We' re planning to build a new ICF/SIP based house and do have some confusing information about the steps involved
in designing of our house.
We don't do it for fun, just because of  necessity ( our old house got burned in the recent California wildfire in San Diego)
After reading basic information we figure out that the most economical way of doing it is to hire a designer ( I believe about $1- $1.50 /sq.ft - correct me id I'm wrong)
then hire an engineer to produce a complete set of working plans ( have no idea of his usual rates)

Architects are much more expensive - up to $5-6 /sq ft,  and I have no idea, should I hire an engineer after the completion of his work.

Please, explain to me the most economical way of producing a complete set of plans to start building a house.
I'm talking about all possibilities - working with individual designers and engineers or working with a manufacturer of ICF forms (I have no idea, if any of them  offer a complimentary  design/engineering service).
Thanks a lot

Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. I am under the impression that a designer is trained to give you something that will look good and feel good to live in. They are mostly not trained in buildability, code restrictions, structural, etc. An engineer can tell you how to build a particular design, and a good engineer will tell you how to make some changes to build it more efficiently or economically. However, they are usually not trained to consider what the house looks and feels like to live in. Architects receive training in all of those areas, although not much in residential, and can often even perform the structural calcs for you (as long as you don't want anything crazy). Therefore the step-up in price for each kind. Services of an architect can range from a QC of your plans over producing submittable plans and bid sets for you to doing all including construction oversight. The price you pay for an architect may therefore be lower, if you choose less services and different fee structure. Bottom line, depending on what skills you feel you have on your own, choose the person(s) that give the remaining expertise to your project. Good luck and have fun (even though you're not doing it for fun) :-)

Some builders have stock plans. 

You can get architect designed and engineered plans on the net.  For example:
http://www.healthyhomeplans.com/home_plans/home_plan_detail.php?plan_id=110
is a showcase house with SIPs.  Her site has designs by others also.

A quick Google search will turn up more sites than you'll be willing to look at,
some even had a few nice ideas.

Good luck,
Larry

Most of the points above are so noted, but do not dicount the abilities and qualifications of designers. In general, designers that have spent time in the field getting their feet in the mud have a better idea of how to get from point A to Point B. Most archies have limited field experience because they are not required to do "field time". I have found the ones that have not only have visions and eyes for details, but also then have an understanding of a path to get to the proverbial end.

As a designer, my field background has simplified the task of making projects work, however, keep in mind that some states do require specific sign-offs or "stamp" in order to build. I do believe CA is this way, therefore, knowing what you need to build, you still very well may be able to use a designer, and then have an engineer review the loads and seismic requirements so as to have your bases covered.

Also, many times architects require fees that may seem high for the size of the house. Their time and business costs may need this adjusted fee, whereas smaller, what I term mid-level homes, may not need their services. This is something that each owner/builder needs to evaluate for their project because I've seem many great architect designs, and many great designer projects of every size......I've also seen where both should find another calling, at least in my mind!

Of course, if either simply provides what the client desires, who am I to say it's wrong?

Olegy,

First, sorry to hear about your recent loss. 

I have zero hands on experience with either ICFs or SIPs.  It's definitely an area I've been looking into more over the last year (mostly through reading forums and checking out different websites of the manufacturers), for both personal reasons and professional opportunites (yes.....jobs)

I'm not sure what the going rates are for Designers, Architects or Engineers.

If you go with an architect, yes you will be able to get the entire process done, start to finish, including the stamping (whether or not they do it in house with one of their engineers, or send it out to an engineer).

Your thoughts on (or at least that's the impression I got regarding with a designer/engineer have some definite advantages and disadvanatages.  However, I would not discount any of the above until you thoroughly check out each option, which it seems you are doing.  Would I work with a designer?  Sure,  under certain conditions.

First and foremost, I'd want that designer to have a "structural" background of some sort.  Maybe that means he or she took some architectural classes and knows something about loads, support, sheer, etc.  Better yet (IMO), I'd prefer that that designer actually spent some time in the field pounding nails, being a grunt, seeing how things actually work and making them work properly.  One step further, I'd prefer that they had some of both....hands on field experience and some coursework. 

A "designer" (assuming they are not licensed architects or engineers) will NOT be able to "stamp" a plan for you here in CA.  Is that necessarily bad?  No.  If the price is right, and you get a good service out of them, the original design of the house  (knowing you will have to have additional services from let's say an engineer), then I would go with a designer.  They probably will not want to charge you an arm and a leg.  They will probably be more flexible, because they don't have a "lock" on the project.

Many today, are willing to do stuff in 3-D (in addition to the standard 2D drawings), which is a necessity as far as I'm concerned in today's world.   Looking at stuff from a design point of view, the customer WANTS to see the house in 3D....plain and simple.  If your designer, architect, etc....will not do computer based 3D renderings which can be altered in minutes...I would not waste my time with them (probably).  What I mean by this is that...let's say they give you a set of drawings....you say....I like that....but can you move this window here... enlarge this opening.....move this over there...."if I'm standing here in my kitchen, can you show me what my view will be?", etc.   I, as the customer, would want to be able to SEE it  happen quickly...I would not want to wait 3 days for someone to draw it on paper.   That costs money as far as I'm concerned.   One note...be sure while you're asking for all these changes.....you need to keep in mind that some may not be done easily, or cost effectively if major structural changes need to be made to accomodate your changes.

One possible drawback with going the Designer -> Engineer route is whether or not the designer knows anything about and can design the other, behind the scenes, aspects of the house? Electrical?  Plumbing, HVAC, etc.   An architect will design the entire house, including all these aspects.  Does the designer you want to work with know anything about these or will you have to hire an architect later to incorporate these into the "design" your designer came up with?   In this aspect, you might find your costs going up by the time you pay both a designer and an architect.

Look around, talk to people, ask questions.  Have you seen a house you like?   Do you know the owners?  Maybe stop in while they're building it and ask to meet the architect? 

As far as working directly with an ICF or SIP manufacturer, my first questions for them would be:

- Have you built any houses in my viscinity, and speficially, in my local jurisdiction that follows Codes X, Y, Z?
- If so, can I go look at them?
- Do they offer "engineering" and "stamping" services in California, specifically your locale or do I have to  have those done separately?
- Were there major hurdles to jump through (codes) versus traditional stick building that may cause delays, problems locally?
- Can you recommend more than 1 builder in my area or do you just work with 1?
- How "flexible" are your design services?  Are they local?  Or is it all over the phone/web?
- How much do the design/plan/engineering services run?  How many changes are allowed along the way?  What is the turnaround time on each?  How much does each iteration cost?

You don't see a lot of ICF/SIP construction (yet) in Ca, so these might be some sticky points that need to be checked out more.

One thing I'm not sure about is whether or not you're looking for the same (close) design as your previous house?  A complete new style?  Flat or sloped lot?  Would you prefer a "standard" home that an ICF/SIP builder could show you right now or do you want custom?  etc

I think you'll find there is not 1 "right way" or 1 "only way" to get this accomplished.  There are probably a thousand ways.  It looks like you're doing plenty of homework!

James

Ah yes,

I drew up the 'not so big house' for the Orlando show.

We had it engineered for category 5 winds in addition to using panels from several manufacturers.

 

If you need some SIP plans drawn, let me know. Id be glad to help.

 

Dennis,

Discussion forums and email share the same communication problem:  You don't have any facial expression or tones to place the statements in context.  As a result, I've taken several postings on other boards at face value when they were intended as humor. 

Reversing that same vein:  Although I'd be interested in seeing the not so big house SIP drawings, the sketch you attached makes me interpret your posting and your offer as humor.

Very respectfully,
Larry

The best thing you could do is to contract an Architectural Technologist. This is a person well-versed in construction technology that quite often works within an architect's office. Their duties are pretty much the "legwork" of getting something built. AND they generally get paid by the hour (some more reasonably than others). I'D love to help in any way that I can, but as I'm a student at this time, most of my efforts are focused on that...

C-Pompano, I realize you are new to this site but the bold caps have to go. We have all graduated from high school and if we need Bi-focals we will where them.

Dave

Or you could do the honorable, and probably legal (copyright) thing, and find out the designer/architect and ask them to sell you the same plans at a discount, and hire them to make the tweaks. That way you could get the benefit of the architect's insight and dexperience, familiarity with the plans, and deal with the structural issues at the same time. And not steal copyrighte plans.

Back to your original questions, the usual steps, especially if you are using an unusual material lie ICF's, would be to hire an architect, or if a stamp isn't required for residential, a designer (or a good designer with an affiliated engineer). The point is to get a design tailored to you, to your site, and your budget.

You could also buy an off the shelf plan and get it tweaked to the site, (aso add in the extra costs of that, either through theplan service or a locl architect or engineer). If you have a good builder, or are willing to take on a lot of the detail work, you might be able to get the architect to do a bare-bones plan for permits and take care of the details as you go along, or hire the designer along the way as you need advice. Keep in mind that with current codes and building department regulations, "bare-bones" is not what it used to be. Somebody has to do code review and coordination, structural design, energy calcs, site design, water control, integrate the HVAC, specify materials and systems, and other incidental tasks.

Oh, yeah. Check woith your building department and zoning officials now, to get their take on what you have to provide for permit and construction. It will save you heartache later. Good luck! Really. It is a long process, but you can get a special place for your home if you try.

walltech
iff ve wood no where our bifokals where we wood wear them...
liten up mon....
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[email protected]

No matter who you hire, do your homework and have a clear list of requirements/wishes for your new home. If the look of another home appeals to you, share pictures. This will save you money.

Any plans you do in California with ICF's or SIP's will have to be stamped because they're not conventional construction regardless of how simple or complex they might be.  Either an engineer can do this or an architect if they're capable of doing the calculations that will be required. When we do plans we have one of our engineers we work with review what we generate to make sure it is correct as they do it day in and day out.

There are some good designers and some bad ones just as there are some good architects and some bad ones.  The same holds true on the price they charge.  When we do plans (I'm an architect who is also a general contractor) we have different rate sheets depending on the level of information that is going to be put on the plans.  The more work involved the higher the price is going to be.  One point about design.  There is no free lunch as the saying goes. The more design thought goes into a project the more work is involved and the higher the cost will be.  If you want a square box there are plenty of architects out there who will be more than happy to pop out a set of plans for a low cost.  If you want something that is more, then it's going to cost more.

When comparing cost one wants to make sure they are comparing what services are being provided for the money.  If one is going to be putting the plans out for bidding one should make sure that there is sufficient information to be able to intelligently compare the bids.  This is why specifications are important to include.  There is a world of difference between the least expensive window available and the most expensive one out there to give one example.

Oftentimes it is worth spending a little extra money to design a structure specifically for the site, taking the time to analyze the site the structure is going to go on to take advantage of the site features when designing the structure.  This is where stock plans can be a real drawback as you end up having the plans dictate the process instead of the site doing so.  When designing the structure one should take into account the view, the orientation, the space hierarchy desired, and the most important factor, what does the client want and need to make their house truly a home.

In addition to ICF's and SIP's for a different style of construction rather than conventional construction there is also a type of construction that is gaining in popularity and has some wonderful properties associated with it.  These are PISF's which stand for Pre Insulated Steel Framing building systems.  This type of building system uses EPS foam sandwiched between cold formed steel framing.  It has very high insulation values, is hypo allergenic, green, goes up fast and can take any type of finish.  When the final costs are added up the costs associated with it are close to that of conventional construction.  With some thoughtful detailing this type of construction is very fire resistant.

I noticed your post because my company is in San Diego.  If you want to discuss your project PM me if you can via this website or post back on here that you tried to do so without success and we can discuss what your goals and budget are and see if we can maybe work together to have a successful project.

No offense Capt Pompano, but driving around to pick a house design based on "curb appeal" is tackling the problem backwards, unless your clients drag the sofa down to the end of the drive and spend their evenings admiring The Edifice. For those of us who live in our homes, the goal to create a space that meets our needs and, hopefully, nourishes our souls. Good architects earn their pay meeting basic and spiritual needs. Designers answer basic questions for folks who know what they want. You only need an engineer if the local code official (or architect or designer) tells you that you need an engineer. That said, if all you want is a fire resistant version of your old house, I'd skip straight to the engineer and strike a deal that gives you finished plans. (This assumes that you have accurate dimensions.)

Or try cloud computing. Google Sketchup is a powerful 3-d modeling software that allows you to build a house and view at it from all angles, inside and out. The software also has an Internet link to a 3-d warehouse with downloadable models designed by thousands upon thousands of other Sketchup users (the cloud), including architects. The search term "California house" has 894 hits. "Passive haus" has 101, a few of which are stunning: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=656b199e06d80fcd585f737d31db3195&prevstart=36

Very cool link on sketchup model sharing Todd, it does seem that many have to reinvent the wheel much of the time designing/building a home.