Head right to HD they have shrink film for windows and doors $4 for a 4 pack and $6 for a sliding door. Also pick up some new weather stripping for the entrance doors. A pair of pliers and pull the old Q-lon out and slip in the new. Door sweeps are cheap. Every thing can be installed by the most inept homeowner. With your situation pay back would be about a week.

Like smartwall said, stop the bleeding first and seal up those windows.

What climate zone (city) are you in?
Do you know what type of attic and wall insulation you have? If not, take a look in the attic and basement

While its natural to jump right to the geothermal/solar solution, you're much better off lowering BTU usage by addressing insulation issues first.

Do you own the propane tank or is it leased? If you own it and are able to shop around for propane you may be able to save a bundle. If a propane company owns it you're stuck paying their rate, at least in my area.

Can you reformat this (possibly need to be using a different web browser) to insert some paragraph breaks?

Here's a quick stab at de-WOT'ing his post.


Hi, all. Newbie here.

We moved into another home in November. It's now 22 years old. Old house (~4200 sq. ft. finished) had natural gas HVAC for basement & 1st floor, and electric heat pump for 2nd floor.

Average costs were $60/mo annual budget billing for NG, and total electric average was $192/mo annual budget billing.

Thermostats set to about 70-73, depending on season/time (programmable thermostats).

New house (~4500 sq. ft finished) is propane tank (500 gallon) feeding original (1998) propane furnace in basement, and I think there's also a separate electric heat pump for upstairs.

Last 2 months for electric has been $219 each, not budget billing yet.

Propane, is another story. Found out previous owners used to get propane delivered 2x/month in winter. Seemed a bit excessive to me. (never had propane). From 11/10 - 12/12, we nearly emptied tank. $948 delivered on 12/12. Propane water heater kicking off at least every day after failing to ignite. Replaced with tankless unit (still propane). $653 delivered on 1/8. $424 delivered on 1/24 $424 delivered on 2/14.
First good rain/wind storm, we could hear wind howling pretty bad, feel actual drafts coming in, etc. We found a couple of the double hung windows had top windows that were slightly down. Fixed that.
We put up 'thermal insulating' curtains on most of the windows facing west - where the wind was coming fiercely from. We think making sure all windows closed and putting up the thermal curtains helped some, as now can go 3 weeks w/o propane fill up and it's down to 200 gallon usage instead of closer to 450 gallons from that 1st month.

Now, I'd like to fix what needs to be fixed to stop $2400/propane bill in 4 months, as that's more than double what my entire electric bill was and a whopping 40x what our NG bill was - and I still have more months to go to heat this winter!

However, I believe I have 3 major projects I'd like to undertake to combat this and I'm not sure which would be best to undertake 1st.

Project 1. New windows & doors.

There are 3 sets of exterior french doors (with visible gaps), 2 other exterior solo doors that don't seal properly. I am fairly confident they are the original windows/doors from 1998. Late summer (August) and early fall (October) we visited home & did final walk through before purchase. Previous owner had pull down blinds (supposed to be energy efficient) up - and sunlight made the main living areas (LOTS of windows) unbearably hot.

Thus, I know they are now low-e rated windows and pretty sure their SHGC rating is horrible. You can feel much colder just standing next to a window. My daughter's bedroom even has 1 that semi-frosted over one or two nights. We had a quote, and the best 1 company could do (Thompson Creek, I think) was about $28K to replace 33 windows.

Project 2. Solar panels.

Plenty of roof space + a detached garage, I'm confident I could get a 9-10kw system. Not sure of cost, but I figure $25-30K.
Also, back part of yard (6 acres total) is about 1.5-2 acres and I might be able to get permission from county for ground-based solar panel installation? Not sure if that's a thing, but scares me less than roof mounted. Roof is new, and doesn't leak. Would hate to punch holes through that new roof, and invite leaks. Plus, what are repairs/replacements like if things break? I'm not physically able to do it myself.

Project 3. Geothermal HVAC.

I think total cost would be $25-30K. This would hopefully drastically reduce the propane usage next to nil. It would cut it all out except for the tankless water heater. I just had that installed, so it's brand new. Wife & I are considering having a propane cook top installed to replace electric. We had NG at last house, and miss gas cooking. Not sure if we'd like propane vs. NG. The NG did not smell in the house as you were cooking. Does anybody know of propane does as long as it's burning? I've read through a couple threads trying to find out how efficient the geothermal systems are, and most seem to agree they are pretty slick systems when it comes to monthly operating costs - as long as the home is built right. With our windows/doors, I feel we'd have the same issues.

So, my conundrum.

Replace windows/doors 1st? Try Geothermal 1st? Try solar 1st? I can probably do all 3, but I can only do about 1 of these major projects per year. It looks like if I get either Solar or Geothermal installed/operational before 12/31/2020, either would qualify for the 26% tax credit. I like thought of geothermal HVAC, if it can drastically reduce that insane propane bill. Seems like it would pay for itself in 8-10 years at the current rate of usage, heck maybe even fewer. When we finished/added windows/doors to that, it'd be even greater savings, right?

I believe if I do both geothermal & windows (2020 & 2021, I can get a tax credit for each @ 26% & then 22%, maybe. But would I still be paying astronomical amounts monthly until I get the windows/doors replaced? Sorry for the lengthy post, and I hope some of you experts will chime in with logic and/or theory. I'd like to save the most up front, and monthly, to reduce our monthly expenses in the long run.
We've moved about 15-17 times in the last 30 years. I hope this home we will be able to stay @ for the next 30+ years, though, so we are committed to long term care & investment in the home for the 1st time ever.

Depending on the window and door quality. That's what I would do first. It's going to determine size of the other systems.

I wouldnt recommend geothermal (really ground source heat pump system) in general unless you were in a very cold climate. In Virginia, an air source heat pump system like a mini split system would be a very good solution. As others have said, improving and quantifying your building envelope performance is the right first step.

Although you're against the idea- A good test would be to seal up the windows with plastic, even temporarily, to see the impact on energy usage and comfort. And if that doesn't give results that you're happy with, figure on addressing other insulation issues along with the new high efficiency windows and doors. If you're going to be in the home for 30 years you should be focusing on getting all air leaks sealed up and maybe increasing insulation values. That pays you back every day

Start by air sealing all the obvious stuff yourself, then PAYING an air sealing contractor with a blower door and IR camera to find and fix all the big leaks that are less obvious. A decent depth of fluff in the attic doesn't do much for slowing down the stack effect drive- if the upper floor ceiling isn't air tight it would still pull warm air up in winter, depressurizing the lower levels. As a general rule the usual best order of business is:

A: air sealing (primarily at the top and bottom of the house, to reduce stack effect infiltration)

B: identifying and fixing any gaps in the insulation

C: higher efficiency right-sized HVAC equipment.

When there is a substantial difference in fuel cost (such as heat pumps vs. propane, in most markets) the HVAC moves up, but it's important for both efficiency & comfort to size it correctly for the "after building upgrades" loads, or at least not oversize it for house in the where-is-as-is condition pre-upgrades condition.

See if you can't correlate propane use to heating degree days, and from that estimate the amount of heating load that is being covered by the propane burner. A primer on how to do this lives here:

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new

With fuel-use heat load estimate the sizing of any replacement systems won't be ridiculously oversized & overpriced, but verifying the load with a Manual-J is still advisable as a sanity check, even a freebie/cheapie DIY Manual-J or Manual-J-ish tools like coolcalc.com or loadcalc.net won't deliver crazy-oversized results if using AGGRESSIVE assumptions on air tightness & R-values. Do NOT leave this part of the task to an HVAC contractor. If anyone other than you are running the numbers, it should be disinterested third party such as an registered professional engineer or RESNET rater whose livelihood & reputation is made on the accuracy of their numbers, not installing & maintaining equipment. It takes time to do the measurements necessary to get the calculations right, and HVAC contractors don't usually have the time, and are more likely than not to be conservative rather than aggressive in their assumptions leading to oversizing.

Beyond the upfront cost, and potentially lower efficiency, oversizing the equipment has a comfort cost that should not be ignored. Nate Adams (a former insulation contractor in Cleveland OH) has made a business out of fixing comfort & efficiency problems with houses, and recently published a book on the topic. It's worth reviewing his free chapters & short videos on the topic before spending any money on HVAC, and that may help prioritize the order in which you fix things:

http://www.natethehousewhisperer.com/home-comfort-101.html

http://www.natethehousewhisperer.com/hvac-101.html

http://www.natethehousewhisperer.com/hvac-102.html


What sailawayrb said is true about geothermal- in locations as temperate as Virginia there are much cheaper modulating air source heat pumps that would rival the efficiency of geothermal at a much lower upfront cost. When correctly sized, modulating cold climate heat pumps (ducted or ductless) with vapor injection compressors (not your grandma's 1-2 stage heat pump) provide phenomenal comfort & efficiency. When oversized they're all crap. (Don't do a "ductless head per room" approach unless the contractor promises to let you vacation on the yacht they bought with the money.) Odds are pretty good that the propane burner is crazy-oversized for the load, and the ducts are too, and if the ducts are reasonably tight there may be a comparatively inexpensive ducted mini-split solution that works using the existing ducts.

The 99% outside design temp in your area is about +18F (the design temp for the Winchester Regional Airport: https://higherlogicdownload.s3.amazonaws.com/ACCA/c6b38bda-2e04-4f93-bd51-7a80525ad936/UploadedImages/Outdoor-Design-Conditions-1.pdf Yes, I know it gets colder than that.) That is pretty close to the 17F test temperature in AHRI testing of air source heat pumps, a temperature at which the capacity is always specified, so it should be pretty easy to spec a heat pump that works, and isn't crazy oversized once you have the heat load numbers nailed down.

Sometimes 20 year old windows that are reasonably air tight can be economically re-glazed with higher performance glass, sometimes not. From a comfort point of view it can make a difference, but it's almost never economic on a fuel-use basis to replace windows. Sometimes it's possible to install hard-coat low-E exterior storms over clear-glass double panes and hit replacement window performance at a much lower price point, but this isn't the first thing to go after.

Thanks for the info.

I took some FLIR images tonight.
Here are a few FLIR images I took tonight. It's a comfy 73 inside, and a chilly 28 outside.

FLIR images

If I have 'em in the right order:
1. Front door outside shot.
2. Front door inside shot.
3. Back door inside shot.
4. Bedroom #2 & master bath windows above basement outside staircase.
5. Better shot of the basement area below previous shot.

That first image is basically SCREAMING air sealing and insulation issues all along the front facing of your home.

It's easier to find the air leaks with IR imaging of the interiror while the house is being depressurized by a large window fan bloiwing out at high cfm. The leaks will appear as high-contrast streaks at the leak point and along the air movement path.

There is clear indication of insulation gaps in the wall (above a garage or basement?) on the upper left quadrant of image #4. If that is above basement, not a garage it appears to have NO basement wall insulation, which is a HUGE heat leak when there is that much above-grade exposure. In image # 5 there's a huge heat leak at the bottom of the wall in the upper right quadrant.

Identifying and tagging the stud bays that are most-leaky can make quick work of retrofit insulating them by packing them out with cellulose or fiberglass (blown from either the interior or exterior, depeinding on location, ease of access & hole repair.)

Most insulation contractors that do air sealing in my area use blower doors and IR imaging to dynamically find and fix the leaks, and will give both the before & after cfm/50 (cubic feet per minute at 50 pascals pressure difference, indoors to outdoors) measured by the blower door. The cfm/50 numbers aren't essential to doing the job, but it's one way the contractor can prove they actually fixed something that wasn't necessarily visible or obvious.

Dana offered a great suggestion in doing an existing building energy usage analysis. If you don't want to work the math with a sharp pencil, please feel free to use our calculator:

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Existing_Building_Energy_Usage_Analysis_Calculator.html

The associated instructions explain how to use it. It would be very interesting to have before and after building envelope performance improvement results...and comparing these results to the size of your existing heat source.

Posted By wildwolf on 02 Mar 2020 11:19 AM

On a side note, why does the website not work with Chrome? Why is the site indicating it has a bad SSL certificate?

The forums are nearly a decade out of date software.
They're using browser functions that've been deprecated and are looking for certain types of website control that simply didn't exist 10 years ago.

The type of webcert being used is old, possibly expired and essentially legacy.
Moreover, the site isn't using HTTPS to at least minimally secure the connection.

Yes, all sadly true Dilettante... Lack of HTTPS is especially concerning.

I suspect the server hardware is likely that old too as it can take several minutes for a submittal to post. If you click the submit button again during that period you get multiple redundant posts.

You can manually insert HTML code (left carret, br, space, forward slash, right carret, space, left carret, br, space, forward slash, right carret) to create paragraph breaks...but one shouldn't have to...

Okay, I selected a Dr. Energy audit company (I went with Comfenergy from this site: https://www.drenergysaver.com/energy-audit-contractors/virginia.html) to come give us an estimate to fix the envelope. He think there are 2 main issues.



1. We feel slightly colder on main floor around perimeter. He thinks this is due to lack of proper insulation around the top of basement layer (just above concrete blocks where the wood/joists sit on the blocks). There is a minimal amount of roll insulation, but it's probably original and there's a minimal amount of or much of it has shifted and has draft egress points. His recommendation is closed cell spray foam around that perimeter. He said shouldn't be a problem as we have a drop ceiling and they'll be able to access everything except about an 8-10' section where there is a built in tub & shower (literally, 1 of each - dumb design), However, they should be able to get the nozzle TO the correct location with removing drop ceiling in front of the tub/shower. It'll be more difficult, but still doable.


2. We have lots of issues/air leakage in the attic on the main floor. To name a few: 32 can lights that are not sealed at all (all lights have been replaced with LED bulbs within 2 weeks after we moved in), huge gaps/areas that needed foam board (or any board!) with open areas to main floor below. Half of the attic space covered with good level of blown insulation (15-18"), but you can see a LOT of it is discolored. He stated this is evidence of drafts (as it then turns the insulation into a 'filter' like an air filter in an HVAC system. Saw quite a bit of mouse tunnels & some droppings as well (he showed me as well). 1 area behind the newer (2008 furnace) you can literally FEEL hot air coming up behind it where the duct work isn't sealed properly, so I'm literally heating the attic directly. We saw what looks like it could be snake poop in the insulation above the garage. (I've elected NOT to share that with the wife....).



What he recommends for #2 is 1 of 3 choices: All include: Suck out all insulation, walk entire floor of attic floor, put rockwool thermal insulation barriers over all the can lights. Tear off all the crappy duct work insulation and seal with closed cell foam.


1. locate every 'hole' and egress point to main level, seal with closed cell spray foam, spray foam all the rockwool barriers around can lights to seal them, then add fresh/new/correct amount everywhere of blown insulation.


2. spray foam all the rockwool barriers to seal, plus cover with about 1 inch of closed cell foam over the entire attic floor between joists, ensuring to cover everything - then use an appropriate amount (less than #1 option) above of blown insulation.


3. spray foam all the rockwool barriers to seal, plus cover with about 3 inches of closed cell foam over entire attic floor between joints, ensuring to cover everything, and no other insulation would be necessary. He said the closed cell foam across whole attic floor at 3 inches would seal and insulate everything and main floor envelope would be outstanding. He did offer to do a blower door test. At this time, I elected not to have one. He's preparing the quote and I want to see the 'damage' of those 3 options first. He did tell me that option #3 would be "well over $15K" (note, I also elected to have him do same thing to the unheated garage, and below the unheated screened in porch which is an unheated 22' x 6' storage room in the basement with a GOOD door seal - but the porch is metal and beneath it (in storage room in basement) is steel. I figure if he seals that up with an inch or 2 of closed cell spray foam, it just makes the envelop that much better.



I should get the estimate probably mid to late next week. I also sent him a follow up email - waiting for reply: I did mention potentially replacing upstairs AC unit (built in 2008) with new air source heat pump - it could use current stuff in attic per quote coming from HVAC guy...), and I wanted to know if I liked THAT estimate, shouldn't I have that work done BEFORE they cleanup/foam seal the attic so I don't have to have repaired foam done later after it's all sealed up? Based on what I saw, the attic alone is likely responsible for 75% of our heat loss, and I'm just an average guy who this time believes what I was shown and issues I can see. Before I have any actual work done, I will get a blower door test done, and 1 after for comparison.

The can lights at least, can be remedied easily.
They man insulated enclosures that you simply set over them and screw down.
If you have bracing to go around, you can box the fixtures in with board insulation, THEN cap it off. Just watch your clearances.

Also, if your sprayfoam contractor has leftover product within your allotment, and you have any rough-framed stairs, or access to the underside of stairwells.
If you have any creaks, this is a great opportunity. A pass or two with spray-foam will basically glue/bond EVERYTHING in the stairwell together. Which should reduce or eliminate stair creaking.