Sun Painting
Last Post 16 Jun 2014 06:29 PM by TLP. 11 Replies.
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15 Jun 2014 07:18 AM

I like this AZ builders solution to overheated summer mass and solar glare through windows with interior and exterior "reflector decks". I just got no idea how you make a scaled down "gnomon ( 1/4 tall match stick"??)" model, put it in the sun to see how the sun is acting on it? Is that a new or existing home model below the SUNDIAL upper left? I'd like to know how he deflects water off the upper window sills with those exterior "reflector decks" draining water right at them? Perhaps a grilled gutter I can't see well in the pic to the cool looking rain trap water falls that can be seen from inside, he has a cistern storage under the garage floor. This builder is the cheet!  .....my new idol. Why pour ugly toxic concrete when we can pour beautiful earth at a lower cost. He uses fly ash and magnesium binders instead of portland cement to cut his carbon foot print down. 

Kitchen 1

Kitchen 2

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15 Jun 2014 02:00 PM
I have no Frerking idea why anyone would seriously propose using a sundial and building scale models to understand day lighting these days? I imagine that computers and math are not in Frerking's vocabulary. Frerking is essentially advocating 1960s technology as being ground breaking to solve a problem that we routinely solve much more accurately and quickly using computer software.
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15 Jun 2014 03:37 PM
Wait just a cotton chicken pickin minute I was born in 1960 are you saying I'm old as dirt? It fathers day go easy on me will ya, my kids 24.

I'm getting ready to model a design and I was thinking of using sketch-up maybe pay $600 for the pro-version....do they have a plug in? What software are you referring to? Can I build a 3D model orientate it and see the reflective light and glare those "reflector decks" are producing or not? I think I can produce all my structure and mechanical drawing's with pro not sure yet.

It be nice to see a CFD model the thermal mass effects to but that is probably asking too much nor would I trust it. I been around enough modeling to know sometimes old school is the best school.

I see some architects are still building scaled down prototype models out of paper, etc. I know your not big on those. I'm use to using a plastic process called "fused deposition modeling" aka: Rapid Prototype. I designed some production HVAC parts in 2012 of some very complex curves that twisted in a tight space FDM handled no problem when other machine or composite lay-ups would cost a fortune, or can't handle the curves. I worked with a supplier in the town I plan on building in. It is real cool since you can have a touchy feely part in less than a day and a good idea of what the design actually looks like. The software or firmware scans the 3D model in .005-.007 increments then sends the info to a CNC head that has plastic from an cartridge like ink printers have building the part with heat and pressure jets. Limit is 24x36x24". The plastic gets laid down like spaghetti noodles. Alot depends on how the part is "grown" for grain direction and strength. Parts use to be brittle but with better plastics not anymore, they are being used as production part these days. One guy I see on u-tube is trying to build an entire house out of FDM. Perhaps my old buddy will cut me a good deal once I have a model. New version of Chief Architect exports to FDM file format. Then I can have some fun in the sun

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15 Jun 2014 07:14 PM
Yes, happy father’s day! Likely the 1950/60s were the most creative and productive period for this country…and it has been all downhill since then…

These days, most architectural firms that build scale models for clients, use 3D printing to do so. Scale models are useful for showing clients (who are not fluent in reading construction drawings) what a building will look like before it is built. Most architectural design tools will create the required CAD database suitable for 3D printing.

There are a multitude of ways of accurately visualizing building day lighting. Sketchup is a popular free tool. Sustainable by Design also has several nice free fenestration solar visualization tools. We use Chief Architecture for doing our 3D building renderings and construction drawings. Chief Architecture has spectacular 3D day lighting rendering capability, but it is quite expensive and has a steep learning curve too.

However, if you are designing a passive solar building, you need more than a 3D day lighting rendering tool…and certainly more than a sundial and a scale model… You need software that can accurately determine the actual building hourly solar heat gain rate (given the building's location, orientation, roof overhang design, local terrain obstacles and fenestration location/size), the thermal mass solar hourly heat absorption rate (given the thermal mass characteristics), the thermal mass hourly heat release rate (given the thermal mass characteristics), and the actual building hourly heat loss rate (given the building's location and construction characteristics). Once you have all these heat rates accurately math modeled, you can use computer numerical integration to determine what the building temperature will be if a supplemental cooling/heating system is not used…and/or properly design a supplemental cooling/heating system that will maintain the desired building temperature.
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16 Jun 2014 04:56 AM


There is software out there that will handle the thermo flux loads(without math models or hand calcs) and design accurate as the user and model calibrations to test and field data, I have used before, it is just VERY expensive, $50-75, 000 for the three licenses...design, fem, cfd my business cannot afford. Each license would take a min of 6000 hours to get beginner proficient at. I have 50,000 hrs + on design around 6,000 on CFD/FEM since I have access to people that specialize in it and I am too busy designing vs doing design support analysis. I know enough about cfd to do basic prelim then get the pros for final sign-off.

A good builder can get around all the r&d cost by having a plan to test and size the envelope when complete. Actuals are best and I bet most building mass do not do extensive complex analysys. We see alot of mass builds out there we can  figure what will happen....most homes in cold climates with 3 or less ACH are not getting below 60F. Same with hot like this home needing no AC generating more power than it uses. If we are just talking mini splits and a few lines no biggie, pex and HR put run the lines.Some designs we can run in open chases.

Sailorette, what do think that curved reflector panel below the clerestory windows looks like, a bull nose of a wing that throws more glare into the domed ceiling instead of at it? That be difficult to math model those flux loads accurately.....Also, how does one make those curved wood rafters? Punched steel, hmmm, less conductive more relective than aluminum but harder to punch or draw cost wise, and paint it white. I never seen those reflectors to take down glare in any home. Got to watch the guys in the SW they deal with alot of sun. Copyright too,  use a different material or grade of steel.




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16 Jun 2014 10:51 AM
Right, that’s precisely why we developed our own software several years ago for designing passive solar buildings. At the time, we couldn’t find any software at any price that was capable of properly accomplishing this task. At the time, most passive solar design "experts" just used simple rules of thumbs for “designing” their buildings and complaints about Spring/Fall overheating were very common and were apparently just accepted as being unavoidable. We found this to be quite amazing since the engineering associated with passive solar building design is relatively straight forward. ASHRAE defined and published all the necessary engineering information many years ago, but it apparently wasn’t coded into any software program dedicated to accomplishing passive solar design. So it wasn’t difficult for us to create the design software that we needed. Of course it helps that we are engineers fluent in both engineering design math modeling and computer software programming. Most of our time was spent validating the software against measurements taken from instrumented thermal mass test specimens (both passive and actively heated).

The effect of this reflective pond is easily and properly accounted for by the ground reflectance coefficient used in our software engineering equations that model the ground terrain surface reflectivity in the vicinity of the building’s solar fenestration. A ground reflectance coefficient of 1.0 is representative of a completely reflective ground surface. A ground reflectance coefficient of 0 is representative of a completely non-reflective ground surface. A coniferous forest has a value of 0.07. Dry bare ground has a value of 0.2. Dry grassland has a value of 0.2-0.3. Desert sand has a value of 0.4. A snow covered rural site has a value between 0.6 and 0.9 (i.e., similar to a reflective pond).

I don't think most folks would be very happy with the reflective glare generated by this reflective pond unless they like wearing polarized sun glasses and lots of sun screen when in their home.  The advantage of having a reflective surface in the vicinity of the building's solar fenestration would be to reduce the amount of fenestration area necessary to achieve a given design heat gain.  Less fenestration area is always beneficial from a heat loss perspective.  The disadvantage would be that ground reflection can be difficult to control (i.e., unlike beam irradiance which is easily controlled by the roof overhang design).  For this climate, I don't think this would be a good tradeoff.
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16 Jun 2014 12:31 PM

Sail, go to the website link I posted in the gallery or recent projects where they explain the domed reflective surface by the upper windows, concave and convex shaped reflective domes above ground by the roof push light in “deep” through the upper windows...has nothing to do with ground deflection through lower windows, they are seeing 30% light much lower than average passive solar designs and even use shades that drop down off the upper refectors in summer.  The upper windows are taking in 70% light.  So if you had a flux load math model you have to figure what the load flux was normal to the domed surface(s) , three in this case, that is not an equal load across the ceiling....that is why on the website they call it too “complex” and go to old school methods.

Take some time to read the website.

You would need more than a passive solar design modeling here. You need a digital mockup of the entire house, paramertized each material with density, thickness, specific heat, surface finishes, conductivity, etc....just to begin to understand the effects of loading those material properties with heat or cool night time air. Once the model is parameterized you would take it CFD and add pressure, convective loops, heat, toxins, CO2, salt, humidity, etc. whatever is in the local atmosphere to get an accurate fluid dynamics model.....the BEST place for that in a hot box. At this point you have a TON of R&D cost associated that needs to pay back on sale. And we have not even started on the Finite Element Model (FEM) stress analysis, how heat or hot/cold cycling is knocking down material mechanical properties or fatiguing over a life cycle, say 40 years. Be interesting to see your math model compared to this guys build and compare to his test results. Perhaps you could teach us both something because I don’t see it happening, agree with him too complex, costly. I’ll probably be getting in touch with him let me know if interested? He probably has some thermocouple reading's off his domes we can see if your model matches? And, or, I run your model and will building in the next few months probably some domes. I'll be using pressure and heat gages to see where I am at and validate some models good or no good.

 

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16 Jun 2014 02:59 PM
Sorry, I don’t see anything new here that isn’t already easily modeled by the software. If you have a good solar irradiance model, its essentially just a simple geometry problem. It all comes down to determining the solar angle of incidence to the glazing for incident beam irradiance, incident diffuse irradiance, and incident ground plane reflected irradiance. It is just as easy to work out non-normal ground plane reflected irradiance as it is to work out non-vertical fenestration or non-true south building orientation. So there’s really nothing new here that needs to be invented that hasn’t already been published by ASHRAE. When folks throw up their hands and say things are too complicated or can be ignored, it is typically because they don’t have the capability or knowledge required to understand and master the subject matter.
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16 Jun 2014 04:38 PM
Well sorry too I don't think your trying to make planer sense out of a complex or ruled surface is any ones " lack of knowledge required to understand the subject matter" but yours, yes we see alot of you making that statement out here. I'm sorry you'd like people to believe you have ALL the answers and no questions but, I see right through it you obviously don't!! ....I like to see the temps you come up on the steel surface per square foot of the copyright design within +/- 1F I'll call and verify? Model something up and show me the model or calculations. I imagine the answer is as usual, 'you don't train people' well with me don't consider it training since I probably been around this much longer than you. I just for once like to see all this "Engineering" you say you can do all over this site? Here is another thread you produced nothing on but, just criticism of everyone's "lack of knowledge but yours"? It is getting old! First times I seen you post you accused people of posting to get "their post count up" I really think that is what you do to promote Borst Engineering as the God of Building Science and calculators you all dreamed up. I ask for a homes with proven test results and the typical answer is "we don't provide that either" DO you all produce anything other than making yourselves, or should I say trying to make yourselves, look better than everyone else and calling everyone else stupid???....common get real! I'm sorry I looked on your site and do not see homes, moreless ones that are any where near the level of the ones I posted????? Thermal mass sizing and heat gain analysis $150/analysis...your kidding right? You even claim ORNL does not know what they are doing, you correct mounds of hot box testing and field results, along with correcting the best in HR heating and cooling on and on.....WOW!
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16 Jun 2014 05:13 PM
Sorry I can’t make you happy TLP.

If you really want to get educated on this subject, you should consider getting a copy of ASHRAEs Fundamentals Handbook. In particular, you should consider studying Chapter 14, “Climatic Design Information” which describes in detail the subjects "Calculating Clear-Sky Solar Radiation" & "Transportation to Receiving Surfaces of Various Orientations". Chapter 13 “Indoor Environmental Modeling”, contains what appears to be your favorite subjects, "Computational Fluid Dynamics" & "Multizone Network Airflow and Contaminant Transport Modeling". Chapter 15 “Fenestration”, contains the subjects "Determining Fenestration Energy Flow", "Solar Heat Gain and Visible Transmittance", "Shading and Fenestration Attachments", and "Daylighting".

We didn’t invent this stuff. We just took the time to master it and properly apply it to modern passive solar design.
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16 Jun 2014 05:45 PM
I got no idea why you think I need to educate myself on subjects I have been engineering, practicing, and building around this country the past 30+ years. I guess it is your way of looking superior to everyone again. I suggest you study the difference between planes, ruled surfaces, and compound curvature surfaces, back to the geometry basics and let me know when you build a house as nice as the one in the OP completed last year. Until then stop acting like a know it all, your obviously not!
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16 Jun 2014 06:29 PM
If anyone wants a good understanding of the build I posted it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out we contact the builder and get some real practical knowledge vs a bunch of crap some ASHRAE committee or some know it all calculator and engineers dreamed up. I was just wondering if anyone else had real experience with these reflectors as in a home they built with real results. This builder already put builder and engineer together, no need to go back to theory: Read his design-build page...


http://www.michaelfrerking.com/design.html
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