I enjoy reading things on this forum. It has helped me in this design phase of building a mountain home. Originally I was very interested in SIPs. While I still think they are good, the mountain home complications have pushed them away. These complications are: high cost, transportation cost, and difficulty in modifying the design after they are made and delivered. ICFs have their own complications, the primary one being long travel distance for the concrete trucks. So, my first question relates to using ICFs only for the base of the structure, like a single level of ICFs. Can I mix my own concrete in a mixer on site and fill the ICFs 1 or 2 at a time myself? The ICFs would surround a SIPs subfloor. A post and beam structure inside the ICFs would support the flooring. This would support a OVE wood frame. The OVE frame would have MgO panels on the exterior (fire protection is important). Does this seem plausible? Are there things I am overlooking?

Man that's a lot of hand mixing. I did an ICF crawl space myself in the mountains, three courses high. I think it was 8 yards, 1 large truck full.
In fact he missed a gear on the way, and I had to hand mix about 5 bags of redi mix. (slopped out of truck.)
The cement came from about 65 miles away. ( 1.25 Hrs.)
I just had them put a retarder in the mix, worked great!
I would do it that way again.

Thanks whirnot.
If I only used 1 level, that might be about 2-3 yards. That would take a couple days by hand with 1-2 helpers.
The engineer for my mtn property says I should get the cement delivered dry because otherwise the strength is compromised.
Since I have a decent mixer, and mixing my own would give me some flexibility in completion, I will investigate further. I will contact a local ICF mfg and ask.

Regarding using SIPs for flooring, I am wondering if they can sit right on compacted road base without floor joists. Then would the OVE framing sit on the ICFs and SIPs?

The post and beam structure would support the roof, not the floor.

Maybe you can find an engineer who will tell you what extra measures you have to take to overcome the weakness of all those cold joints.

I think the ready mix companies can dry load a mixer and start the mixing on site when water is added. If a mixer can get to the site, how "remote" is it?

"Remote" is packing out 80 lb sacks of dry mix 30 miles to a site where there are no roads. 8 packhorses X three 60 mile round trips takes a week, barring complications. 24 sacks and some gear on the first trip, 32 sacks on the second and 40 sacks on the third. Luckily, water was available on site.

Thanks ICFHybrid

Yes, remote is a vague word. I may be 30 miles from the nearest town, and have a half mile long steep driveway, but I don't need pack horses. I know a cement truck can make it up the drive.

I will speak with the engineer, but I find knowing the right question to ask is harder than understanding the answer.

When you say "cold joints", do you mean the wood that may run inside along the intersections of each SIP? I am not knowledgeable about the flooring SIPs. I saw one link that had 8' x 20' as the longest floor panels. Differing densities of foam are also a variable. I did not see anything showing how to use both SIPs and ICF's.

You get a "cold joint" when concrete is not one continuous pour. It loses its strength when what is supposed to be one continuous pour is made up of lots of little mixes.

Thanks for the input. I may not pour a slab or use ICF's, but I will have a cement truck pour a grade beam to support the house. I am thinking I will bury a skirt of insulation around the exterior perimeter to prevent thermal bridging.

http://www.greenbuildingsolutions.org/Main-Menu/Home/Modern-Materials-Archive/Answering-the-Challenge/Frost-Protected-Shallow-Foundations.pdf

The only thing I would add to the above document is that the garage/unheated design can be used with heated homes by adding vertical insulation outside the wall. IMO, this hybrid design is the best of both, has no thermal bridging (unlike most ICF foundations) and can support a single, monolithic, thickened edge pour.

Gary, Where are you building at? I am currently building a sips mountain home in Montana for a customer on a very difficult job-site. The road to the home is 20% grade and there is only about 10 feet of working space around entire structure. Currently i have helped install the sips walls and this was a 2 day job. They are now framing the enterior walls and roof supports. I will return to set roof panels and this should take two days. The owner priced many different sips companies and found that Thermocore of Missouri was on average 25-30% less than other companies and included everything in there bid. NO HIDDEN CHARGES! This mountain home was also engineered for 180lbs per sq. ft. snow loads! If you would like to consider sips again and like a bid e-mail me @ [email protected]. I would love to help and be a part of building your new mountain home.

Thanks BadgerBoilerMN, jonr, and Thermo. The pdf specifically addressed some of my questions, especially the photo showing a trench lined with EPS and rebar. I can do that myself with just a couple helpers, and have a cement truck fill it without using forms to hold the concrete. I will approach my engineer to prepare for submitting plans for the permits.

The property is 26mi N of Westcliffe CO on the N edge of the Wet Mtns (7600ft elevation), 10 mi east of the Sangre De Cristo Mtns (7 fourteeners).
The building site is now roughly 100ft(ExW) x 50 ft(NxS). The N edge of the site is 6 ft deep in the granite mtn. The S edge is 15 ft above the natural slope. It has a well, septic, and electricity to a former garage now workshop.(hopefully turned on prior to Thanksgiving).

Yesterday I googled MgO panels CO, and got a posting on this site with a CO phone number. I called it and got another number leading to a contractor in Denver in progress building a SIP panel house. He uses only US made MgO boards!! I will visit his building site in the next day or two. MgO 4x8-4x9 boards are 1$/sq ft. SIP panels with MgO are 6$/sq ft.

Now I feel much more comfortable about proceeding with a floor plan. I have been playing with different ideas for about 10 years now. When I bought the property it had a house that had burned down. I would not have considered buying the property if the house was still there. It was 100 ft from the garage (no elec in garage). It was a rectangle with long side oriented NS with a big tall chimney on the S. The entry was 10 ft above ground. This summer I hired an excavator who dug my electrical trench work to the garage (150 ft) and busted out of the old basement to the S. Now I will use the garage as my workshop, and use the old basement as a garage. Then (next summer) begin building a good passive solar house.

My mission this week is to finish wiring the worshop and schedule the rough-in electrical inspection. Then it will be hardcore planning through the winter.

Thanks again.

Insulation specs and heat source would be my main concerns. I found out that propane does not like to light off above 8000ft.

Most of the homes near my property have propane tanks and/or wood for heat. The prior house on my property had a large propane tank before creosote started the fire. The fire took out the propane tank.

I don't need or want to go there.

My heat sources will be passive solar and solar hot water.

Insulation specs is a good concern. Thanks.

I do know a few recycle places where I can get foam at bargain prices. Since specs are an important issue, I will add it to my checklist of questions for the recycle suppliers and the engineer. The engineer is an older man who has been involved with more than 80 homes in my immediate area. Although he has not yet visited my property nor charged me $, he has given me good advice. I just don't want to waste his time on unnecessary questions.

Posted By Gary Olsen on 17 Oct 2012 11:18 AM
Most of the homes near my property have propane tanks and/or wood for heat. The prior house on my property had a large propane tank before creosote started the fire. The fire took out the propane tank.

I don't need or want to go there.

My heat sources will be passive solar and solar hot water.

I talked with fire fighters out in AZ and they said they really dislike rural homes that have propane tanks. During a forest fire the propane tanks are ticking time bombs and the fire/heat will make them explode and cause injury or death, not to mention fuel the fire.

Some people bury them in the ground but it depends on local code because in ground you have the risk of rust and leakage.