To me the application of a heat pump to make a vent less clothes dryer is obvious.   Here in the USA there is not one available!   In Europe there are over a dozen models & I'm trying to find one I can somehow get.  I can find a study jusiifing the status quo by some "brains" at a university in California.  But the facts are simple it takes less than half the energy to dry clothes with a heat pump IGNORING the heat lost by 200+ CFM of forced ventilation.  I'm frustrated then I find this:
 http://www.top10.cn/news/67/36/Heat-pump-driers-50-energy-saving-potential.html
In Switzerland selling the energy hogs we're forced to use is ILLEGAL.

Miele makes one, my friend has one.

Condensing dryers are not necessarily heat pump dryers, there is a big difference in both price and performance.  The condensing dryer without heat pump uses ambient air to cool the moist air (heated by resistance heaters) and results in considerable warming of the room air and little efficiency improvement over a vented dryer.  Their drying speed is not better than a vented dryer.   OTH the heat pump wastes little heat to ambient and uses NO resistance heat just the heat provided by the heat pump which is simultaneously cooling the warm moist air to condense the water. & offers better performance (shorter drying times) than vented models  The heat pump version uses significantly less energy than resistance heated dryers AND wastes no building heat with forced ventilation.  Meile makes both ambient air resistance condensing dryers and heat pump condensing dryers.  So far as I can tell they do NOT market the heat pump units in the USA & have no 60 Hz models.  All heat pump dryers are condensing dryers but not all condensing dryers use heat pumps, some usually in combo machines use air to water heat exchangers to cool and resistance to heat other non heat pump condensing dryers use air to air heat exchangers for cooling with resistance heat.  Only the heat pump offers substantially lower energy use and usually higher performance as well.

15 year payback (per the article) means that the NPV is negative. And that's IGNORING the alternative of using nat gas (far less expensive than electricity).

The article is written by defenders of the status quo. It completely ignores the HVAC energy use to condition the air vented by the vented dryer. It overstates the cost of the heat pump option. Assumes constant energy costs & more in short it's BS. A recent DOE study concludes the payback is under 5 years and it uses constant energy prices. DOE used more recent costs based on Europe's prices.

Posted By jonr on 09 Oct 2012 10:42 PM
15 year payback (per the article) means that the NPV is negative. And that's IGNORING the alternative of using nat gas (far less expensive than electricity).

I understand the concept of "payback" or ROI when it comes to energy efficient products but there is a serious flaw in that thinking. That was the view/mindset of car makers & car buyers here in the USA. Why should we (GM, Ford, Dodge) make a fuel efficient vehicle when gas is $1.75 a gallon? Why should I buy a fuel efficient vehicle when gas is $1.75 a gallon? The US consumer ended up buying cars that got 15MPG average. It wasn't until gas prices rose that the mindset & marketing changed for both manufacturers and consumers.

Why should we build energy efficient homes when electricity is 11 cents per kWh (for now) and natural gas is so inexpensive (for now)?

This mindset will also change when prices for energy skyrocket. Unfortunately, what do you do with the millions of inefficient homes? A car has a lifespan of 10 years. A home has a lifespan of 100 years. The inefficient car eventually goes into the junkyard but a home is around for a long, long time. The homeowners are stuck paying high energy bills and the powerplants (nuclear or coal) are using or burning more energy to keep up with the demands.

What is the payback for nice tile floors, or granite counters, or for that big screen TV?

Not everything we do & buy in life is based on payback/ROI. If our mindset changes, then the market will change and energy efficient products will become more popular and less costly. There should be a happy medium between energy efficiency & ROI. If more people demanded energy efficient dryers, the market would cater to that.

Posted By Liebler on 09 Oct 2012 05:48 PM
To me the application of a heat pump to make a vent less clothes dryer is obvious.   Here in the USA there is not one available!   In Europe there are over a dozen models & I'm trying to find one I can somehow get.  I can find a study jusiifing the status quo by some "brains" at a university in California.  But the facts are simple it takes less than half the energy to dry clothes with a heat pump IGNORING the heat lost by 200+ CFM of forced ventilation.  I'm frustrated then I find this:
 http://www.top10.cn/news/67/36/Heat-pump-driers-50-energy-saving-potential.html
In Switzerland selling the energy hogs we're forced to use is ILLEGAL.

Europe has been on the forefront of energy conservation & engineering. I believe the Swiss were using triple pane windows back in the 80's. Here in the States we are about 20-30 years behind the energy curve to most European countries like Switzerland and Germany.

When I was a kid, solar clothes dryers were all the rage. They used zero energy (well, Mom burned a few calories) and the clothes had a nice smell, too. In FL, they passed a law to protect people's rights to line-dry clothes, as apparently some communities had outlawed the practice.

Posted By jdebree on 10 Oct 2012 07:01 AM
When I was a kid, solar clothes dryers were all the rage. They used zero energy (well, Mom burned a few calories) and the clothes had a nice smell, too. In FL, they passed a law to protect people's rights to line-dry clothes, as apparently some communities had outlawed the practice.

Most modern day HOA communities have made outdoor clothes hanging against the rules. I also remember back when I was a kid and hanging clothes on the outside line was common practice. The one problem was November - April, it got too cold to hang them outside.

Why should I buy a fuel efficient vehicle when gas is $1.75 a gallon?

Dunno. Because there might be things more important than money?

In FL, they passed a law to protect people's rights to line-dry clothes, as apparently some communities had outlawed the practice.

I'm trying to think if there might be a reason for outlawing outdoor clothes drying (other than personal, cultural or socioeconomic insecurity). Maybe outdoor clothes drying attracts wild animals or underwear predators or something like that....

I wonder if everyone in a city line-dried, would it help counteract the heat island phenomenon?

Here in the States we are about 20-30 years behind the energy curve

Americans have an addiction to subsidized (when you look at all the costs) energy prices. The solution is to charge for all the hidden costs, which would make it expensive enough that there would be much more conservation.

In the mean time, always do a ROI analysis on all energy saving options and pick the best ones according to whatever criteria suits you best ($, environmental damage, inconvenience, foreign dependence, etc).

Posted By ICFHybrid on 10 Oct 2012 09:15 AM

In FL, they passed a law to protect people's rights to line-dry clothes, as apparently some communities had outlawed the practice.

I'm trying to think if there might be a reason for outlawing outdoor clothes drying (other than personal, cultural or socioeconomic insecurity). Maybe outdoor clothes drying attracts wild animals or underwear predators or something like that....

I wonder if everyone in a city line-dried, would it help counteract the heat island phenomenon?

I think some folks just don't want to see My underwear, even if I'm not in them!

As far as the heat island effect, I would guess it would to an extent, as it would block sun hitting the solid surfaces, at least a little.

I'm sorry but I see absolutely no reason to consider ROI! I'm 70 years old, if I want to spend my kid's inheritance on sustainable practices or energy efficiency I WILL! To me energy efficiency is motivated by social responsibility.

I think some folks just don't want to see My underwear, even if I'm not in them!

Ha Ha. If that is the only issue, then maybe this calls for some community underwear standards.

If our underwear was regulated, no one would have a problem with anyone else's and we could go ahead with the line-drying.....

Posted By ICFHybrid on 10 Oct 2012 11:18 AM

I think some folks just don't want to see My underwear, even if I'm not in them!

Ha Ha. If that is the only issue, then maybe this calls for some community underwear standards.

If our underwear was regulated, no one would have a problem with anyone else's and we could go ahead with the line-drying.....

But then you have issues coming up with the standards. Given, you don't want to see Rosie O'Donalds thong, But would you want to restrict say, Giselle?

Sorry, for The Hijack.

I'm joining Liebler's choir. I would also like to be able to purchase a condensing clothes dryer that utilizes a heat pump. Sigh.

OH, I agree with Liebler 100%. I have looked all over to find a ASHP dryer. Panasonic just came out with a new one in the UK. I have actually thought about having one inported but they all run 50hz.

The only place I can find that might have them is western Japan, as they haev 60 HZ there. But all the websites I can find there are in Japanese (go Figure).

Hopefully in the next couple of years.... Natural Gas is not an option for me, not Available......

The folks administering the "Energy Star" program have established a prize for the first to market a heat pump dryer here in the USof A. Also GE has been awarded $4.8 million of " stimulus funds" to develop and market one. GE has said they'll introduce one in 2013. We'll see.

The Panasonic NHP80G!WGB may well work fine on 60HZ, it is known to use a frequency agnostic inverter drive for the compressor. I wish I could find detailed specs on it.

I am looking for some interested and informative posts during that search i got your post its nice i like your post.