There was a ban on clothes lines in Ontario for some time until 2008 when the ban was lifted. Toronto is even handing out free clothes lines (or was). It is still illegal for Rosie O'Donnell to air her dirty laundry (or clean) in public.

I am slowly getting rid of my gas appliances, heat pump is being built, gas range will move to induction, gas fireplace.....well.....maybe propane, we don't use it much. I want to change the dryer as well.

Liebler-

You do realize that a heat-pump clothes dryer will transfer heat from the room air to the dryer, cooling the house. Works good in the extreme southern U.S., but not so much north of there where the heating system has to be used to reheat the room air.

I used a clothes line when the weather was decent for many years, but now live in a colder, windier climate where clothes lines take more fortitude to use in the colder months. Fortunately, I have enough solar PV panels that I feel no guilt throwing the clothes in the electric dryer!

"You do realize that a heat-pump clothes dryer will transfer heat from the room air to the dryer, cooling the house. Works good in the extreme southern U.S., but not so much north of there where the heating system has to be used to reheat the room air."

Not AT ALL! All heat pump dryers are "vent less". Yes , the heat pump heats air going into the "drum" and it simultaneously cools and dehumidify s the air coming out. The net result is essentially no change in room temperature as the energy used to power the heat pump is, in effect used to remove the moisture from the cloths. A heat pump clothes dryer is a dehumidifier of cloths and works much like the stand alone dehumidifier that is often used to dry out wet basements.  A heat pump clothes dryer is very different than a heat pump water heater which does cool the air around it.

I stand corrected. You are right about the heat pump dryer cycle.

The guys at Lawrence Berkeley studied them (http://eec.ucdavis.edu/aceee/2010/data/papers/2224.pdf) and concludecd: "The results show that HPCDs have positive economic benefits only for households with high clothes dryer usage or for households with high electricity prices and moderately high utilization."

But it you want one, you should get one, and try it out.

The Berkly study COMPLETELY ignored the HVAC cost of a vented dryer and used dryer costs that are not what Europe is seeing, in other words it was a biased study designed to maintain the status Quo.

I wish I could get one! regrettably none are available in the US while in Switzerland there are over 50 models to choose from.

Posted By Liebler on 19 Oct 2012 09:28 PM
The Berkly study COMPLETELY ignored the HVAC cost of a vented dryer and used dryer costs that are not what Europe is seeing, in other words it was a biased study designed to maintain the status Quo.

I wish I could get one! regrettably none are available in the US while in Switzerland there are over 50 models to choose from.

Great point. Here in the USA "special interests" want to see that certain technologies don't see the light of day. Even some studies which are supposed to be "scientific" and not biased, are quite the opposite. They are influenced by certain entities that have their own financial interests in mind. One would be pretty naive to believe that there isn't more at play and not every scientific study is truly unbiased.

Good documentary to see is "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

Vent-less heat pump dryers work, they have been proven in Europe and are both economical and proven energy savers.

I wonder if drying time is an issue?
from http://www.houseofjapan.com/electronics/panasonic-expands-its-eco-home-appliance-range-with-the-introduction-of-a-new-heat-pump-tumble-dryer:
"The Speed Mode is for drying loads instantly, for those times when no other dress or top will do! By selecting this setting, the temperature is automatically increased till approximately 69°C to speed-up the drying cycle and save you time. With a drying time of 122 minutes, the new Panasonic NH-P80G1 is among the fastest heat pump dryers in the industry."

It looks like the EPA is trying to get the technology to the U.S.:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=pt_awards.pt_clothes_dryers

You can always buy one from Japan and use a transformer to convert the voltage:
http://www.amazon.com/Simran-SM-2000J-Japanese-Transformer-Converts/dp/B005GHGPZQ/ref=pd_cp_hi_1
You would have to find out what the surge power is and make sure that the transformer would cover that, and the power for the dryer is likely to be quite high. You also would want a dryer manufacturered in SW Japan where they use 60 Hz rather than 50 Hz.

"You can always buy one from Japan and use a transformer to convert the voltage:
http://www.amazon.com/Simran-SM-2000J-Japanese-Transformer-Converts/dp/B005GHGPZQ/ref=pd_cp_hi_1
You would have to find out what the surge power is and make sure that the transformer would cover that, and the power for the dryer is likely to be quite high. You also would want a dryer manufacturered in SW Japan where they use 60 Hz rather than 50 Hz."

The real issue is frequency, the voltage is close enough to not be a problem 220 vs 240 nominal. The Panasonic uses an inverter to drive the heat pump so that is no problem. There may be an issue with drum speed and timers. They may not be available in SW Japan as well

Best to wait for a US product for some level of product support.

Posted By Liebler on 19 Oct 2012 09:28 PM
The Berkly study COMPLETELY ignored the HVAC cost of a vented dryer and used dryer costs that are not what Europe is seeing, in other words it was a biased study designed to maintain the status Quo.

I wish I could get one! regrettably none are available in the US while in Switzerland there are over 50 models to choose from.

Taking it as just one sample, your recommended Panasonic NHP80G1WGB costs £700- £750 in the UK (multiple online sources), for just the unit- no installation or delivery.

That's over $1100USD at today's exchange rate, and considerably more than the  $953 cited for installed cost in the Berkeley study.  I'm not sure how under-stating the hardware costs of the newer technology by 15-20%is designed to maintain the status quo.

In most of Europe electricity is considerably more expensive than the US average, which would be a big factor in the financial net-present-value calc, and consistent with study's conclusions:

"In addition the LCC benefits are sensitive to electricity prices. For regions with high electricity prices (e.g., the Northeast and California), the LCC savings become positive at about 500 cycles/year."  (See p9-249)

Impugning the motives of people who actually do the math as a conspiracy without providing any facts to support your case isn't very useful.

Dana1,
What about the cost of reheating the air a vented dryer sends outside (100 -200CFM)?
Here is a quote from the UCD study:
"In this paper we looked at vented heat pump clothes dryers only. The European models
are all ventless. Based on the current DOE study (USDOE EERE 2010), the economics of
ventless HPCDs are likely to be less negative than for the vented HPCDs. Although ventless
clothes dryers represent less than 1% of the current U.S. market, there is potential for growth in
the market share of this product."

An admission they did NOT consider vent less models AND the vent less models are more efficient!

Current dryer prices at home depot range from $399 - $1099, all vented electrics. So at $1100 the Panasonic is in the range of today's US offerings while  it is near  the high end of European HPCD models.  There is a Hoover 9KG HPCD advertised for 495# or with Dana's conversion rate about $730 equivalent which is lower than the study's price!

Posted By Liebler on 22 Oct 2012 05:58 PM
Dana1,
What about the cost of reheating the air a vented dryer sends outside (100 -200CFM)?
Here is a quote from the UCD study:
"In this paper we looked at vented heat pump clothes dryers only. The European models
are all ventless. Based on the current DOE study (USDOE EERE 2010), the economics of
ventless HPCDs are likely to be less negative than for the vented HPCDs. Although ventless
clothes dryers represent less than 1% of the current U.S. market, there is potential for growth in
the market share of this product."

An admission they did NOT consider vent less models AND the vent less models are more efficient!

Current dryer prices at home depot range from $399 - $1099, all vented electrics. So at $1100 the Panasonic is in the range of today's offerings.

Add to that large families that run numerous loads in the dryer on a single cold winter or hot summer day. How much conditioned air is being sucked out by that vented dryer?

After Dana1 criticized my assertion that the UCD study was biased I found a discounter in the UK that offers HP dryers.
http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/large-home-appliances/tumble-dryers/3196/46/categorie.html

The I looked up the conversion from pounds to $ (now about 1.6).

The A efficiency rated model are vent less condensing heat pumps and here they are:
LG 970#, $1552
Panasonic 665# $1064
Bosh 625# $1000
AEG 539# $862
Hoover 469# $750
Beco 316# $505

The study claimed an average price of $433 for a conventional dryer and $833 for a VENTED HPCD which doesn't
exist to conclude that there is no economic justification for a HPCD in the US.

Later in the study they say at a product cost of $740 would make the HPCD economically beneficial for 20% of US households. When at least 2 models meet that criterion in Great Brittan RIGHT NOW the conclusion reached is simply WRONG! WHY?

Nowhere in the study is it stated that " there is no economic justification for a HPCD in the US". You can cherry pick pricing data if you like, but it doesn't make a credible case that your chosen set represents an average price for the industry, and even if it did, so what?

The study was analyzing the economics of a vented version based on prototype developed by TIAX for Whirlpool (as stated in the study). The cost estimates are based on a DOE model that presumes a high production volume, not the spot-market prices in Europe in 2009/2010 of ventless units (when the study was being written), and not the spot prices on select models available in October 2012 (2 years after publication.)

Yet the concluding paragraph of the paper begins with:

"In this paper we looked at vented heat pump clothes dryers only. The European models
are all ventless. Based on the current DOE study (USDOE EERE 2010), the economics of
ventless HPCDs are likely to be less negative than for the vented HPCDs."

This is an acknowledgement by the authors that a ventless heat pump water heater would have broader economic benefit than the vented version analyzed. Not exactly a conspiracy piece.

It's not the best write-up I've every seen (and the title is overly broad compared to the actual content) but don't just skim it, read the paper, eh? It's not an indictment of the heat pump dryers at all.

And the economics still make more sense in Europe, where the average electricity rates are more than 1.5x the US average, and in higher-priced European markets more than 2x the US average.

Dana1,
Feel free to polish the turd, it still stinks! The UCD study "Do Heat Pump Clothes Dryers Make Sense for the U.S. Market?" is seriously flawed! The flaws include ignoring vent less HPCD, ignoring the energy cost of replacement conditioned air, pricing assumptions that are at best a WAG.

Because of the "flaws" no part of it's conclusions are useful!

The UK sales site information suggests that there would be a $.21/load savings in electrical usage among electric models and that nat gas is cheaper than any of them (both at approximate US prices). What do you suggest adding to this for replacement air?

Posted By Liebler on 23 Oct 2012 07:40 PM
Dana1,
Feel free to polish the turd, it still stinks! The UCD study "Do Heat Pump Clothes Dryers Make Sense for the U.S. Market?" is seriously flawed! The flaws include ignoring vent less HPCD, ignoring the energy cost of replacement conditioned air, pricing assumptions that are at best a WAG.

Because of the "flaws" no part of it's conclusions are useful!

The only real flaw is the title, which is too broad- broader than what they actually analyzed.  The fact that they conclude that the vented prototype TIAX wouldn't likely be cost effective at the anticipated installed cost for most of the US is fine, as is their speculative conclusion (which they explicitly did not analyze) that unvented versions would have more favorable economics (but which they explicitly did not analyze.)

Calling it biased toward an entrenched status quo indicates a gross mis-read of the actual content.  But methinks it's the broadness of the title that sucked you in. No, they didn't really answer the title question, but they didn't exactly endorse a status quo either. The fact that their analysis was so narrowly focused, and on a product that has not (and probably will not) make it to market makes it not very useful, to be sure, but it doesn't mean the authors are part of a conspiracy to downplay the relevance of heat pump dryers. 

The looseness of the  title might draw one to think that they are analyzing the economics of the broad class rather than the prototype vented TIAX, but it's clear from actually READING the paper that it wasn't about heat pump driers in general, but rather an analysis of whether a vented version under development had any economic advantages. Bashing the authors' motives because it did not cover what you EXPECTED it to cover based on the title is a bit misplaced, but they do state exactly what the analysis does and does not cover. 

The title would more rightly have read:

"Do Vented Heat Pump Clothes Dryers Make Sense for the U.S. Market?"

Insert one word, problem fixed. No turds to polish, it's just a minor subject piece about a potential product of only marginal interest.  While we'd all like to see the NPV on products that actually exist, at actual market prices, but that paper made no pretense about being that.

The title is quite misleading: "Do Heat Pump Clothes Dryers Make Sense for the U.S. Market?" The part that seems somewhat fishy is the "U.S. Market" phrase. Someone who is from Europe, Japan, etc, or who knows about ventless heat pump dryers would immediately think the article is talking about ventless heat pump dryers like those in Europe.

Why did they include the "US Market" phrase when clearly they are insinuating by adding that phrase that they are comparing heat pump dryers from other countries, of which ventless are the majority of such dryers. To exclude the ventless dryers from such a study does not seem like a simple oversight, especially since we are talking about educated people who know what a ventless heat pump clothes dryer is all about. I'm not saying it a blatant biased piece, but it does seem sloppy and not what one would expect from a scientific article.

I've seen this type of bias quite a bit. Take for instance diesel cars. In Europe more than 50% of personal vehicles sold are diesel. The cars can get over 50MPG and produce very low emissions, can run for 1 million miles, and are found in cold climates. Yet when I researched articles about diesel cars here in the States, they spoke badly about them and the mindset here in the USA is that diesel cars are junk, pollute black smoke, are loud, and this belief shows as here in the USA diesel vehicles sold make up less than 2%. 

Now take for instance triple pane windows here in the USA. The big US window manufacturers are very slow to change and they don't want to retool their machinery and frames for triple pane windows. Even the head of Milgard came out on record and stated that triple panes are better but they didn't want to have to spend the money to change their equipment and frames to accommodate triple panes. I've read numerous bias articles that downplayed triple panes. So we have a US window industry that is slow to change while European windows are 10-15 years ahead of the energy curve.

Even the beloved ORNL was accused of a flawed and bias study over corn production, ethanol use and the environmental impacts. Follow the money trail, ORNL gets $1.7 Billion dollars in yearly funding from the US Government and only 10% is private funding. The corn industry has lobbyists and is quite powerful.

Money makes the world go around and even scientists and the studies they conduct are not immune to bias and the mighty dollar. Science is not infallible as some would like you to believe.

OK, 100 CFM of winter heated air for 120 minutes could be 10,000 btu. Using electric heat, that might be 3 kwh or $.33. Let's say that the most efficient HP dryers could save ~$.50 per load over a normal vented electric dryer in the winter and perhaps $.35 per load over the whole year. I'd do that if I didn't have nat gas.

Europe is ahead of the US in energy conservation because their governments have been smart enough to create higher energy prices (and tolerate dirtier diesels).

Posted By jonr on 24 Oct 2012 07:47 PM

Europe is ahead of the US in energy conservation because their governments have been smart enough to create higher energy prices (and tolerate dirtier diesels).

I don't know if you are being sarcastic but diesels are NOT dirtier than gasoline powered engines. That is another misconception. Gasoline engines produce high level of secondary organic aerosols while diesels produce negligible amounts. SOA's destroy human lung tissue and cause heart health issues, in addition they affect the climate. Modern day diesels are very clean and the soot issue is all but gone.

How much pollution & fossil fuel is emitted from a gas powered engine that gets 25MPG, while a similar diesel engine gets 50MPG. Or when that gas powered engine is DOA at 150,000 miles while the diesel engine goes over 500,000 miles.

Europe is ahead of the energy curve because special interests and biased "scientific" studies don't rule. While no county is perfect, Europe has been the model for energy technology. Germany has utilized more PV solar than we have here in the USA. Japan and Europe were utilizing mini-splits back in the 50's and 60's, while it has only started to become a little popular here in the USA around 2010.

Posted By jonr on 24 Oct 2012 07:47 PM
OK, 100 CFM of winter heated air for 120 minutes could be 10,000 btu. Using electric heat, that might be 3 kwh or $.33. Let's say that the most efficient HP dryers could save ~$.50 per load over a normal vented electric dryer in the winter and perhaps $.35 per load over the whole year. I'd do that if I didn't have nat gas.

Europe is ahead of the US in energy conservation because their governments have been smart enough to create higher energy prices (and tolerate dirtier diesels).

There is another REALLY BIG reason why they are ahead of us. We have turned individualism into a mantra and believe anything done for the common good smacks of communism. They have no choice. Put half a billion people into a space the size of Texas (I was thinking Ontario, but Texas is also a good comparison) and see whether we can keep our individualism without killing each other. they must think like a community.

Other than that, they just don't have the natural resources we have and must be proactive about it. I was over there for 3 weeks this summer and 80% of all cars were diesel and none of them smoked. Most are now cleaner than gas engines. They don't typically drive as many KM in a year as we do so their annual fuel cost is equal or lower than ours.

I am looking to get rid of my gas dryer and get HPdryer even if I have to get an AC/AC 50hz to 60 hz converter to do it. Same with my gas cook top which is being replaced with an induction cook top. Once the HP is built I will be gas free.