Steel building with living quarters---How thick should the exteriors walls be? How about Overhead doors?
Last Post 19 Mar 2011 11:15 AM by BadgerBoilerMN. 9 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
Texas GirlUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
08 Mar 2011 08:53 AM

I need experienced input regarding the best insulation and exterior wall design… Quickly!

We are about to start an 80x50 steel building in North East Texas. In the future we plan to use a little over half of it for housing, therefore the complete plans must be completed for the plumbing rough in. I have drawn the plans myself.

In the beginning, 4-1/2” walls were planned for most of the exterior walls while covering the columns and utilizing the purlins for shelves on the inside. We planned to put 4" open cell foam insulation in walls and ceiling with and extra 2"under the roof of the future living area.

Just this week it has been suggested that the exterior walls need to be at least 8 inches for energy efficiency.

I need experienced input soon because the foundation should be started in about a week and based on what I am being told I need to do some major shifting in my house plans.
How thick should the exterior walls be in Texas (this past year 105 degrees high in summer---18 degrees low in winter)?
What should the wall configuration be?
Should there be just air space in the configuration?
Should there be additional insulation on top of foam? If so, what kind?
Where should the studs be in relation to the exterior steel sheeting?
What size studs?

(Note there is normally a 2x4 right angle steel plate placed around the building floor and the exterior steel walls butt up against the 2” side and the wall is attached there. We were considering using a treated 2x4 instead and using those boards as the bottom of the framing, then framing the walls with 2x4’s then having open cell insulation blown in to the edge of the frame then putting wood, corrugated metal or sheetrock depending on the room of the house.)

Another question: with 4 overhead doors in the shop area should the doors be insulated from the factory or foam be added when the wall insulation is added?

cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4327
Avatar

--
09 Mar 2011 07:56 AM
I would avoid using purlins for shelves as you will create tremendous thermal transfer at that point and complicate the wall construction.

I would use SIP walls and roof independently from stucture inside, you could remove the purlins then re-attach exterior skin to the SIP wall in order to save space

Insulated door would help but if the rest of the non-living area is uninsulated then it really does not matter
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
wesUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:810

--
09 Mar 2011 08:08 AM
Typically, the steel floor angle is aligned with the outside of the sidewall girts on a red iron steel building. So your idea of replacing with a treated 2x is not likely to work for your needs.
The most common way of finishing a steel structure is to build 2x4 walls to the inside of the steel wall elements. Then plumbing, electrical, and insulation added to this in the traditional method. I would consider adding a commerical rolled insulation to the entire building package and then add additional insulation to the living areas.
Also, be aware. Standard steel buildings are not designed to carry the loads of a traditional drywall ceiling assembly. Especially, if the building is designed for the southern US roof load standards.
Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4327
Avatar

--
09 Mar 2011 09:34 AM
 Also, be aware. Standard steel buildings are not designed to carry the loads of a traditional drywall ceiling assembly. Especially, if the building is designed for the southern US roof load standards.
Wes is right and if you build an independent structure inside it will not need to indure any wind load requirements because your exterior shell is already doing that

PS;  you can design your PEMB to carry additioal loads but will dramatically drive the price up 
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
FarmboyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:356

--
09 Mar 2011 02:48 PM

We constructed a 30x55x11 metal bldg on top of a concrete slab in south central Kansas.  Wood columns, girts, trusses and purlins.  REsponses below are based on our experience over the past 3 years.

"...4" open cell foam insulation in walls and ceiling with and extra 2"under the roof of the future living area..."

We had 3" of Icynene open cell sprayed directly on wall and roof metal.  No venting, so we operate a dehumidifier as needed.  When temps reach 100 degrees+ outside, it rarely gets over 92 degrees inside.  Temperature difference between 6ft and just under the roof deck is usually about 4-6 degrees.  So good call to insulate.
   In early winter, ground temp under concrete slab keeps inside around 40 degree when at freezing outside.  Late winter and lower temps, it's not hard to keep inside 34-38 degree with a 1500watt heater.  Has to work a bit harder when we hit single digits and sub-zero.  Unfortunately, we weren't up to speed on heat loss thru slab edge otherwise we would have insulated slab edge somehow. 

"Just this week it has been suggested that the exterior walls need to be at least 8 inches for energy efficiency"

Is this for the living space area or the bldg overall?  I think you could get by with less for bldg walls and then insulate your independent interior structure.  Which is what we did for a 15x15 efficiency apartment we built inside our bldg.  We built 2x4 walls and insulated conventionally with fiberglass including above the ceiling.  Basically the bldg insulation creates a buffer zone for the interior room.  We use an 8" cube heater which kept our room at 70 degree even when it was -5 degrees outside.  We do run a dehumidifier to maintain 55-60%.

"...with 4 overhead doors in the shop area should the doors be insulated from the factory or foam be added when the wall insulation is added?"

If  you spray the walls and ceilings, insulate the doors.  I did our two 9x11 overhead doors using 1.5" pinkboard and foam adhesive which made a huge difference in noise suppression and wind infiltration.  I wil add horizontal braces to stiffen them even more.

Considerations:
1.  Insulate slab at edge to reduce heat loss/gain.
2.  Find out if bldg will be built to agriculture (will leak) or residential (will leak less) standards.  Take a look at Fabral's installation guide   http://www.fabral.com/downloads/details-postframe.pdf
3.  Paint foam with white or light colored latex paint to provide a bit more reflectivity.  Use oops paint from big box stores.
4.  If you will use bldg windows and doors to access the livings quarters, address how to flash well.  We've had continuing problems with cheap slider windows that wind blown rain can infiltrate thru and around.  We were told "Well, it is only a shed".!!!
5.  If you don't vent, be sure to address humidity.  I would think the building supplier would address this with you.
6.  If you are in an area that doesn't require inspection, then be especially vigilent in making sure the builder gives you what you are paying for.  You don't want to wake up at 2 AM because it's starting to rain and you have to get up to see if the roof or windows are leaking again!!

Good luck,  Dave

FarmboyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:356

--
14 Mar 2011 11:19 PM
Texas Girl, How is your bldg design coming along? Dave
Texas GirlUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
17 Mar 2011 01:23 AM

THANKS so much for All your suggestions.   I have been so busy with all the different aspects.  The pad is being build with the possibility of the forms being set on Friday. 

I have decided to go with 8" walls.  We will have the foam insulation blown in then the studs. 

I have tried to do research on how to insulate the around the edge of the slab.  Can that be done by just moving the dirt up close to the slab?

cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4327
Avatar

--
17 Mar 2011 06:20 AM
Posted By Texas Girl on 17 Mar 2011 01:23 AM

  Can that be done by just moving the dirt up close to the slab?

code requires a minimum 6" from slab to finish grade, this keeps moisture / water away and more importantly termites.

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
FarmboyUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:356

--
17 Mar 2011 02:25 PM
Not sure how your columns are attached to the slab, piers or what, but here's a document with drawing to give you a concept of approach.  Maybe you can adapt it to your bldg.  http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls...nology.pdf
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2010

--
19 Mar 2011 11:15 AM
When insulating steel buildings including our own, we use high density foam is structural, water proof and the perfect vapor barrier. All the floors are radiated, so XPX is used below and at the edge of the slab (treated for termites in TX) and the tube stapled to the insulation. Upper levels are radiated with European style steel wall hung radiators with minisplits for cooling and dehumidification. Naturally an ERV must be use for IAQ in very tight residential construction.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 305 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 305
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement