Matcartier
New Member
Posts:34
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| 25 May 2018 05:36 PM |
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I have a 9.28kw roof mounted PV system with a Tesla Powerwall 2 up and running at my home in southern MA. Production started last mid august. If anyone has questions about the powerwall system or its connectivity and ability as a back-up feel free to ask.
Mathew Cartier |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 25 May 2018 08:54 PM |
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I personally couldn't care less about using a PowerWall as back-up but would be more curious to know if the system has the hooks to be able to participate in an aggregated demand-response program where the utility might even pay you for dumping power into and/or retrieving power (within limits) from the battery. SFAIK programs for aggregated distributed resources don't exist in MA (yet), but the demand response market in the ISO-New England grid region won't even begin until next Friday. I would expect that well within the lifecycle of a PowerWall distributed resource aggregators will be participating in the regional demand response market as it evolves.
In the PJM grid region aggregators have been using water heaters as virtual powerplants, paying homeowners $100/year or so to use their electric water heater as a power dumps for biding into grid frequency & stability control ancillary services market. Water heaters are nowhere near as flexible as batteries, and only provide single direction energy flows. In Denmark smart battery charging systems allow electric vehicle owners to participate in ancillary services markets, earning the EV owners €1000/year or more for 2-way power flows. In the UK Nissan is setting up similar systems projecting they would earn the average Leaf owner £350/year for plugging in regularly. It will be awhile before that sort of thing arrives for EVs in MA, but I would expect a stationary battery the size of a PowerWall 2 to be able to pay more than an intermittently plugged in EV, since it has more value to the grid operator by virtue of it's always being there. |
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arkie6
Veteran Member
Posts:1453
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| 26 May 2018 02:22 AM |
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Posted By Dana1 on 25 May 2018 08:54 PM
...In Denmark smart battery charging systems allow electric vehicle owners to participate in ancillary services markets, earning the EV owners €1000/year or more for 2-way power flows...
How freaking expensive is electricity in Denmark that they can justify paying EV owners €1000/year for 2-way power flow? I don't pay €1000 ($1165) per year in electricity for my all-electric 2000 sq ft home. |
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icfbound
Basic Member
Posts:120
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| 26 May 2018 04:33 AM |
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Because Denmark is a progressive country that advocates renewable energy resources and knows that man made global warming is real. |
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CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
<br /> <br />
Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
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Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
<br /> <br />
Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
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Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
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Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
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Trumpian: A narcissistic and skilled con artist Republican who is highly attractive to suckers and uses Fascist and Nazi tactics and commits traitorous acts to undermine democracy to gain personal wealth and power. |
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Matcartier
New Member
Posts:34
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| 26 May 2018 01:34 PM |
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It was more feasible price-wise for me than all the hoops I'd have to jump through for a standby generator...
It was promised to be able to dump power back into the grid to take advantage of time of use power programs but that "update" hasn't happened yet... I'd hope that with that change would also allow the grid to tap its stored power whenever the grid required... much like they can change my central air settings when they feel necessary..
Trying to get a handle on these space breaks.... |
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Matcartier
New Member
Posts:34
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| 26 May 2018 01:34 PM |
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...and apparently failing... |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 29 May 2018 06:02 PM |
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Posted By arkie6 on 26 May 2018 02:22 AM
Posted By Dana1 on 25 May 2018 08:54 PM
...In Denmark smart battery charging systems allow electric vehicle owners to participate in ancillary services markets, earning the EV owners €1000/year or more for 2-way power flows...
How freaking expensive is electricity in Denmark that they can justify paying EV owners €1000/year for 2-way power flow? I don't pay €1000 ($1165) per year in electricity for my all-electric 2000 sq ft home.
Energy costs in Europe (any country, all types of energy) are quite a bit higher than in the US. In Denmark residential retail electricity is ~€0.30/kwh (about USD$0.35/kwh) , which is pretty similar to prices in coal-heavy Germany, 50% more expensive than in nuclear-heavy Sweden, but roughly twice what they pay in the Netherlands.
No country in Europe (even the eastern block) have electricity prices lower than the US average, let alone than in the lower-priced parts of the US.
About 1/4 of the retail price of electricity in Germany is directly from subsidies paid for renewables, the dominating factor of which has been in the form of feed in tarriffs (FITs). Germany is just now reaching the 20 year mark at which some of the ridiculously high FITs from early policy support subsidies are getting ready to expire, which should moderate the retail electricity prices in Germany, even with continued build-out of the renewable generation, and the retirement of the nuclear fleet on the last day of 2022. I'm not sure how it breaks down in Denmark.
Denmark is the world leader in offshore wind technology, but even at the lower cost of current state of the art equipment that wind power is still pretty expensive compared to running an already existing nuke or hydro in the TVA or BPA regions.
In Germany some of the now 20+ year old wind farms will no longer be worth maintaining without their (expiring) FIT, since the equipment is worn out and far less productive than current model equipment. But the cost of NEW wind power has fallen so much that many their onshore wind parks can be economically re-powered with newer taller higher capacity factor equipment with state of the art blades designed for local wind characteristics. Within the same real estate footprint one can double the annual power output with fewer turbines, at a fraction of the lifecycle levelized cost of the equipment that was available in 1998. Some of those wind parks may just close, but most will probably be re-powered at a much lower subsidy level & cost. |
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rykertest
Basic Member
Posts:202
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| 29 Jun 2018 03:19 PM |
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Posted By Dana1 on 29 May 2018 06:02 PM
Posted By arkie6 on 26 May 2018 02:22 AM
Posted By Dana1 on 25 May 2018 08:54 PM
...In Denmark smart battery charging systems allow electric vehicle owners to participate in ancillary services markets, earning the EV owners €1000/year or more for 2-way power flows...
How freaking expensive is electricity in Denmark that they can justify paying EV owners €1000/year for 2-way power flow? I don't pay €1000 ($1165) per year in electricity for my all-electric 2000 sq ft home.
Energy costs in Europe (any country, all types of energy) are quite a bit higher than in the US. In Denmark residential retail electricity is ~€0.30/kwh (about USD$0.35/kwh) , which is pretty similar to prices in coal-heavy Germany, 50% more expensive than in nuclear-heavy Sweden, but roughly twice what they pay in the Netherlands.
No country in Europe (even the eastern block) have electricity prices lower than the US average, let alone than in the lower-priced parts of the US.
About 1/4 of the retail price of electricity in Germany is directly from subsidies paid for renewables, the dominating factor of which has been in the form of feed in tarriffs (FITs). Germany is just now reaching the 20 year mark at which some of the ridiculously high FITs from early policy support subsidies are getting ready to expire, which should moderate the retail electricity prices in Germany, even with continued build-out of the renewable generation, and the retirement of the nuclear fleet on the last day of 2022. I'm not sure how it breaks down in Denmark.
Denmark is the world leader in offshore wind technology, but even at the lower cost of current state of the art equipment that wind power is still pretty expensive compared to running an already existing nuke or hydro in the TVA or BPA regions.
In Germany some of the now 20+ year old wind farms will no longer be worth maintaining without their (expiring) FIT, since the equipment is worn out and far less productive than current model equipment. But the cost of NEW wind power has fallen so much that many their onshore wind parks can be economically re-powered with newer taller higher capacity factor equipment with state of the art blades designed for local wind characteristics. Within the same real estate footprint one can double the annual power output with fewer turbines, at a fraction of the lifecycle levelized cost of the equipment that was available in 1998. Some of those wind parks may just close, but most will probably be re-powered at a much lower subsidy level & cost.
Thats an interesting breakdown. Thanks for posting that.
"The more you know" |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 25 Sep 2018 01:17 PM |
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I agree --scotland is full of wind farms both on and offshore and the regularity with which them breakdown is not good --I have no doubt when FIT feed in tariffs run out most will be just scrap--
hydro is the way we should all be going both in the mountains and tidal flow --2 tides a day means 4 times a day there is a flow through turbines --hot cold --windy or not windy |
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Dilettante
Basic Member
Posts:494
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| 25 Sep 2018 10:56 PM |
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Posted By scottishjohn on 25 Sep 2018 01:17 PM
I agree --scotland is full of wind farms both on and offshore and the regularity with which them breakdown is not good --I have no doubt when FIT feed in tariffs run out most will be just scrap--
hydro is the way we should all be going both in the mountains and tidal flow --2 tides a day means 4 times a day there is a flow through turbines --hot cold --windy or not windy
The main issue is that most of the world doesn't have the geographic resources for hydro in this fashion. Also, in terms of tidal-flow hydro, some form of energy storage is indicated. As the tidal flows don't neatly coincide with demand peaks. So it can't be counted on for baseline/"brown" power.
Granted, Scotland is probably IDEALLY geographically suited for reservoir-based power storage (burn tidal power to pump water uphill, then, when needed flush the water through turbines to get most of the power back). At this point, outside of modest installations, battery-based power storage isn't really feasible. From a cost perspective AND from a logistics/capacity/price perspective.
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 07 Oct 2018 08:56 AM |
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we got any amount of good hydro or tidal sites in and around scotland --big tides 30ft --just the big money has convinced the politicans that wind is better -quicker return --but long term with maintaince I doubt it. the river DEE close tom e ins/w scotland had 4 hydro stations on it built in 1934 and still running -uses the same water 4 times in a 20 mile stretch of the river .at tenby in wales they narrowed the river at its mouth ,not blocked it in about 1500 and,built a tide powered corn mill --so if it worked then with simple water wheels it has to be the way now,4 changes in tidal flow direction EVERY day -has to be a winner - |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 07 Oct 2018 09:08 AM |
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in the early 60,s they built a pumped storage at lock Awe near Oban --to use the excess nueclear power made at Doon Ray at night --now the clever wind men are proposing that might!!! be the way to store excess wind generated power --doooh--definately a homer simpson moment cos they got so many damned wind farms ,so much that when it really windy the power companies cannot use all the power --so they pay the wind farms to turn them off!!!!--and pay for the energy they would have made so it does not overload the transmission lines and what really upsets me is that they have only been built because of the 20 year grants and also built by EU countries not scottish ones--who signed those deals with such clauses in them ? politicians with lots of shares in those companies bottom line is they should have been only done on straight forward commercial grounds or a lot shorter contracts --maybe time to put in an offer for the scrap value in 20 years . which idot did the calculations on the power line capacities --that should have been the limit for number of wind farms--no common sense once a profit is seen to be had |
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Dilettante
Basic Member
Posts:494
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| 09 Oct 2018 10:40 PM |
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Posted By scottishjohn on 07 Oct 2018 09:08 AM
in the early 60,s they built a pumped storage at lock Awe near Oban --to use the excess nueclear power made at Doon Ray at night --now the clever wind men are proposing that might!!! be the way to store excess wind generated power --doooh--definately a homer simpson moment cos they got so many damned wind farms ,so much that when it really windy the power companies cannot use all the power --so they pay the wind farms to turn them off!!!!--and pay for the energy they would have made so it does not overload the transmission lines and what really upsets me is that they have only been built because of the 20 year grants and also built by EU countries not scottish ones--who signed those deals with such clauses in them ? politicians with lots of shares in those companies bottom line is they should have been only done on straight forward commercial grounds or a lot shorter contracts --maybe time to put in an offer for the scrap value in 20 years . which idot did the calculations on the power line capacities --that should have been the limit for number of wind farms--no common sense once a profit is seen to be had
Yeah, it's a case of putting the cart before the horse. Then throwing a JATO rocket on the back... They're basically running headlong into wind power without thinking about a lot of ancillary things. Like power storage. Because turning off expensive, time-constrained power sources because they're "generating too much" is STUPID. PAYING to do it is Idiocracy levels of 'tarded.
Especially in a place like Scotland that has HUGE resources for pumped hydro storage.
Most of the northern lochs within spitting distance of the coast should just have "DURACELL" stamped on them. You could power the entire damned island that way.
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