We are building a very large icf home in NJ and are planning to use double hung, double pane fiberglass windows.  I am leaning toward using Robert, which I was informed is now Permaglass.

Since I  don't know anyone who has used them, I would greatly appreciate any information on experience with the company and product.  We have about 70 windows in the house, so cost is definitely a factor.

Accurate Dorwin and Serious Windows came in too expensive (Serious probably because they only offer triple pane). I am also considering Inline, Milgard, Fibertec, and Comfortline.  It is very hard to decide being there is really nowhere local to look at these windows.  Any advice is greatly appreciated.

There are only two of the five on the list I would consider. Read the other topics, read customer reviews, check performance especially service issues since you are going at it alone. Hunt=Robert=Permaglass which was just acquired by Norwood...  four name changes in the past five years....Caveat Emptor....

Your advice is quite vague, if you could be more specific on which two you would consider, and what is wrong with the others, that would actually be quite helpful.

Sarayale

First of all you should do your due diligence and research them all. Search blogs and other websites...Some companies are just terrible while others are good...Research performance, customer service, price, options etc...

I really do not like to promote any window but will point out flaws which are obvious...

However, if you email me with a specific question about a window/company I would be more than happy to help. [email protected]

Btw your first choice tries to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear....hint.

Sarayale:

I live in Fairbanks, Alaska and I'm building in Western NC, a Eco-Panel SIP home with Serious Windows. I looked at 3-4 other manufacturers and have done over 2 years of research on energy efficient, green or healthy-built home building. Bar none, Serious Windows are the tops, and they do provide many different windows, not just triple pane. I chose 925's, I have 50 in my house and 15 in my garage/apt.

When I priced out the competitor's, Marvin wood/metal clad was the most next costly, the difference was $4K. For the energy efficiency of Fiberglass windows, to me with that small cost difference especially with my high energy efficient SIP/geothermal home, I found no other window that could compare, especially fiberglass except ones manufactured in Alaska. I'm spending the money on my envelope and cutting out the "extras", because we do not know what the price of oil will be in the future.

It took me a while to find a dealer, but I did find one by calling the Serious Window Headquarters in CA, the dealer is in Chattanooga, TN, Joe Martin, LEED AP, an architect who's as passionate about energy efficiency as myself. If you want to talk to someone, who's not a going to "sell" you windows, but help you decide what is the best choice for the building you're trying to create, I recommend you contact him at [email protected].

Sarayale:

Check out their comparison chart on all their windows, the difference I found with Serious Windows is the glazing and fill of their windows in comparison to other manufacturer's. There are no triple pane windows listed, the most is double pane, the difference is the glazing and the fill of the windows.

http://www.seriouswindows.com/performance-specs/seriouswindows.html

Thank you so much, Martyrh. I had ruled out Serious because a dealer told me they only had triple pane and I did not want such a heavy window with a lower visible transmittance. I double checked due to your post and he called the window a triple pane just because it has some extra film in between, but is is really a double pane.

 I am now reconsidering these windows. Your information was truly helpful. I also sent Joe Martin an email and will discuss further with him, in case he can supply, even if we are far away.  Your response is very much appreciated.

My house will be icf and we also plan on using geothermal, so we are also concerned with minimizing energy costs. Have you started building yet?  I have a good friend in Anchorage named Alan Green, in case you know him .

We are in the early stages of planning a house about 2 yrs. from now, after we sell our current house. The general idea of the plan is about 2500 sq. ft., reasonably well insulated with passive solar and 7 to 8% south facing windows. Also plan to have an insulated monolithic slab to serve as the thermal mass. FYI, we are in south central New Mexico at about 7,100 ft. Heating degree days 5,500 - 6,000 in and around the Sacramento Mountains. As I write this it is about 12 degrees outside. Two days ago we traveled to Santa Fe and met with some good folks at Williams Windows and Doors, who carry not only Serious windows, but some others like the German-made Unilux. Bottom line: we probably will go for the Serious lineup. FYI, so far a rough idea of a cost scale is as follows: Base - Anderson 200, U = .46 to .50: 100; Serious 725, U = about .2: 185; Serious 925: 205; Unilux two-pane, Ultra-Therm, U = about .2: 215; Unless something changes, it looks like we will choose Serious for our new house. Regards, Steve

Steve-

Are you saying that the Serious Windows 725 series is $185?  What size and type? 

Thanks,

Brett

Hi Brett. No. I am using the 185 as sort of an index number. For example, if a given set of Andersen 200 windows cost $7,000, the Serious windows would cost about $6,000 more, or 85% more. Steve

OK.  I thought that was pretty close to impossible.  Thanks for clearing things up.

Brett

The U-values that Serious is publishing is fantastic but please note that with these great performing windows comes with a compromise, mainly the Visual Transmittance. Anyone's who ever looked through one of these units with a VT of 0.29 knows what 'm refering to, you can hardly see through them.
I'd be curious to find out what their warranty is, specifically related to the mylar film. When most glass companies are pushing past 20 years and beyond, would you take a chance @ 10.

Hello ADC. You make a very good point about the VTs. I am looking at mostly their Serious 725 windows with center of glass VTs = .73 for their "Serious Glass 5" option. Moreover I am looking for decent SHGCs for south windows, which I can get at about .56 center of glass. Not as high as I would like, but not bad either. When I saw a sample of the Serious Glass 5 window in a store it looked ok in my eyes. I have not seen one of their windows with VT = .29, like their 925 series. I probably would not like that. Also, fyi, they say the windows have a lifetime warranty where if one goes bad they come in and bring a new window and install it. If that is really the case, it is a very strong warranty. I am still researching things and will dive into things more and more. Regards, Steve PS: I apologize for my words running together on my posts. I have tried just about everything to cure it, but so far to no avail.

Reviewing Serious's perforamnce chart I see that the SG5 has a VT of 50 to 65. Where did you get 73. Also are Serious windows AAMA certified? Thermal performance is only one piece of the puzzle.

Hi ADC. The main documents on their website report full frame performance specs; hence, indeed you are correct when you see VTs 50 to 65. However, buried in their website is a Passive House document that shows center of glass performance specs. -------------- http://index.seriouswindows.com/document-library/func-startdown/90/ ---------------- IMHO, VTs for center of glass are more meaningful to me than full-frame values and that is where I got the VT = .73 value, which translates to a full frame value of .65. Since I saw a sample 725 window with SG5, and it was ok in my eyes, whether it be full frame VT = .65 or COG VT = .73, that is acceptable. Do not know about AAMA certification. On their website I cannot find Serious. But, heckfire, I cannot find Andersen, Fibertech, Optiwin, Thermotech, or Unilux either. Did see Thermo-Tech on the list, which is not the same as the Canadian triple pane maker. To be honest, I am not sure what to make of whether or not a maker is not on that list. I do appreciate your questions about this and look forward to any other knowledge and research you have. Have not made a firm decision yet, since we are so far away and your input is most appreciated. Steve

check into serious windows, they have a fiberglass line. We went with their vinyl line because of cost and are very happy.

I have a modular house and went through - a lot - of pain and added expense to install Alpen (now Serious) windows.  I opted for vinyl because of the lower cost.  Honestly, after a year in the house, I still wonder if it was worth the added expense.

In all seriousness (pun intended), do the math.  While the "super" windows will lose less heat than the usual double pane, argon filled, glass, they will still account for significant heat loss.  I have 32 double hung windows and a slider (double glass with selective film and grids in between with krypton fill), and they account for more than 60% of my heat loss!  I frequently find myself wondering if it would have been more cost effective to get the lower cost windows and purchase a window quilt, or triple cell cellular shades for each.

Despite buying some of the best insulating windows available, my windows are still only R5 (U=.20) versus R3 (U=0.33) of the less expensive windows.  Because of the uniqueness of my project, I was able to work directly with the president and founder of Alpen.  My windows are the best windows they could make, and I could buy, at a reasonable cost.  Sure, they do manufacture some that are more insulating than that, but it will quickly limit your choices (i.e. fixed windows, casement), cost increases significantly (more exotic Xenon gas fill is quite expensive), and the improvement is not drastic.

Sorry if I've muddied the water a bit.  Hopefully you find this information useful.

Regards,
Ed

  

I agree with you as well, Stephen.  Heat gain is a very important factor for consideration.  In my math, double pane, argon filled, low-e windows - never - gained more BTUs than they lost during the winter months in the Northeast US.  Of course, the math works out differently depending on location.

If you want to learn how to do your own calculations read this:  http://www.easternct.edu/energyscience/EES%20305/305_PDF/Heat%20Loss.pdf

I justified the added cost of my windows by calculating the estimated savings from lower heat loss, and the added benefit (savings) from winter solar heat gain.  The idea being that - over time - the better windows will pay for themselves.  How quickly they pay for themselves is largely a factor of your heating fuel cost.

One quick aside - I really feel like it was worth the extra effort of choosing the "right" windows.  On a bright sunny winter day, our entire 3,800 sqft house is heated (to 69-73F depending on outside temperatures) by our South facing windows.  I've been in the house 1 year, and this fact has held true down into the single digits (F).  Imagine... it's 5F outside and the heat doesn't need to come on while the sun is out.  Neat.

Another quick aside - My South facing windows are actually - NOT - up to local building code because they are NOT low-e.  Low-e is required in my area of Massachusetts.  I got around this by proving how these (low U, high SHGC) windows would benefit the house - with no owner intervention.  You'll need properly designed overhangs to block the summer sun and allow for winter gain.

The cat's meow... triple pane windows combined with insulating window treatments or insulating shutters.        

Good luck,
Ed


  

Hello Ed. Good post about the south windows. I developed my own evaluation model in Excel, that is kind of like the RESFEN model using tables from Kachadorian's book "The Passive Solar House" .... Using data for New Mexico, I developed a matrix of heat losses in Btus for combinations of U values and SHGC values. In short, my calculations indicated that a U.5/SHGC .61 window performed approximately the same as a U.25/SHGC .44 window. This illustrates the importance of SHGCs in evaluating windows for passive solar performance for my area. .... My issue is that my wife has vetoed use of the thermal shutters described in Kachadorian's book and also the triple cell shades, like HunterDouglas Architella Duette. Hence, my strategy of higher SHGC/higher U windows plus thermal shades is out! Drat! I am leaning to a window like Serious with U.2. ............. In our current house, with outside temps of 15 to 20 degrees, the sunshine warms up the interior to 65, with U.45 Pella windows, similar to what you described. ...... Be Well, Steve