I'm planning on building a timber frame house in the near future and have started drawing the plans for it. I am trying to find the best way to finish out in between the timbers. I thought about SIPs, but after some estimating on the cost, I'm trying to come up with some other cheaper suggestions. I haven't looked into hay bales much yet but plan on researching it soon. I was wondering if anybody had some good suggestions for a cheaper yet efficient way to close off a timber frame shell. Thanks.

I am not an expert on timber frames, and have no specific knowledge of your situation. However, from what I seen of timberframe pricing, I would think that the SIPS envelope cost would be fairly insignificant compared to the cost of the frame. If money is a factor, maybe you should consider some form of hybrid system, rather than putting all your money into the frame and then nickel and diming the insulation.

Im building a TF in the spring. The frame is done. I am building the envelope outside the frame so the entire frame is exposed vs between.
You will see numerous posts here and elsewhere looking for a lower cost equal to SIPS. I started wanting SIPS due to the R value/air infiltration factors.
The cost and subs steered me to look at alternatives. Im pretty close to deciding how I'll finish it after looking at options.
Im leaning toward larsen truss walls and SIP roof wrapping the TF with blown in DENSE cellulose for wall insulation.

The more posts I see regarding people looking for SIPS alternatives the more I think how busy they would be if they were 20% less. Im guessing if the manufacturing costs allowed for that reduction it would have happened already though. It is a great product.

Mark

BTW, I agree completely with Wes. The TF is basicly a zero factor in reducing the cost of finishing the balance entire home. It is awesome and I am glad Im doing it but it is pretty much a redundent waste of money in terms of the cost of completing the rest of the home. There are cheaper overall ways to make a unique home unless like me...you gotta have a TF. Mark

Cablebob 1,

Hay bales will rot.  You might want to consider using straw bales instead.  The general rule is:  If there is enough food value in it for an animal to eat then it will rot.  No food value in straw.

I am a timber framer. If you are not going to use SIP panels to finish out the frame, then there are many alternatives. But the big rule is all the insulation must be on the outside of the frame. If you do an infill system (between the timbers) you could have a condensation issue on the timbers, and the timbers can rot; depending on where you are building. In some areas this is not so much of an issue, but where I am in the Northeast, it is.
Instead of the SIPs, you can put layers of rigid insulation on the outside of the frame with 2x framing around the doors, windows and corners, this is called wrap-and-strap, and it has the same advantage of the SIP of creating a completely sealed envelope. Or, you can build 2x walls outside the frame and use spray foam insulation. If you are looking at 2x framing, I would recommend using the SIP panels for the roof, it will actually be more cost effective than building up the roof to create enough room for a high R value.

Annemarie
Legacy Timber Frames
Stillwater, NY

Wes,
I am 16 years old planning my first home now. Trying to build it debt free and off the grid. I'm attending a timber frame class with some friends in a couple of months so I will have the skill. I also have part ownership in a saw mill. So I'll be taking white oak logs off my property and milling them and timber framing them myself. So the timber frame for me is very cheap, just lots of time. Once I have the shell built, then I need a cheap way to dry in the building.

Mark,
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into those. I was also planning on enveloping the outside and not going between. If I do all this work and spend all this money, I want to get the most out of it. :)

Alton,
Thanks. I meant to say straw bails. Yeah, I wasn't planning on using hay because I've been reading the same thing you just said.

Timbermom,
How would you go about attaching drywall to the strap and wrap system? Would you still have to go with the T&G plus drywall, if you want a drywall interior? I'm wanting the entire vaulted ceiling to be T&G but I want some of the exterior wall to have drywall on them to all a little bit of color to the home. Also, how does strap and wrap pricing compare with other methods like SIPs? Thanks for the info.

-Caleb

Wes,

Good for you! You will really enjoy cutting your frame. A tip on cutting oak, cut it green and sticker it so it doesn't twist as it dries but allows air to flow all around it. Cutting dried oak is like trying to chisel rock.

A way you can reduce costs to insulate as well is to use seconds, especially if you are looking to do the labor yourself. Most SIP companies will sell them, and also there are places you can get "recycled" rigid insulation, which is really insulation that isn't perfect or has been returned.

Here is a slideshow and description of a Timber Frame House built in NC.

Email [email protected] if you have any questions.

http://www.synergybuilding.com/custom-homes/energy-efficient-timber-frame-home/

Wow. thats quite a shanty !!
Mark

Thanks! We're very proud of that project. Timber frame homes are great, both esthetically and energy wise. Using SIPS for the roof system makes lots of sense to me. It provides a straight forward, relatively easy way to build a strong, very energy efficient roofing system for a timber frame structure. The cedar ceiling was installed on the panels and finished prior to having the crane set them. Figuring out the cuts, and the wiring for lighting, and ceiling fans was easy compared to doing the SIPS on the wall portions. Communications with the manufacturer regarding door and window cuts.........and dealing with mistakes and changes made us decide that in the future we would look for an alternative system for the walls. Two good options would be to stick frame the walls, and insulate with spray foam. (maintain superior R-value, plus have a great moisture and air barrier) Or - consider AAC block. You can see and read about one of our projects with this on our blog as well. (www.synergybuilding.com) It's another product that has both superior structural and insulating values. With stucco , and a thin coat on the interior, it can serve as both exterior and interior finished surfaces too.

synergy,
Maybe you should consider buying blanks for your wall panels and cutting your own window and door openings, rather than having them precut. Takes a little more time, but costs less to purchase the blanks, and your craftsmen have control of the final layout. Its not that hard to do.

I am building a full structural Timber Frame in the spring as well. We will be framing and insulating the exterior walls with the frame exposed to the interior. I will be framing the exterior walls with a 2x6 top and bottom plate with 2x4 studs offset inside/outside and then using a 2 lb closed cell spray foam for a continuous monolythic seal. I will also be foaming the roof deck as well. The cost savings by doing this will be an astonishing $25000 cheaper than using SIPS panels - this does not include the savings of electrical rough ins etc. Cheers, Kevin

So its your 1st post...name is "EnviroFoam"...do we assume you priced your own job or were those independent prices you got ?

I think SIPS are overpriced personally...but we need a little more explanation on  your "EnviroFoam" cost results.

Pretty bright bunch your hanging with here BTW.

Mark

We did have one entire wall that came out with mistakes on the window and door cuts.......so we had blanks sent,  and it wasn't really difficult to install -  just time consuming, and a process our framers weren't used to.   My question would be what's the comparative advantage between spending the time cutting up blank SIPs, and getting subs used to a new process, vs just using spray foam.  Time is a major factor in SIPs marking sense on the roof- but what's the advantage on the walls?   My guess is that it's not less expensive.

Posted By EastMark on 24 Feb 2010 07:08 AM
So its your 1st post...name is "EnviroFoam"...do we assume you priced your own job or were those independent prices you got ?

I think SIPS are overpriced personally...but we need a little more explanation on  your "EnviroFoam" cost results.

Pretty bright bunch your hanging with here BTW.

Mark

Yes...it is my first post, but not my first time around these parts. And yes, my username is EnviroFoam! I see by the looks of things that your name is EastMark...pleased to meet you Mark (I presume). I actually purchased a spray foam insulation franchise based on the costing and research that I did for my own home...not to mention my many years in the building industry. Here is an example of a cost comparison (at retail) for the roof deck of our new Timber Frame home. My SIP package was going to cost me $48000 installed, but to frame the roof complete with 2 x 10, sheet and spray foam (at retail) would cost $32,000. That is a $16000 savings on the roof system alone. I'm happy to see that there is a bright group of people on here...I hope that you wouldn't treat someone different, just because they are a newbie to the site. Thanks Mark...for the warm welcome:-) Cheers, Kevin

Wow! So SIPs are 50% more costly than "sticks and spray insulation", in connection with a timber frame roof installation? Are other timberframers finding this to be the case? SynergyBldrs seems to know what they're doing, as as evidenced by the photos that they shared with us in an earlier post on this thread. I wonder if they spent that extra 50% on SIPs for the roof of this project?

The timber frame home we built was completed in 2004.  It was done in concert with an owner / architect who specified the system he wanted.  He was very detailed in his plans,  and price was certainly a consideration in everything that was done.  While we did not do a price comparison with spray foam, I would be very surprised if at that time there was much difference in the price between standard blank SIP panels,  and using a closed cell spray foam system.   Our experience is that spray foam costs have come down substantially since then.

I was very shocked at this price difference too. A couple things to note with my plans is that my roof system is very complex, the panels would have been pre cut and we live up in Alberta Canada. These items have some bearing on the price difference, but this was my experience.

Cheers, Kevin

Kevin
What is retail on spray foam when you compared this for your roof and what thickness did you go ?
We are seeing about $1 per SF per inch here in the northeast. It really hasnt gone down here.
Mark