a 100% waterproof underground enclosure, they will release toxins into the soil and groundwater when they deteriorate.

As far as toxins/off gassing of new tires on the roads. It's apples and oranges comparison. We are exposed to numerous toxins out in the open air of our environment. What my concern is about is that the tire bales are sitting adjacent to ones living environment all while 1/2 of the home is buried underground. Hundreds of tires sitting behind a wall of porous shot crete and adobe is a lot different than standing outside as cars drive by with new tires on them. Remember, studies show indoor pollution is much higher on average than the outdoor pollution. The reason is simple, you are in a box and the toxins get trapped within that box, which has limited air movement and fresh air.

The studies show that there is leaching of chemicals into groundwater from tire bale houses but the claim by the EarthShip design people is that threat is minimized by them not being exposed to sunlight. Which is plausible but more 3rd party tests would be nice.

Tire disposal companies love getting rid of their old tires and they will even haul them to sites for free if you take enough of them. There is a reason for this. The tires are like toxic waste. They don't want to deal with storing & disposing of it and if someone wants to take it off their hands, they are more than helpful in bringing it to you, free of charge.

I just have a differing opinion of "green" builds and Earthships are not my thing but it's not the Earthship design per say as much as it is the tires bales it uses. I truly believe that if in-depth 3rd party studies were done they would observe toxins in the soil and potentially the groundwater due to the 100's of tires leaching their compounds over time. Air quality test studies within the EarthShip home would also show if there are any toxins permeating the walls.

Again, we have a disagreement on this issue.

I almost missed this post to the thread.  The "Scrap Tire Study -2006" is terrific, and really shows the horrors associated with tire disposal.  It is as much an argument for creative, proper use of tires in construction, as it is an argument against.  From a macro-sense, the tire disposal problem must be addressed.  I have 20,000 tires behind my home, more than my entire family has used in their collective lifetimes, including all cousins, etc.  I've done my part.  I'm joking here

None of the use of tire bales in this article, used a reinforced concrete bond beam to contain them.  None of them even used shotcrete.  Most were outdoor uses, with the bales right out in the open, exposed to sun and oxidation.

Years ago, it was discovered that CFCs were destroying the ozone layer.  Did we stop air conditioning?  Did we halt the use of styrofoam?  We came up with alternatives to the poor choice.  Similarly, these applications of tire bales, were a poor choice.  And now we move on, and learn how to use them properly.  This study sure shows the need.

I stand by the following study, concerning offgassing.  The Earthship folks in Taos have addressed these concerns in a thorough, comprehensive manner.

www.earthship.com/offgassing

Very cold winter, and only had to light the woodburning stove about 10 days this year. Incredible design! No other heat used at all. Far and away, the nicest home I've ever lived in...

Still loving this home. We loved the tire bale idea so much, that we built a retaining wall out of them.