craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 31 Oct 2014 04:00 PM |
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Normally I like to hang out in the “Testing Area” forum – lots of great stuff going on over there... But I thought I’d slum it in here for a while.  
I’ve learned a lot here about insulating walls.. thanks for that..
While I am in the process of designing an energy efficient ICF home, I have a project at work for which I have a few questions that I thought you all could help me with. So forgive the loads of questions. (I'll have plenty more about the house shortly...)
Part of what we do is dry wood in “kilns” to be processed later. We’re relocating our kilns – actually completely redesigning them and rebuilding them. In a nutshell, the kilns are 20’ x 30’ and about 12’ tall. There will be 6 of these rooms side by side. 4 kilns will share both of their 30’ walls. The outside two kilns will have 1 outside wall each and share their inside walls. Each Kiln will hold about 70 pallets which are stacked two high within the kilns with forklifts. The kilns are located within a 70,000 sqft building with poured concrete floor. I know there will be heat loss through the floor, but we have experience with this. It’s not ideal, but not horrible, as you might imagine, water does condense on the floor.
The nature of a wood kiln (dehumidification style) is that it sees temperatures to about 140 degrees F, and RH from 20% all the way to 90%. Through heating and dehumidification, we control the wet bulb and dry bulb temperatures in order to control the rate at which we’re pulling moisture from the wood (EMC). A kiln cycle is about 2 weeks, and a pre dry cycle is also about 2 weeks. Pre drying is open to ambient air and is merely circulating air through the wood to bring the Moisture Content to as low as 30%. After we pre-dry we start the kiln cycle. At the end of the Kiln Schedule we equalize and condition. There are fans and baffles continually recirculating air and reversing flow regularly.
The goal of this design is to improve over our current construction which is Block walls, and 1” pink stuff with Plywood – they are the same 20’x30’x12’. We would like to have more control over the environment. We don’t want to break the bank though. If we can get above an R25 or so we should see a significant improvement.
The wall design we’ve chosen for the shared walls is 2x6 construction. The stack up is:
½” PT Plywood -- 1” EPS -- Roxul Batt (to fill 2x6) -- 1” EPS -- ½” PT Plywood.
All seams will be taped in the EPS. The PT Ply would be painted with “kool seal” aluminum paint. The plywood protects the walls from damage loading with the forklifts and provides some insulation. The “sill” board on the bottom of the 2x6 wall will be PT lumber and insulated from the floor.
Here are my questions:
What do you think of this wall stack-up given the environment? Any ideas?
What is a good tape to seal the EPS seams?
What is a good sill board insulation?
Should we tape the seams on the Plywood too?
I’m pretty sure that moisture will penetrate these walls, does this design allow them to dry out? (Keep in mind that after each kiln cycle is a 2 week pre dry cycle with fans circulating ambient air.)
Would it be better to completely moisture seal the walls given the rough environment? (forklifts and pallets)
How would I attach the EPS to the studs?
How would I attach the Plywood through the EPS to the studs?
Should we use PT 2x6 for wall studs?
Thanks a lot everyone for any input. I greatly appreciate it. Sorry for all the questions..  
-C2 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 01 Nov 2014 01:10 PM |
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Since the inside is warm, damp and highly variable, I would guess that you want a wall that breathes very well to the exterior and is highly isolated from the interior (like a taped poly barrier on the inside and no EPS on the outside). I'd put foam under the floor too. I'd use multiple layers of EPS to avoid leakage through joints. Galvanized or stainless screws. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 03 Nov 2014 08:17 AM |
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Hi jonr, Thanks for your response! I do appreciate it. So, you're saying Keep the moisture where it started, don't let it penetrate the interior of the wall. Since these are shared walls... I could add a taped poly barrier to the studs, then do a couple of EPS layers offsetting the seams then ply over that. Keep the Roxul in the studs, which (it's my understanding) doesn't absorb moisture anyway (just in case)... New Stackup: PT Ply - 2 layers EPS - Poly Vapor Barrier - Stud wall (Roxul) - Poly Vapor Barrier - two layers EPS - PT Ply.
Thanks again jonr. -C2 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 03 Nov 2014 10:39 AM |
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A shared wall with the same temp on both sides won't have any condensation - so I'd skip the poly on those walls. In no case would I put poly on both sides (that traps moisture). Even EPS on both sides will restrict drying of the Roxul. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 03 Nov 2014 11:58 AM |
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Hi Jonr, The shared wall could definitely see wildly different temps and RH's on either side of itself, or it could be the same at some periods over a month. In some cases one room will be at 75F with 40% RH. The other side will be a 135F with 85% humidity. At some point it could be the opposite. Depending upon which wall, they may be on an opposite cycle, or just merely independent. It's a row of six rooms that share walls. Each of those room goes through a cycle depending upon what's in it. So, each room is a desert, a rain-forest, or just a windy room according to the Moisture Content of the wood that's within it. So, the question is... Is keeping the moisture out of the center of the wall (2x6 Roxul insulted cavities) the right way to go ? The pull of moisture can be in either direction depending upon the relationship of the cycles in the adjoining kilns. Maybe not. Your suggestion is interesting. Thanks again! C2 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 03 Nov 2014 09:37 PM |
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With such variability, I'd wouldn't use any poly (just EPS/Roxul/plywood) on interior walls. Tape or gasket both sides. At least it will stop most air movement (the source of most water vapor problems) and thermal bridging (a waste of energy). |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 04 Nov 2014 09:53 AM |
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Ok. Thanks Jonr... We drew it up with the poly right now.
I welcome any thoughts or suggestions. |
Attachment: Kiln_CrossX.pdf
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 04 Nov 2014 10:20 AM |
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In that drawing, I see 4mil poly on both sides. Also OSB (less durable and less moisture permeable) and marine plywood (as far as I know, this isn't pressure treated). On the exterior walls, I'd put the poly just under the plywood. It's an unusual application - you should talk to others about what works well. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 04 Nov 2014 10:59 AM |
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We're definitely seeking input from others who've built kilns... The "shared walls" aspect is one that is new for most however. You're right. Marine Ply isn't PT. We're debating using PT Ply or Marine Ply, or in fact... just regular Plywood coated with Kool Seal. And, we're also discussing eliminating the poly all together on shared walls and keeping it only on the "exterior" walls (still within a building). It's a fun problem. There is a potential for heat flow and water vapor flow in both directions... rapidly. -C2 |
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Eric Anderson
 Basic Member
 Posts:441

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| 06 Nov 2014 03:58 PM |
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That is a scary stackup. In my mind I would want to separate the rooms slightly say 12” and not have them share common walls. In that case I would consider using plywood, a ¾” spacer then a true vapor barrier, likely poly, then 4-5 inches of rigid rockwool ci boards, then a stud wall. The reason I would prefer rockwool over foam is it is much more vapor open, and I would think it would have less expansion and contraction vs foam. I might fill the stud bays with rockwool, I might leave it out. The plywood would be subject to the full wetting and drying cycles so it would have to be very moisture tolerant- I would rule out osb. The goal is to always have a path for drying. For most of the time the vapor drive will be from inside to out, so you want the vapor barrier on the inside of the stack up, but protected by ply. The plywood will be back vented because of the ¾” air space behind it. The Poly is the vapor barrier and everything to the outside of it is very vapor open. I would think the ply would take a beating with the repeated cycling. If you have common walls it seems to me that there is no way to prevent inward wetting without a vapor barrier but then it can’t dry to the other wood bay. I would not want to predict the long term problems with this You don’t want to try a “smart” vapor barrier retarder, it would be the exact opposite of what you want.
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 06 Nov 2014 04:14 PM |
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Thanks for your input eric! I can't disagree with anything you've said. We're thinking of the regular plywood (not OSB, except on the outside wall) and no vapor barrier really because it's like "admitting defeat". The interior of the wall is going to get wet, the forklifts and the pallets are going to damage the plywood.... so you'll have to replace that overtime anyway. So, Keep it simple. Inspect behind the plywood sheets regularly (after each cycle) and replace as necessary. Definitely going with Rockwool - but I do want to look into your suggestion of rigid rockwool ci boards..... We're starting to think that a vapor barrier in this environment is just going to be torn up after a few months anyway....With the exception of perhaps on the ceiling. The good news is that while we do have periods of high humidity in the kilns, after each of these periods (where we actually have misters pumping water into the room for about 24 hours while at about 125F), you'll be pumping dry air through the rooms at a high cfm for two weeks. It should allow things to dry out. Thanks again, -C2 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 06 Nov 2014 04:21 PM |
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Rigid rockwool over EPS is a good point - it will breath better. Mold takes several days to start growing, so 24 hours is fine. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 06 Nov 2014 05:26 PM |
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What's a good source for Rigid Rockwool? Thanks. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 06 Nov 2014 05:30 PM |
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Mold? Who cares about mold...! Let it grow.  Nothing a little bleach can't handle.... Or a lot of bleach. (Kidding, mold leads to rot.. etc.. but I'm not expecting this to be a mold free design either...)  |
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GeorgiaTom
 Basic Member
 Posts:159
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| 06 Nov 2014 06:12 PM |
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Craigtoo ever think of using metal sips, they are made for wet environments |
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arkie6
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1453
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| 06 Nov 2014 06:15 PM |
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Have you considered installing Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic (FRP) panels on the inside of the plywood, i.e. use FRP panels glued and/or screwed directly to the plywood in place of the Kool Seal paint? The cost for the panels is ~$1/sq. ft for 4'x8' sheets at Lowes or Home Depot. The FRP panels would be much more durable and impact resistant than the Kool Seal coating. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 06 Nov 2014 06:24 PM |
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Both great ideas....! I do like the idea of a mold garden. I got married last year, and I haven't seen mold since!  Girls are *so* particular. (Thank God) Will those FRP panels take a beating? We need to load 35 double stacked pallets of wood into this garage/kiln. Understandably, the walls get hit. (Like the sides of a 53' trailer)... I have thought of metal SIPS, and I would entertain them for sure - but I think they'll probably be significantly more than this construction. Right? Let me do some homework there....
EDIT: WRT the FRP, I did read your comments about durability - but it's very easy to paint over scrapes and more difficult and costly to replace broken panels... I didn't mean to come across as if I were ignoring your suggestion. But I want to make sure they can get hammered and just keep on going. |
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GeorgiaTom
 Basic Member
 Posts:159
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| 06 Nov 2014 07:12 PM |
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FRP is not structural , but steel SIPs are and are commonly used in commercial cold storage, citrus and food processing facilities, they are also used as EPS curing ovens |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 07 Nov 2014 08:52 AM |
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I expect that some horizontal, treated 2x4s would offer good bumper protection. I'd also look at SCIPs - concrete (as thick as you want), steel mesh and foam would be quite durable. |
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craigtoo
 New Member
 Posts:98
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| 07 Nov 2014 08:57 AM |
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Good stuff all. I appreciate the ideas. We'll definitely install bumpers that will help, as well as using a double sill on the bottom to protect against the forks. I'm looking into the FRP's now. Seems very straight forward. Tape the seams... or not... either way. A good durable interior skin that can be removed and replaced cost effectively.... Cheers, -C2 |
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