Two stage Iowa no code efficient shouse build.. Options?
Last Post 05 Feb 2019 09:50 PM by Dana1. 6 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
rebarUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:31

--
05 Jul 2018 08:40 PM
Hello everyone.

I bought a little zone 5 acreage in Iowa county Iowa, were there are no building codes and low taxes to build my retirement home.  I'd move into the existing 16x80 right now and sell my 5 bedroom townhouse if my GF's kids didn't live out there now. Anyway..

Iv been reading about different super insulated net zero building techniques and want my new shouse to be as energy efficient as possible.  But I don't want to get carried away over insulating or buying all sorts of expensive gizmo's pushing total cost past the point of diminishing or no returns just to call myself green.  I want to see, hold and realize "the green".

I want to build my >3000 sq' building in two steps..  Hire a contractor to build the first un-insulated wooden structure on a concrete wall on footings.   Then later, build a modest one bedroom studio on a poured slab in half of it..  Iv been involved in the trades most of my life and although building the main structure is more than I can tackle alone.  Building the living quarters with a storage loft myself is something I'm confident I can do myself before I retire in ten years. 

My question is, whats the most realistic cost effective way to approach my build?  Should I build a studio inside of my 2x4 garage with 12" of wall 24" ceiling space and fill with loose? And would I have any issues with the slab and foundation moving separately since this approach requires the inside and outside wall resting on different foundations?  Or should I use the 2x6 stick built garage as the sole wall system and add 4" of foam insulation to the outside, 1" inside?  I'm not sure I like the aesthetics of 4" of insulation hanging and sticking past a foundation, or how it would drain sitting on a concrete ledge to hide it.  But from what Iv been reading, its a good way to insulate compared to sprayed foam inside and the thermal bridging that still occurs..

Anyway..  As you can read, my mind is all over the place.    If you were in Iowa County Iowa, (average high 86 average low 14) what type of construction would you use to save on utilities?  Or would you concentrate more on a solar power system and go all electric with a grid tie system? lol  I don't want to live in a really nice place because eventually the tax man catch's up to you, but I don't want a short life building like a pole-barn in the ground even though the stigma doesn't bother me.

Thanks!
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
05 Jul 2018 09:29 PM
The 2x6/R20 walls of a zone 5 IRC code-min house typically performs at about R17 "whole wall" after factoring in the thermal bridging of the framing, adding in the R-values of sheathing/siding/wallboard/air films, etc. . Adding as little as 3" of continuous reclaimed roofing polyiso it doubles the performance, cutting the heat loss through walls in half. From a lifecycle cost-effectiveness point of view that would still work if buying sheets of new 3" x 4' x 8' roofing polyiso @ $60-65/sheet, but when using reclaimed goods at @ $15-25/sheet you don't necessarily have to run NPV math on it to make the financial case.

For a rough idea of where the limits of financial rationality are, look at the zone 5 row in Table 2, p5 of this document:

https://buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/BA-1005_High%20R-Value_Walls_Case_Study.pdf

Those are all "whole assembly R" numbers, not center-cavity. A 2x6/R20 wall + 3" of continuous roofing polyiso comes in between R30-R35 whole-wall, depending on stud spacing and the material stackup of all layers. Note, the U0.24 (max) windows are better than IRC code min, but don't have to be triple-panes either. Double low-E glass with a typical low-E coating on surface #2 (the interior side of the exterior pane) and a hard coat pyrolytic low-E on surface #4 (the interior side that in direct contact with the room air) can hit those numbers even with air-fill, but it's worth the up-charge for argon fill, which brings it down to the U0.20- U0.22 range (depending on thickness.) A number of insulated glass manufacturers offer that type of glass. Cardinal's Loe-180 + i89 glass with argon fill is found in some Pella or Anderson windows, among others. The Loe-180 has an atypically high SHGC, which makes it great for south facing windows, but perhaps too much gain for west facing windows. (Cardinal has lower SHGC glass with the i89 hard coat on #4 if you want to kill the gain on the east & west facing windows.)

The wall stackup matters from a moisture management point of view. What is the siding/sheathing/framing stackup of the planned building? If you build the main building with 2x6 studs 24" o.c. with back ventilated siding you could then insulate that wall with R20-R23 rock wool where your living quarters are, and install 2-3" of reclaimed foam on the interior side, strapping the foam to the wall with 1x furring through-screwed to the studs with timber screws, mounting the wallboard to the furring. There are other possibilities too, but that's an easy R30+ to build.

What do you intend to use for heating/cooling?



rebarUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:31

--
05 Jul 2018 11:13 PM
Posted By Dana1 on 05 Jul 2018 09:29 PM
The 2x6/R20 walls of a zone 5 IRC code-min house typically performs at about R17 "whole wall" after factoring in the thermal bridging of the framing, adding in the R-values of sheathing/siding/wallboard/air films, etc. . Adding as little as 3" of continuous reclaimed roofing polyiso it doubles the performance, cutting the heat loss through walls in half. From a lifecycle cost-effectiveness point of view that would still work if buying sheets of new 3" x 4' x 8' roofing polyiso @ $60-65/sheet, but when using reclaimed goods at @ $15-25/sheet you don't necessarily have to run NPV math on it to make the financial case.

For a rough idea of where the limits of financial rationality are, look at the zone 5 row in Table 2, p5 of this document:

https://buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/BA-1005_High%20R-Value_Walls_Case_Study.pdf

Those are all "whole assembly R" numbers, not center-cavity. A 2x6/R20 wall + 3" of continuous roofing polyiso comes in between R30-R35 whole-wall, depending on stud spacing and the material stackup of all layers. Note, the U0.24 (max) windows are better than IRC code min, but don't have to be triple-panes either. Double low-E glass with a typical low-E coating on surface #2 (the interior side of the exterior pane) and a hard coat pyrolytic low-E on surface #4 (the interior side that in direct contact with the room air) can hit those numbers even with air-fill, but it's worth the up-charge for argon fill, which brings it down to the U0.20- U0.22 range (depending on thickness.) A number of insulated glass manufacturers offer that type of glass. Cardinal's Loe-180 + i89 glass with argon fill is found in some Pella or Anderson windows, among others. The Loe-180 has an atypically high SHGC, which makes it great for south facing windows, but perhaps too much gain for west facing windows. (Cardinal has lower SHGC glass with the i89 hard coat on #4 if you want to kill the gain on the east & west facing windows.)

The wall stackup matters from a moisture management point of view. What is the siding/sheathing/framing stackup of the planned building? If you build the main building with 2x6 studs 24" o.c. with back ventilated siding you could then insulate that wall with R20-R23 rock wool where your living quarters are, and install 2-3" of reclaimed foam on the interior side, strapping the foam to the wall with 1x furring through-screwed to the studs with timber screws, mounting the wallboard to the furring. There are other possibilities too, but that's an easy R30+ to build.

What do you intend to use for heating/cooling?



Thanks Dana1. 

As far as heating and cooling.. Its all still up in the air.  A buddy of mine in wisconsin talks about the dirt cheap truck load of fire wood he gets delivered, and the vacuum tube solar his friend has, so again I'm not sure but I am familiar with common hvac systems and worked in the field for 17 years installing them. Right now the source of fuel is propane so there will be a propane forced air furnace, which could be supplemented while I'm able to load a wood burner. The furnace would probably have a split ac system.  But I'm on the fence about insulating under the slab in the garage.  Yes I will insulate under the studio, but if I don't plan on air conditioning my garage, cant I keep it a bit cooler w/o insulation and keeping the door closed?  I remember working in a few slab on grade sheet metal shops and we always kept the doors shut and it stayed allot cooler with the floor damp than outside.. Did they forget the poly?  I doubt I will spend much time in my garage in the winter unless I have a emergency repair.  Meaning I will pay more attention to the insulating the studio half.  The garage is as much for storage as it is for work and vehicles.

As far as the planned wall stack up?   Definitely back vented siding.. Id love raw white cedar shingles lol and how they turn silver/black with white trim, but AG metal or maybe galvalume might be more realistic.  I'm sold and onboard with the reclaimed foam.  Wouldn't 6" of reclaimed foam over radiant barrier sheathing on a 2x4 wall make more sense than the 4" over 2x6" ? 

I'm interested in a solution to hide the reclaimed foam because it sticking way out 4-6" proud looks really cheesy.  Can a 4-6" sloped "brick ledge" be formed on a 8-10" foundation wall deep enough to only have 1" of back venting sticking out proud?  Being able to bump the foundation while mowing without damage is important plus I want the siding up out of the rain splashing.   But if I make the "foam ledge" I wont have enough room to make a ledge for the slab to sit on unless I pour a 12" wall. Can the slab be pinned to the foundation wall?

Thanks again!

Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
06 Jul 2018 04:17 PM
Putting 6" of foam on walls is surprisingly more awkward than 3-4" , even more so when using reclaimed roofing foam, since the thickness dimensions will have changed a bit with use, and not consistently, making multiple layered foam pretty un-planar.

If the foam is going to rest directly on concrete on the it's best to use polystyrene, not polyiso, especially if installing it on the exterior of the wall, directly under the siding. Polyiso can wick & retain moisture over time, polystyrene does not. If going that route, fill your brick-ledge with EPS, and start the polyiso at the bottom plate of the studwall, with an EPDM (membrane roof material) extending over the top of the concrete & EPS all the way to the exterior for a guaranteed capillary break.

I was suggesting installing the rigid foam on the interior side of the exterior wall, not on the exterior under the siding.
rebarUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:31

--
02 Feb 2019 02:43 PM
Posted By Dana1 on 06 Jul 2018 04:17 PM

If the foam is going to rest directly on concrete on the it's best to use polystyrene, not polyiso, especially if installing it on the exterior of the wall, directly under the siding. Polyiso can wick & retain moisture over time, polystyrene does not. If going that route, fill your brick-ledge with EPS, and start the polyiso at the bottom plate of the studwall, with an EPDM (membrane roof material) extending over the top of the concrete & EPS all the way to the exterior for a guaranteed capillary break.

I was suggesting installing the rigid foam on the interior side of the exterior wall, not on the exterior under the siding.
 
Sorry, things with the trailer have been failing and Iv had second thoughts about this property.  But I'm back. 

Your the first person who has suggested 4" rigid foam on the interior side of the wall and all the illustrations on your great building science link show it installed on the exterior when used.

Can you provide a link or more search terms regarding installing more than 1" of foam on the interior Dana1?
rebarUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:31

--
04 Feb 2019 11:14 PM
I'm going to assume that was a typo?  Anyone?
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
05 Feb 2019 09:50 PM
Without re-reading the entire verbose-mode thread I'm betting on "typo"! :-)

For below grade foundations it's easiest/best to install the foam on the interior. For above grade framed walls exterior is usually easiest.
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 234 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 234
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement