Ground vs Air Source Heat Pump
Last Post 10 Aug 2015 01:52 PM by Dana1. 2 Replies.
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NuclearsteelUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2015 08:31 PM
I know that this has been discussed on this any many other forums...BUT let's have a go at it one more time.  I am about to build a new house and have been going back and forth between a ground source and air course system.  Both of these systems will be forced air.  My house will be about 2750 sq. feet located in Central Pennsylvania.  I electricity cost is $0.11 / kWh...I cannot get natural gas.  Basically my options are propane, oil, electric and biomass.

I am an engineer by profession with quite a bit of experience using both geo and air course heat pumps in both commercial and residential applications.  These days I spend most of my time doing consulting with a focus on financials of various building systems.

I am looking at a heat pumps mostly 2 stage with SEER ratings of 17.5 to 19 and HSPF of 9.5 to 11  manufactures are Bryant, Trane, and Lennox. 

For geothermal  mostly 2 stage systems with a COP of 4 to 5 and an EER rating of 22 to 30....either Bosch or Climatemaster.

State and Utility rebates are almost a wash between the two (a few hundred more for geo)...federally the 30% rebate for the geo makes the cost between the two within a few thousand dollars.

The problem I have is...my math tells me that the Geo system will only save about $150 a year vs. new air source heat pumps.   How you say?  When actually considering real data, it seems geo ratings (COP and EER) are realistically lower than what is experienced for various reasons.   I have experienced this but never quantified the percentage with actual data.  Looks like in the link below someone has:

https://blog.heatspring.com/real-time-geothermal-cop-data/

So, I considered COP numbers for the geothermal systems to be about 3 to 3.5 and EER to be 18 to 23.  When I run the numbers I just cannot justify installing a more complex system with a high life cycle cost and larger margin of error on the installation that geothermal seems to bring. 

I also plan on having a 50,000 BTU wood stove in the house for backup heat during power outages and for when it gets COLD.

The sizing of the units seems to be about 3 tons...I have the heat loss calculations here somewhere but for this discussion let's assume 3 tons.

If anyone has going thru similar calculations and has a different opinion or disagrees please let me know! 

Thanks,

John




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09 Aug 2015 11:18 PM
Do your geothermal figures include the savings of pre-heating your domestic hot water?

You can run the numbers for a Climatemaster geothermal system using the Climatemaster Geodesigner program here:

http://www.climatemaster.com/geothe...odesigner/

I often see geothermal systems posted here and on other forums that don't reach their potential because the loops are short changed. With the Geodesigner program, you can set entering water temperature limits and it will provide the length of loop needed to meet those limits and provide the required BTUs. I designed my system (3 ton Climatemaster 2 stage TE 30 series with variable flow loop pump) with target entering water temperatures of >40F heating and <90F cooling (deep earth temp here is ~62F). I was limited on the cooling capacity rather than heating capacity in my area. I ended up with ~20% more pipe in the ground than is typically installed by geothermal contractors in my area.

Dana1User is Offline
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10 Aug 2015 01:52 PM
With geo there is a much bigger risk factor related to installer competence than there is with air-source heat pumps.  The system designers & installers will make or break the potential COP of the GSHP.  While this is true for air source heat pumps too, the number of ways you can screw it up are fewer. (Though the more idiot-proof you make something, the more creative the idiots become.)  With GSHP it can be fairly difficult to fully vet the contractor ahead of time, but as an engineer with geo experience you'll have a much better shot at it than most.

But 3 tons of load for a 2750' house implies a IRC 2009 code min (or worse) house, and if the house is not yet built there are numerous ways to cost effectively reduce those loads, often dramatically.  (For reference, I live in a ~2700' antique 1.5 story 2x4 framed house in US climate zone 5A, and have design heat @ +5F that would be covered by almost any 3 ton system. Your new house should do better- a LOT better!)  If you can bring the loads to under 2 tons a 1.5 ton Fujitsu 18RLFCD ducted mini-split (20K nominal output @ +17F)  would be comparatively cheap to install- less than half that of a 3-ton variable speed ASHP, with comparable or better efficiency. (In some cases it will even have higher capacity at low temp than a 2-3 ton variable speed units from the aforementioned vendors.)

The ton or more of load that disappears has a lifecycle nearly as long as the house, and uses no power, so even if the building envelope upgrades with a 1.5 mini-split costs a bit more, it can still be "worth it" on energy savings alone a lifecycle basis.  But the higher performance envelope done right will also be more comfortable and more resilient.  With the possible exception of radiant floors, a higher thermal performance house buys more comfort than any heating system will. That higher thermal performance is far cheaper now (at the design stage) than it ever will be after the fact.

Whether building a code-min house or a higher performance house, taking the extra time to define the primary air barrier layer during the design phase, then enforcing/inspecting that during construction is some of the cheapest performance you can ever buy.  Most infiltration & ventilation defaults in load calculation tools are on the ridiculously high side- higher than would be found in a real IRC 2012 code house.  Code max air leakage is 3 air exchanges at 50 pascals (3ACH/50), but it doesn't take rocket science builders to build to half that or less.  It's possible that your 3 ton load numbers have an excessive infiltration or ventilation loss driving the numbers beyond reality here.

A typical IRC 2012 code min house comes in at a heat load/floor ratio of about 10-12 BTU/ft^2- hr.  A pretty good higher-R house (without taking it to the PassiveHouse extreme, or even to Net Zero Energy), can come in at 6-8BTU/ft^2- hr without a huge expenditure.  When looking at lifecycle financial rationality IRC 2012 code min isn't even close to blowing the budget- there's plenty of ways to bump it up cost-effectively. As a good starting point, take a peek at Table 2 p.10 of this document:

http://buildingscience.com/file/580...n=GouEIX9Y

Note- those are "whole assembly R", not center-cavity R: eg: a code-min 2x6/R20 wall is really R14-R15-ish after factoring in the thermal bridging of the framing. To hit R20 would require adding R5 continuous exterior sheathing (not a recommended stackup unless the continuous insulation is rigid rock-wool, due to dew-point/drying resilience concerns)

You are most likely in US climate zone 5, but possibly zone 6.  In Table 2 they are suggesting that R30 whole-wall is in the mid-range of what might be financially rational on a full lifecycle basis, depending on what your future energy cost inflation projections and current material, labor, and financing costs are. An example of a ~R30-ish whole-wall stackup would be 2x6 / R20 + 3" of exterior rigid foam.

In cheap energy/high labor markets that may not be lifecycle-rational unless you are projecting high energy cost inflation at some point in the next 50 years.  But a true R20-R25 whole-wall stackup is almost certainly going to be financially rational. A very resilient R25-ish wall in that range would be 2x6/R20 using damp-sprayed cellulose or open cell foam cavity fill, with a 1" layer of foil faced polyiso  on the exterior of the sheathing (R5.5-ish derated for climate temperature and layer within the stackup) and 1" 1.5lb density "Type-II" EPS on the exterior of that (R4.5-ish temperature up-rated for climate and layer within the stackup.)  If that wall is too fat for you, try 2x4/cellulose + 1.5" polyiso + 1-1.5" EPS, which is at worst an inch thicker than a 2x6 wall that has no insulating sheathing, but comes in at ~R22-R25 whole wall, compared to R14-R15 for a code-min house, reducing the wall-loss figures by about 1/3.

Bumping up to R65-R75 in the attic from a code-min R49 with another 4-6"  blown cellulose is dirt cheap, but the extra depth required means it needs to be designed into the roof trusses or framing ahead of time to accommodate it.

It goes on...

By the time you've spent $15-20K on going beyond code min on a least-cost methods basis it's likely that you will have gotten the heat load under 24,000 BTU/hr, possibly under 20,000 BTU/hr, at which point the higher cost mechanical systems become less interesting.

Before finalizing any of the decisions it's worth downloading a copy of BeOpt  and simulating the energy use of the house playing "what if?" games on different envelope changes using budgetary numbers (or real quotes) on different options.



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