Price and data on under slab insulations. Commercial high load floor
Last Post 18 May 2017 07:21 PM by The1Tnt. 16 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
fastlineUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
19 Aug 2011 03:54 AM
I am having a hell of a time finding products for under slab insulation.  Looking at comparative charts, it looks like Kansas might require about an R5-R7.  I really need to find out what is out there, a ball park cost estimate, and what NOT to use.  I keep seeing all these moneys selling this 3/8" foil lined crap trying to sell it off as an R-14, etc under a slab.  I have heard about some concerns of critters working over the foam which is a HUGE concern for me.  I have also heard of some doing spray foams but when I priced that stuff before, even as a DIY deal, it is WAY expensive and might not have the cell control required for a good floor. 

We will have several 10-30ton machines on the floor.  Big presses and such.  The machines in action will cause some live loading as well as our CAT excavator, rock truck, and dozer that will come in from time to time.  Cannot afford to have a floor failure.  Please steer me in the right direction on this.  Again, a ball park price for 12,000sf would be great.  At $1/sf, I would seriously have to consider a nogo.  It would take 10 yrs to get that back..  From the data I am looking at and my concerns of compression strength, I am leaning towards 1" of foam. 

We need a stiff floor as well as strong. 

For point of reference, our excavator will exert 15psi on the floor and the rock truck would be rubber tire so approx 30psi.  These are contact psi ratings only so I am not sure of actual loads to the foam.  I can only hope the stiffness of the concrete and bar works to better distribute the load but based on those figures, it would seem a 40psi foam might be required?
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4324
Avatar

--
19 Aug 2011 06:32 AM
fastline; check out geofoam that is used for rouad beds , can certainly be used under slab http://www.geofoam.com/default.asp
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
19 Aug 2011 09:44 AM
There is Owens Corning Foamular 600 which, of course is rated at 60 PSI.

DOW has a HighLoad 60

The slab over does distribute the load so compression on the insulation is not as much of an issue as you think.

Getting an engineer is the direction in which you need to be steered. An engineer could whip that floor design out for you in a jiffy.
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
19 Aug 2011 09:55 AM
Some of the foams form a beam or waffle structure in the slab which increases strength and reduces the amount of concrete (as compared to a flat slab). Post tensioning may also be cost effective.
fastlineUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
19 Aug 2011 10:13 AM
We can handle the engineering side as long as I get all the specs for the foam. I am not sure what rate of deformation is standard for foam psi ratings.

I am primarily trying to find a vendor right now to talk with. I should mention that I will "shop" this stuff. I am having sticker shock for sure.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
19 Aug 2011 10:24 AM
Google this document:

ASTM C578, Types and Physical Properties for Foamular® Extruded Polystyrene

Doing a radiant shop floor?
fastlineUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
19 Aug 2011 10:56 AM
Thanks. That standard was most helpful.

Yes, we are doing a shop floor. Sounds like Lowes sell Dow products. Still waiting to hear back to see how bad the price is. sounds like none of this stuff will be cheap though.

Is anyone here in the midwest and can comment on the R value requirement under the slab? heating degree days I have found around 4000-5000.
arkie6User is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1453

--
19 Aug 2011 01:56 PM
I bought 1" thick Type IX EPS (nominal 2# density with a compressive strength of 25 psi which is similar to XPS foam) for under my basement slab from the local Noark Enterprises in North Little Rock, AR (they are associated with R Control SIPS - google for more info).

http://www.noarkrcontrol.com/EPS/construction-products.asp

This foam I purchased also contained their Perform Guard treatment for termites and other insects. I purchased 4'x16' sheets to reduce the number of seams. The cost was ~$0.35/sq ft.

Type IX EPS has an R value of 4.2/inch at 75F. Also, the R value goes up as the temperature goes down. For R5-R7 you are looking at ~1.5" of Type IX EPS.

You can get higher densities of EPS foam which provide more compressive strength, i.e. Type XV at 3# density is rated 60 psi, but the higher densities don't provide significantly more R value than Type IX 2# density EPS.

http://www.noarkrcontrol.com/downloads/brochure/Foam-Control-EPS-TechData.pdf

Noark manufacturers the foam on-site and can make it any thickness you want. R Control probably has a manufacturer closer to your area.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3039

--
20 Aug 2011 08:26 AM
Yes, we are doing a shop floor.
Is it going to have radiant heat tubing embedded in the slab?
fastlineUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
20 Aug 2011 05:03 PM
Yes, the tubing is most of the reason for the insulation. I did talk with a good friend that is is commercial HVAC designer and he mentioned that they did design work in Greensburg, KS in their large green project and Remember most specs being R4-5 under the slab. I think the consensus was that any more would likely require 10s of years to get an ROI from the reduced heat loss.

I did call Noark and found the best price there so far at I think 28c/sf before delivery. That is for 50psi, EPS with Borite, 1" thick. Still wanting to do some shopping though. This stuff is just not cheap of a 12K sf floor.
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
20 Aug 2011 06:13 PM
Say your soil will bear 3000 psf - that is 21 psi. Not sure that the foam (after sufficient de-rating) needs to exceed the soil strength.
MikeSolarUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:376

--
31 Aug 2012 06:50 AM
Posted By fastline on 20 Aug 2011 05:03 PM
Yes, the tubing is most of the reason for the insulation. I did talk with a good friend that is is commercial HVAC designer and he mentioned that they did design work in Greensburg, KS in their large green project and Remember most specs being R4-5 under the slab. I think the consensus was that any more would likely require 10s of years to get an ROI from the reduced heat loss.

I did call Noark and found the best price there so far at I think 28c/sf before delivery. That is for 50psi, EPS with Borite, 1" thick. Still wanting to do some shopping though. This stuff is just not cheap of a 12K sf floor.
ahhhhhh..spam
www.BossSolar.com
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
25 May 2014 03:25 PM
We have a few million feet of PEX on 25psi XPS and some EPS as well. Some are supporting very heavy farm equipment, but of course it has to do with the PSI applied. 60 psi? Not unless you are placing stamping equipment or the like.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
Arnold12User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5

--
07 May 2017 05:53 PM
good advices
DilettanteUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:494

--
08 May 2017 05:38 AM
I know Owens Corning offers their Foamular product in 40, 60 and 100PSI variants (or a price of course).
http://foamular.com/assets/0/144/172/174/bf64ec70-16f1-4748-abc7-c9dee5100987.pdf

Before you go out and spend a fortune on high-strength foam though, talk with an engineer about the realistic load expectations.
In all likelihood, unless you're going nuts, you can probably get away with standard foam in most use cases.


And there are prefab slab insulation systems out there. But, realistically, if you've got big sheets of XPS/EPS and a knife, you can rough in your own with very little effort. Just use L brackets and corner brackets to prevent the walls of the insulation "box" from blowing out when you drop the concrete in.
If you're worried about termites, talk with an exterminator about prevention measures that can be taken during site prep.
And since you'll want to do it anyways for vapor/radon barrier, put down a 15 mil poly sheathing under the insulation and make sure it's taped up well. This can all be covered in the end by things like peel-and-stick barrier once the walls go up, giving you a nice, solid seal.
PARAHOMESUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:199

--
08 May 2017 09:51 AM
Posted By fastline on 19 Aug 2011 10:13 AM
We can handle the engineering side as long as I get all the specs for the foam. I am not sure what rate of deformation is standard for foam psi ratings.



"Rate of deformation" ? What? One thing you made clear by this statement is you cannot handle the engineering nor can anyone else on this thread. "Rate of Deformation" is done by Von Mises Stress analysis in FEM software that understand the different yield strengths like bulk/shear/compression modulus, cyclic fatigue you'll NEVER find as manufacture data. I suggest you find a GOOD engineer that knows what to look for and not, how to apply very conservative margins since, compression strength is not what drives the primary failure mode, it's deflection and creep most foams don't show good. The manufactures data is insufficient @ creating dynamic structural & thermal/hygric allowables by limited quasi-static lab testing in ambient temps/humidity, any college grad engineer knows that, and most don't understand the dynamic applied loads. So we have an industry with none-to-little tested installation field data and lots of folks that don't know what they are doing, potentially lots of short to long term slab issues. It will keep the concrete rework industry alive and well.
CreathermUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
18 May 2017 07:21 PM
Creatherm. T45 or S45 would be sufficient.
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: janvin New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 34705
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 123 Members Members: 1 Total Total: 124
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement