power transmission losses
Last Post 29 Nov 2010 06:36 AM by judas. 7 Replies.
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judasUser is Offline
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10 Nov 2010 01:33 PM
ok .. basically i am looking for some numbers :) i am 200% behind local made power preferably home based power but at least community base. the commercials about wind on the plain / solar farms in the south west powering homes in the city .. i 'KNOW' that power transmission has losses but not sure how much. if you have any answer  thanks :)

(sorry about the rant LOL) i would say solar/wind on homes(and commercial roofs) to mitagate the consumption, even though SOME people say that this cant cover use most people can put enough panels/small wind on their roof to cover more than their consumption)  and muni /regional small scale nuke with co/trigeneration to carry the base load with local coal/gas/trash(biomass).. possibly multi-fuel with co/trigeneration to respond to any surges. everyone one says not in my back yard but if they choose this they can pay more if they want to. i want to see seabed wind off NYC and LA and florida


......... long story short power should be a part of city planning along with industrial. because soon(relatively) we will have no choice.
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10 Nov 2010 04:44 PM
The transmission losses from power-plant to the load are a function of the number of transformers and miles of wire between them. In a minimum 2- transformer system short-haul it's on the order of a 3-5% loss, but on US type grids with averaged long-haul losses it'll be more like 7-8%. Wtih overloaded/underbuilt developing-world grids or the north American grids in full brown-out mode the transmission losses can exceed 20%(!).

With distributed mini & micro generation the transmission losses stay well bounded. But with intermittent sources like solar & wind that have only modest correlation with grid loads at best there needs to be some other more controlled sources to keep the grids stable. Denmark, the Netherlands, and Germany are achieving a remarkable fraction of renewable grid source power without resorting to centralized control, but to boost it well beyond 50% there needs to be a responsive grid-stabilizing power source. In Germany the utility Lichtblick is taking it that extra step with centrally controlled distributed home/building sized VW-powered gas-fired mini-cogenerators and thermal buffer tanks (to store the thermal output until there is a local thermal load in the building.) Their goal was to get a full nukes-worth of cogen on the grid in short years as a means of "hardening" their wind resources regionally. This works better in heating-dominated Germany, where grid load and heating system load rise and fall pretty much together than it might in other situations. Distributed gas-fired fuel cell banks such as Bloom Energy's offerings could do a similar hardening in cooling dominated climates.

Solar phovoltaic has a reasonable correlation of output to air-conditioning loads, but unlike with cogen/space-heating there's a phase shift of a few hours between peak output and peak load. Smart-grid control at the load could mostly realign that with pre-cooling based on real-time weather modeling, but SFAIK there hasn't been a big push to make every air-conditioner & chiller smart-grid enabled to pull that off. (Works great on paper though.)

Micro-wind on rooftop sucks by almost every measure (effiency, cost, output, reliability), but mid and large sized wind is quite reasonable where there's a resource. In the US the Great Plains wind is great, but it requires lossy (and non-existent) long-haul transmission to get it to the loads. Offshore (particularly on the eastern seaboard) the prospects of placing the wind farms nearer the load seems more plausible, but it's more expensive to develop land-based transmission lines than under-sea cabling. Roughly half the capital cost of large scale wind is in large scale transmission line development to bring that power to where it's used. Unlike solar, or cogeneration, wind has no reasonable correlation with specific load peaks, but over a wide enough region has a reasonably predictable & stable output. If/when it's necessary to ramp up a big fossil burner or nuke to carry the load IS possible to schedule in advance.

Cheaper (and quicker to develop) than any of it though is buying efficiency at the load end. Unlike massive rooftop solar, mitigating consumption with EFFICIENCY is often cost-negative, paying for itself in reduced utility costs over fairly short time frames, but energy use isn't near the top of most consumers' agenda when making capital investments. Getting grid operators to pay for the investment in the customer's equipment requires a fairly big shift in the regulatory environment, and an increased awareness on the customer end. A fairly decent academic/economic analysis of that problem can be found here: http://www.rmi.org/cms/Download.aspx?id=1366&file=E08-01_NuclearIllusion+(1).pdf&title=The+Nuclear+Illusion

Viewed from lifecycle costs, the net present value of efficiency investments blow any sort of generation source investment out of the water, but the time frames of the customers who use/own the equipment are much shorter than a typical utility's investment, and since energy costs are a small fraction of most business & family situations, it's a back-burner item. Incentivizing utilities with profit margins for money spent on rebates on higher-efficiency customer equipment has been (sorta) working in CA & MA and a few other states, but that's just the first thin-skin of the onion for what should be mid and long term financial sensible. It's also arguable that Germany's 30cents/kwh (wholesale) incentives for renewable power ISN'T financially sensible, but it gets the projects built (an fast!). The average RETAIL rate for power in the US is less than half what Germans pay their solar PV operators wholesale. This is not an easy nut to crack without raising the price of energy.
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11 Nov 2010 03:48 PM
Dana, you should write a book! You practically have already, on this site.
judasUser is Offline
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12 Nov 2010 09:17 PM
indeed efficiency is the first step but elimination is not possible i am acquiring a ~6 acre property if its not a swamp in the spring and i found a 2kw(not at 40mph speed) turbine(and cheap) that looks promising. i am coastal region mile 1/2.and bonded rolled out solar as its feasable. and a DIY drain back solar perhaps to supply warm/hot water. should atleast limit the lifetime energy consumption. i want to farm most of the land that i can and have a few tasty creatures sharing the property as soon as i figure out what ones will get along in the field a couple pig tillers and chickens and a couple muscovy ducks and or turkeys. but thats off topic but as much efficiency and sufficiency as possible. the plan i found for the ICF house is quite nice IMO and bonus area for off the books apartment shh. and get the land listed as ag land

and thanks for the reply .. dang upto 20%

PS and i am in maine .. need much heat and co-gen would be awesome . atleast for a industrial area look at the cogen in NYC for how long 100 years if it went away there would be riots and its even colder here
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15 Nov 2010 03:35 PM
If this is new construction DO look into designing it to PassiveHouse standards- there's long-term value to having almost no heating/cooling loads. If these guys up on Penobscot Bay can do it- you can too: http://www.gologichomes.com/blog/tag/passive-house/

Reducing the load to next-to-nuthin' is cheaper than active solar or wind to support the loads of more typical R-values. R40 would be the minimum recommendation for coastal ME if you're intending to to heat it mostly with solar, but R50-60 would make the design easier.

Unless it's at the top of a hill with reliable sea-breezes, don't expect to get much out of micro-wind. I've yet to see a New England residence where a sub-5kw wind turbine produced more power per lifetime $ than the same money spent on $10K/kw photovoltaics. To make wind pay off it takes both a reliable wind resource, and some real distance above ground level. Even with 100KW turbines can be difficult to make the numbers & siting work- it gets easier with megawatt behemoths & large towers. For 2kw systems, well...
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21 Nov 2010 12:15 PM
well the plan so far is (waffle) ICF, with 2 inches of foam from Foam Insulation Outlet, located on the north end of lot with trees beyond it large high gain windows doors roof windows(in the 12 inch SIP) so low heat needed but it gets hella cold and windy and long dark spells in the winter .. but given the wind data it fals most the time in the effective area of the cheap turbine ~1300 2kw probably another 500+ to get it up there ham radio tower or DIY tilt up mono pole
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21 Nov 2010 01:36 PM
Transmission loses depend in how much you want to spend. A very high voltage DC system has less.
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29 Nov 2010 06:36 AM
the ~1200$ turbine with DC charger/controller is 48 volt my idea was using it for DC (leds prefered) lighting mostly so when the power goes out it wont be dark for a whiile at least and perhaps figure a way to dump excess onto the grid if there is any. i am well aware that a 10,000$ turbine will never get to paypack unless subsidized .. alot and running at peak levels constantly. and the higher the mast to get better wind the more it will cost up front making the pay back harder
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