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Designing for inexpensive home construction
Last Post 27 Mar 2010 08:57 AM by cmkavala. 62 Replies. |
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MountainStone
New Member
Posts:12
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| 23 Jan 2010 05:53 PM |
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I seek advice on how to design a home to maximize construction efficiency and minimize construction cost. After much reading I have determined the following methods are favored:
1. Dimensions that match that of standard construction materials
2. Straight walls
3. Few corners
4. Simple roof (gable being the simplest) at minimum pitch
5. Clustering plumbing on common wall(s), preferably non-load-bearing ones
6. Cheaper to build 'up' rather than 'out' (more square footage under a smaller roof)
7. Fewer windows/doors. Use standard sizes wherever possible.
Are there any other design ideas that make construction simpler and thus cheaper? I'd rather spend money on quality materials than on fanciful design. I am new to this, so please correct me if I am wrong and forgive me if I have missed something obvious.
Many thanks!
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 23 Jan 2010 08:31 PM |
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Hi there
I too am building and am looking for ways to save money and not lower quality. Here are some ideas I have so far:
1) definitely put in a basement and finish it as opposed to making the footprint bigger if possible.
2) Behr paint at Home Depot just came out with a paint and primer in one. This should save you one round of labor in the painting. Behr paint is also high quality and not expensive, it is usually rated very high for value by consumer reports.
3) I am using a sheetrock return for my windows instead of trimming them out. This should save a lot of money and the look is acceptable to me.
4) Finish attic space over the garage, instead of increasing the footprint of the house.
5) Lowes has great tile really cheap, I would also look at discontinued tile from local stores. There is no reason to pay more than $1-$2 a foot for good quality ceramic or porcelain tile, if you are not trying to make your home the latest fashion statement. This tile is much cheaper than natural tile and easier to maintain.
6) I would not limit windows as that can make the house dreary, but you can use a good quality vinyl window and that would be less than wood.
7) Eliminate doors and walls that are not needed
8) a range is cheaper than a wall oven and separate cooktop
9) Use seed instead of sod when you are done.
10) Use mdf trim instead of wood if you are painting it (but I heard it dents easier and is not good for wet areas, so consider that).
11) I would not worry so much about clustering bathrooms because it may really impact your design and save you very little. Some plumbers price by the fixture and don't even take into account where they are so just make sure you are not really ruining your floor plan to accomplish this for minimal savings.
12) Find a plumber that is used to working with PEX. You will definitely get a better price and the quality is good. Many plumbers are still using copper because they are just used to it, but PEX can give you a good savings.
13) Although more expensive up front, geothermal heating and cooling is definitely a winner in the long run, and the federal gov is giving a 30% rebate on the cost with no limit. This makes it a no brainer, even if it means borrowing more upfront to pay for it.
Your utility bill will be dramatically reduced.
Hope some of this is helpful, even though some of it is not design issues.
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 24 Jan 2010 02:34 PM |
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#10 mdf trim
I wouldn't use mdf trim/boards/sheets or products containing mdf such as cabinets or furniture in a tight house because of air quality issues. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 25 Jan 2010 10:50 AM |
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Posted By greentree on 01/24/2010 2:34 PM
#10 mdf trim
I wouldn't use mdf trim/boards/sheets or products containing mdf such as cabinets or furniture in a tight house because of air quality issues. If the trim is being painted, wouldn't that seal the material & prevent off-gassing? Maybe not, but it seems to me like it would.. Mountainstone.. I would agree with your points and others - I think you're off to a good start. I'll add a couple more - sometimes to be cheaper, you need to spend more money. Don't skimp on the envelope, insulation, etc. For our house that we're starting, this was a big thing. We came up with our budget but then realized we were spending far more on mechanicals & insulation than is "normal". This required us to make a few compromises. What we decided to do is take a hard look at what we could relatively easily upgrade/change later, and what is a "one-shot deal". Things like flooring, counter tops, fixtures, etc....those things can be upgraded down the road pretty easily. The biggest thing is to do your homework, and this site is a great resource. Make sure you're looking at the whole project and how systems work together. If you spend more to get a very well insulated tight house, it's going to cost more - BUT - you may be able to get away with a smaller HVAC system because of it. Stuff like that can "even out". We have a lot where the back side of the house is south-facing, so we're designing for passive solar. It's not something that will affect the sizing of your HVAC system (because you still need enough capacity to heat when there is no sun, at night, etc.), but in the real world I'm expecting to save significant money because of it. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 25 Jan 2010 11:08 AM |
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Posted By sarayale on 01/23/2010 8:31 PM
Hi there
I too am building and am looking for ways to save money and not lower quality. Here are some ideas I have so far:
12) Find a plumber that is used to working with PEX. You will definitely get a better price and the quality is good. Many plumbers are still using copper because they are just used to it, but PEX can give you a good savings.
13) Although more expensive up front, geothermal heating and cooling is definitely a winner in the long run, and the federal gov is giving a 30% rebate on the cost with no limit. This makes it a no brainer, even if it means borrowing more upfront to pay for it.
Your utility bill will be dramatically reduced.
Hope some of this is helpful, even though some of it is not design issues.
12. I agree about pex. From what I've seen in our area, that is pretty standard - if you want copper, it's an upcharge. That may not be the case everywhere, though. 13. I would absolutely disagree with this statement. Geothermal can be a great longterm investment in the right situation, but to blindly recommend it is short-sighted. You need to have heat load calcs done & decide based on the numbers. Utilities will almost certainly be less with geothermal, but how much less is the question. If you're paying $7000-$10,000 more for the system (based on my experience), you need to have significant savings to make it worthwhile. I'm considering it a good decision for us if the payback is <10 years. In that case, we would need to save $60-$85/month to hit our target. The tighter & more efficient your house, the harder it will be to get there, since your "baseline" utility bills will be much lower to start. |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Jan 2010 11:19 AM |
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I know that geothermal almost always makes sense in the long run and usually pay back is less than 10 years. With the 30% tax credit, it seemed to me from what I have read that it becomes much more attractive and will usually pay for itself and give you savings. Yes, of course, you should compare for your own situation, but generally, from what I have read and I am no expert, with the federal tax credit, it will make sense in most situations if you can swing it. If your house is tighter, you should be able to downsize your geothermal system (loops and unit) and so the initial cost should be lower as well to install, so even though you might be saving less each month, because you are not needing so much to heat and cool, you initial investment should also be proportionately less. Just my thoughts, again, I am no expert. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 25 Jan 2010 11:46 AM |
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Posted By sarayale on 01/25/2010 11:19 AM
I know that geothermal almost always makes sense in the long run and usually pay back is less than 10 years. With the 30% tax credit, it seemed to me from what I have read that it becomes much more attractive and will usually pay for itself and give you savings. Yes, of course, you should compare for your own situation, but generally, from what I have read and I am no expert, with the federal tax credit, it will make sense in most situations if you can swing it. If your house is tighter, you should be able to downsize your geothermal system (loops and unit) and so the initial cost should be lower as well to install, so even though you might be saving less each month, because you are not needing so much to heat and cool, you initial investment should also be proportionately less. Just my thoughts, again, I am no expert. I will respectfully disagree with you. When we first started our building plans, geothermal was on my list of "we MUST do these things". As I learned more over the last 2+ years, I had to re-evaulate. I still haven't ruled it out, but it's not a guarantee at this point. Something to remember - there are fixed costs & variable costs with a geo install. Things like well-drilling or trench digging are basically fixed costs. Regardless of the size of your system, these costs will be there, and not vary a tremendous amount. The actual heat pump unit, which may be smaller, is a fairly small percentage of the total cost. Again...let's say that because our house is very well insulated, our "baseline" heating bill is $60/month (heating portion of the utility bill). Even if you can save 50% on your bill, you're saving $30/month. If the geo install was $7000 more, it's a roughly 19 year payback. The one thing I'm trying to consider for our situation is the likelihood of gas prices going up. As those prices go up, the payback gets shorter - I'll give you that one. Last point.. I'm not trying to argue against geothermal. It can be a great system and make a lot of sense. It has to be the right scenario, though. I would say the same of just about any product/system/construction method - don't recommend until you know the whole story - what works for one may not work for another. |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Jan 2010 11:52 AM |
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You are right, in the end you need to evaluate your own particulars. Our prices in NJ are so high for utilities that I guess I am biased in favor of anything to reduce them. |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 25 Jan 2010 02:15 PM |
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I'll direct these comments toward sarayale, and Mountain Stone. Jerkylips, who is also planning to build a new home, is making a great case, in this thread, for considering SIPs, eg his comments re: tight, energy efficiency construction. However, he has eliminated this option primarily, it seems, because the contractor that he has chosen can't make it pencil for him. There was a very "lively", and I think informative, thread, on the General Residential Forum that is titled
"Alternative to SIPs". if you haven't already read through that thread, you might find it interesting to do so.
In the meantime both of your "lists", for building less expensively, include the concept of simple, more cost effective designs. This concept blends well with the utilization of SIPs for your building envelopes. I'm happy to address questions, and discuss, my perspectives in connection with the use of SIPs, either on this public forum, or via the PM (private e-mail) option that is provided on this website.
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| The Sipper |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Jan 2010 02:31 PM |
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I am already using icfs although I have heard good things about sips. |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 25 Jan 2010 02:42 PM |
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sarayvale, are you going to use ICFs just for your basement? or for above grade walls also? Either way, SIps my be a viable option, either for above grade walls and roof with ICF basement, or roof on ICF walls.
If you haven't already chosen your ICF system, you might want to look at TF (the original "Vertical" ICF system). There are some excellent current posts , regarding the use of this system, on the GBT ICF Forum, by Clark, a very thorough "DIY'er" |
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| The Sipper |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 25 Jan 2010 02:50 PM |
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Posted By The Sipper on 01/25/2010 2:15 PM
I'll direct these comments toward sarayale, and Mountain Stone. Jerkylips, who is also planning to build a new home, is making a great case, in this thread, for considering SIPs, eg his comments re: tight, energy efficiency construction. However, he has eliminated this option primarily, it seems, because the contractor that he has chosen can't make it pencil for him. There was a very "lively", and I think informative, thread, on the General Residential Forum that is titled
"Alternative to SIPs". if you haven't already read through that thread, you might find it interesting to do so.
In the meantime both of your "lists", for building less expensively, include the concept of simple, more cost effective designs. This concept blends well with the utilization of SIPs for your building envelopes. I'm happy to address questions, and discuss, my perspectives in connection with the use of SIPs, either on this public forum, or via the PM (private e-mail) option that is provided on this website.
C'mon man, we went over this.....  There are basically 2 SIP suppliers locally. One does the manufacturing & installation, the other does only the manufacturing. The first place was astronomical - close to $150,000 for basement walls & SIP walls & roof - for a 2000 sq ft house. The second place bid out the materials. The materials alone were more expensive than my GC's bid for the framing job, including labor (Sipper - that's what I was referencing in the other post when I said my builder shouldn't be expected to work for free). |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Jan 2010 03:02 PM |
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We are using Nudura icf for all exterior walls. At this point, we have been in the planning stages for years and I cannot handle any more new stuff to investigate. Between the icfs, geothermal heating, solar panels, being my own contractor having no previous experience, designing the 12,000 square foot monster practically myself, even though I do have an architect, and trying to get the money to build upfront because construction loans seem like a huge headache, AND trying to stay on budget, I am already overloaded and cannot consider SIPs. There is just a limit to what I can handle with 5 kids to boot. I eliminated sips for the roof early on because I have heard it is really expensive and there is a just a limit to what we can afford, although I did not get estimates. |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 25 Jan 2010 04:11 PM |
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Sara
Your kidding right? Your designing and GCing a 12,000 ft^2 house with geothermal, and solar with no prior experience and you are worried about inexpensive construction techniques? I have to think the geothermal system alone will run you 100K. How about eliminating say 10,000 square feet and see how afordable Sips become.
Eric |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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gregj
Basic Member
Posts:326
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| 25 Jan 2010 04:22 PM |
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12,000 ft house? I thought this was a thread on inexpensive home construction. LOL
Mountainstone, You'll notice a lot of the homes built in the early 1900s were nearly square two stories. A square footprint gives you the maximum square foot with the minimum exterior surface area. (Well ok a round house would but I like to work with right angles). Less wall area = less cost. This can also help with minimizing utility bills.
Building up does get you twice the space with the same footprint foundation and roof but you lose some space for stairways. Generally you end up ahead with the stairs and the stairs can be a nice feature. But keep in mind that some people grow tired of going up and down stairs.
Don't scrimp on insulation. Good insulation will payback better and longer than even the most high tech heating systems.
Build walls on 24" centers with single top plates and the 2nd floor joists and roof trusses stacked directly above the studs.
Plan the window locations to match up with stud spacing to minimize stud usage.
A house actually doesn't need much trim. Forego baseboard trim. If you don't like the look it's easy to add it back later.
Minimize kitchen cabinetry. A good built in closet style pantry with a simple interior door will get you a lot more kitchen storage space at a fraction of the cost of cabinets.
It's a good idea but not as easy as it sounds to design to standard construction material measurements. |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Jan 2010 04:58 PM |
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Ok guys, yes the house is big, but 4,000 square feet is the basement. And, of course I have to worry about containing costs, all the more so with a house this large. The geothermal and solar eventually pay for themselves. In NJ we have excellent state incentives (plus federal rebate) for solar, so it really is worthwhile from a $ viewpoint. Geothermal is also very worthwhile right now due to the federal rebate.
And you may be laughing, but I am eliminating the GC also to save money. Cut down on square footage?? We already did, the original plan was over 9,000 square feet! We also eliminated the elevator and radian heat! I am hoping some of our kids will get lost in the house and we can get a rest from them. |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 25 Jan 2010 07:34 PM |
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sarayale, if I'd known that you were building a 12,000 sf house, my comments might have been a "bit different". You followed MountainStone's post with what appeared to be an objective that was similar to his, which doesn't appear to be the case. However I still contend, that any size home, with any level of amenities, should be super energy efficient. While ICF walls are certainly an excellent choice in this regard, if you don't complete your building envelope with a well insulted, penetration free, roof system, you'll lose much of the advantage gained with your ICFs. If its a relatively simple design with vaulted ceilings and/or conditioned attic space, it will likely be difficult to accomplish the same level of energy efficiency with "sticks and foam" as you will with SIPs, for less $$. Having said that, there are other factors that come into play, in addition to design considerations, the primary one is finding a contractor who is familiar with the system, or one who is interested in learning, at a price that makes sense for all concerned. (It ain't "rocket science" guys!)
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| The Sipper |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 25 Jan 2010 07:54 PM |
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jerkylips, In my opinion this thread really isn't about you, and my most recent comments weren't directed at you. However, I did mention you by name, and I understand your desire to continue to justify your decisions. However, I'm suggesting that we not hijack StoneMountain's thread by continuing our little "discussion" here. Maybe you would like to start yet another thread titled something like " $150K SIP shell for a 2,000 sq ft home" and then explain how this number was arrived at, along with more details regarding your other cost related comment.
(Imagine a smiley face here) |
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| The Sipper |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 25 Jan 2010 09:10 PM |
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Posted By The Sipper on 01/25/2010 7:54 PM
jerkylips, In my opinion this thread really isn't about you, and my most recent comments weren't directed at you. However, I did mention you by name, and I understand your desire to continue to justify your decisions. However, I'm suggesting that we not hijack StoneMountain's thread by continuing our little "discussion" here. Maybe you would like to start yet another thread titled something like " $150K SIP shell for a 2,000 sq ft home" and then explain how this number was arrived at, along with more details regarding your other cost related comment.
(Imagine a smiley face here)
No need for another thread & I'm not trying to hijack. I don't really feel the need to "justify" anything - you just had the facts wrong based on our previous "discussions". |
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Bob I
Veteran Member
Posts:1435
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| 26 Jan 2010 07:42 AM |
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MountainStone
One of the suggestions is to "Finish attic space over the garage, instead of increasing the footprint of the house." I want to inject a word of caution; as we tighten up our houses the chances of infiltration of carbon monoxide from the garage increases, so the need for vigilance and care in sealing the garage space also increases. I'd suggest as a minimium - on the bottom of floor joists over a garage - a layer of XPS foam foamed at the seams and taped with drywall under that. Do not run ductwork inside the garage. Install a low speed exhaust fan in the garage which runs continuously. Better yet, build a detached garage. |
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| Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant |
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slenzen
Basic Member
Posts:434
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| 27 Jan 2010 12:27 PM |
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How much do you think you'll save w/out a GC? I'd think in this slow market you'd get quite a deal. Plus w/ a house that size, one mistake could cost you plenty. At least hire one as a consultant to make sure your contractors are doing things right. |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 27 Jan 2010 12:52 PM |
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slenzen: I estimate I will save at least $150,000 as I don't think many contractors would take on this project with less than that in their pocket. I am sure I will make some mistakes, but I highly doubt they will add up to so much that it will negate my savings.
I have been to the International Builder's show twice, have read dozens of books (probably over a hundred) on everything from contracts, to lighting to framing etc. I may hire a contractor as a consultant or to be on site periodically to check up on stuff and also may have my architect make site visits. I have come a long way and in the end I think my intelligence and concern with detail will make up for lack of experience.
I have already caught lots of mistakes by my architect and grading engineer such as: grading engineer was designing drywells all over to absorb roof drainage etc. when I discovered we have a storm sewer that I can legally tie into running in front of my lot (he was supposed to have checked at my request but never did). How much do you think that saves us? My architect had the elevations off by a foot, how many problems would that have caused? I also saved the excavator hours by giving him a 50 year old map showing the sewer lines when he went out to cap the old sewer. The markout from the city was incorrect and the map was accurate.
I am being really careful to hire competent subs also, not the cheapest I can find.
My point is there are tons of things that can go wrong, and I am well aware of the mistakes that everyone is going to make. But, I am planning ahead paying attention to every last detail (including the 6" the architect stole out of my shower for no reason, which I made him put back).
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2158
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| 27 Jan 2010 01:35 PM |
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Sarayale,
Good luck with your project. Please keep us informed about your progress.
Building a home not only takes knowledge but it also takes a lot of patience and persistence to get things done the way you want.
Either you or your representative should check daily the quality of work performed. Correcting mistakes should be done as soon as possible. Waiting too long to correct a mistake can greatly increase the cost.
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 27 Jan 2010 01:54 PM |
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Posted By sarayale on 01/27/2010 12:52 PM
slenzen: I estimate I will save at least $150,000 as I don't think many contractors would take on this project with less than that in their pocket. I am sure I will make some mistakes, but I highly doubt they will add up to so much that it will negate my savings.
I have been to the International Builder's show twice, have read dozens of books (probably over a hundred) on everything from contracts, to lighting to framing etc. I may hire a contractor as a consultant or to be on site periodically to check up on stuff and also may have my architect make site visits. I have come a long way and in the end I think my intelligence and concern with detail will make up for lack of experience.
I have already caught lots of mistakes by my architect and grading engineer such as: grading engineer was designing drywells all over to absorb roof drainage etc. when I discovered we have a storm sewer that I can legally tie into running in front of my lot (he was supposed to have checked at my request but never did). How much do you think that saves us? My architect had the elevations off by a foot, how many problems would that have caused? I also saved the excavator hours by giving him a 50 year old map showing the sewer lines when he went out to cap the old sewer. The markout from the city was incorrect and the map was accurate.
I am being really careful to hire competent subs also, not the cheapest I can find.
My point is there are tons of things that can go wrong, and I am well aware of the mistakes that everyone is going to make. But, I am planning ahead paying attention to every last detail (including the 6" the architect stole out of my shower for no reason, which I made him put back).
My first thought is of liability. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to get through a project that big with NO mistakes. If you're hiring a GC & something big goes wrong, you should have some recourse against him/her. If you're doing it on your own & something happens, it's all on you. It would be one thing if you were building a small, simple house - but this is a very large project. Personally I would not take it on myself. I can speak from personal experience, on a much smaller scale. Our first house was an old fixer-upper. I'm a pretty handy guy & have some experience, so I wasn't concerned - but on more projects than not, I ran into something I didn't know how to handle. It caused delays & stress until I got it figured out. Knowledge is one thing, experience is another. Another thought - a project this big is going to easily take 6+ months. I don't know what you do for a living, but you need to factor in lost wages/opportunity cost if you're going to be a full-time GC. |
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mapnerd
New Member
Posts:27
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| 28 Jan 2010 03:02 AM |
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MountainStone,
We're on the same path. We are nearly two years into designing our family home and trying to do so with a middle class budget in mind. We have incorporated all seven of your suggestions above, as well as eliminating/scaling back on many of the finish details. Unfortunately, we have been getting bids that are nearly double the average home building costs here! SIP's are much more costly than I have been led to believe.
Finding the right builder will be key. As someone with little construction experience besides "lifetimes" of research over the past year or two, I'm finding it very frustrating to not know if these builders are even trying to be economical. Why is it so hard to build a sturdy, tight building without spending a fortune and selling a kid or two?
I don't mean to rain on your parade - I just want to share of my recent experiences on a seemingly similar project. Good luck on your project. I'd be happy to send you our specs if you want to compare notes. |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 06:41 AM |
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mapnerd: That is one of the reasons I am self contracting. We are using icfs and the builders here don't even know what that is and will charge you double if they are not successful in convincing you to give it up. I figured if my builder is not experienced in the foundation of the house, what is the point of paying for him to learn on the job. That is the most important part of the house.
Hang in there and keep looking for a builder you can work with. You might get a better price if you do a cost plus agreement, but you need to be very involved to make sure the subs and materials are being purchased at competitive prices, since you contractor might not care that much since he is not paying. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 07:31 AM |
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Posted By mapnerd on 01/28/2010 3:02 AM
. Unfortunately, we have been getting bids that are nearly double the average home building costs here! mapnerd and other owner/builders, in most cases when an owner builder solicits for bids you will pay more than an experienced GC. From past experiences suppliers and sub-contractors know that O/B's are learning as they go, will make mistakes that affect their subcontract work, costing the sub -time, money and effort thru the whole "hand holding" process. O/B's are also a one shot deal, with no future business potential that is realized with an on going General Contractor. Sometimes the premium you pay would offset the GC's discount. Because af lack of scheduling experience expect the construction time to take longer, causing additional loan payments and premiums for loan extentions. 2 years ago I quoted $225,000. for a turkey home, the owner insisted he wanted to GC the project and just have us install the shell. When the job was complete I asked him what he had in it? $228,000. with the oak stair upgrade. So unless ya just want to say "I did it myself" you should reconsider letting the Pro doing it, especially in this economic climate, there are many good builders available. We do many shells for O/B's I have only heard one that said he would do it again |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 28 Jan 2010 07:38 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 01/28/2010 7:31 AM Posted By mapnerd on 01/28/2010 3:02 AM
. 2 years ago I quoted $225,000. for a turkey home, the owner insisted he wanted to GC the project and just have us install the shell.
How did the turkey like his home?  |
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Eric Anderson
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Posts:441
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| 28 Jan 2010 08:43 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 01/28/2010 7:31 AM
Posted By mapnerd on 01/28/2010 3:02 AM
. Unfortunately, we have been getting bids that are nearly double the average home building costs here! mapnerd and other owner/builders, in most cases when an owner builder solicits for bids you will pay more than an experienced GC. From past experiences suppliers and sub-contractors know that O/B's are learning as they go, will make mistakes that affect their subcontract work, costing the sub -time, money and effort thru the whole "hand holding" process. O/B's are also a one shot deal, with no future business potential that is realized with an on going General Contractor. Sometimes the premium you pay would offset the GC's discount. Because af lack of scheduling experience expect the construction time to take longer, causing additional loan payments and premiums for loan extentions. 2 years ago I quoted $225,000. for a turkey home, the owner insisted he wanted to GC the project and just have us install the shell. When the job was complete I asked him what he had in it? $228,000. with the oak stair upgrade. So unless ya just want to say "I did it myself" you should reconsider letting the Pro doing it, especially in this economic climate, there are many good builders available. We do many shells for O/B's I have only heard one that said he would do it again Very well put. Generally, I don't recommend people being their own GC unless they have the skills to do a large portion of the work themselves or they are in the construction industry and have a general knowledge of the area and homebuilding. Remember, there are a lot of subs to hire for a large house, likely engineering, excavation, well driller, septic, foundation, framing, roofing, window and door sub, mason to build fireplace and chimney, Utility contracts and easements, electrical, plumbing, hvac, insulation, energy efficiency expert with blower door, drywall, painting, trim carpentry, cabinetry, hardwood flooring, tilework, glass shower enclosures, siding, gutters, landscaping, paving, etc. Most GC’s employ 10-30 different subs on a job. If you are doing this yourself and getting a minimum of 3 quotes from contractors you prequalify, you can easily be looking at 50-90 bids. You damn well better make sure each and every one of them has inurance and workers comp. Scheduling and coordination is a huge factor. I was talking a while back with a friend who is a GC. His point was that as a full time job, he can manage 4-5 sub 2000 ft houses at a time, 2 houses is the 3-4000 ft range, any house bigger than 5000 ft is a full time job managing it for ~ 6 months to make it work. He expects to be on site at any house he has under construction every day.
For my own house, I built it for slightly less then the average costs in the area ~20% less. However I did most of the work. I only hired 3 subs I did not already know and they were referrals from construction professionals I trust.
One of the things you have to keep in mind is that certain trades have very different price schedules for Pro’s and non Pro’s In plumbing fixtures etc it can be 30% more for you to buy something then a licensed plumber with an agreement at the facility. Lighting is the same way and Cabinetry is definitely the same way.
The other thing to remember is that shit happens. The utility company took 8 months to install the utility poles and connect power. 1 week after I got power, my house got hit by lightning and fried the transformer, meter and a lot of wiring. A GC is used to rolling with these things because every job has these problems.
A very good GC makes a good living. Bad GC's go bankrupt. I thing the myth of an owner builder saving 30% on construction costs is not real unless they are doin the building themselves and have lots of time On the other hand, with the right attitude it can be fun, and you can get exactly what you want.
Cheers
eric |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 08:43 AM |
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I disagree that you will pay subs more as an owner builder. Subs are very eager for work right now and if you get enough bids you can make sure you are getting a fair price. For my demolition, I was quoted about $15,000 from several guys and many other prices less than that. The guy I finally hired was $7300 and he included capping my sewer and removing a shed from a rental property (that was not included in the other higher bids). This guy is an excavator and I believe he gave me a good price because he wants my excavating job. He also recycles and separates all the junk and is thus able to dispose of it cheaper (I am guessing, he did not mention this). He works with his sons and thus everything stays in the family. If you take the time, and you will have to expend a lot of time, to interview and find good subs, and get accurate bids and put together a detailed contract, you should not have to pay more.
I am not sure a GC would have gotten 6-8 bids on the demo. He might have just hired the guy he always uses. If you let people know you are getting bids for everything they will give you better prices. I told my icf distributor that I would be getting bids from others for the same block and the price automatically dropped. I did get another bid that will save me $5,000. Everything adds up.
As an owner builder, since you are not making a living doing this, you can expend the time to get better prices. If a GC spent the time I am spending he would go broke as he would only be able to do one project every two years. If you can preplan before the interest clock is ticking on loans, you will be okay. Obviously, I am doing all of this before we break ground, so everything is in place when we start.
My brother did two complete renovations. The first was with a GC who was the worst he could have hired. It took forever, he wasted tons of extra money on rent while the house was getting fixed, and the guy tried to substitute inferior materials.
The next house he renovated he GCed himself, he hired a handyman to oversee, his sister in law to price out materials and subs, and he finished in half the time and was much more satisfied.
Granted the first builder was horrible and probably the worst you could ever hire except for the guy who just runs off with your money, but he was very pleased with the second project. Were there mistakes, yes, but the first house had no fewer mistakes and caused him much more aggravation and wasted money. |
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mapnerd
New Member
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| 28 Jan 2010 10:40 AM |
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Ishould have clarified my comment about "getting bids". I am not an owner/builder. Even if I wanted to be, banks here won't loan to owner/builders unless their background is in construction and they have a lot of capital. I am complaining that the high bids I have been getting are from GC's. It is a real struggle here to find a GC who will work together with me on getting bids from subs. They all want to just take your plans/specs and then come back six weeks later with a price. What advice would you give someone in their search for the "right" type of builder on a home that doesn't follow the more common building practices for that area?
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 10:47 AM |
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sarayale,
You can disagree all you want but I have 39 years of experience in my back pocket that says otherwise. I hope your not a lawyer or doctor cause that an automatic 5% upcharge
there are exceptions to the rule, but you still don't know if you got a cheaper price than a GC, you just know you got a better price than all the rest of the bids.
case in point ; on a recent shell build I told the O/B I would help him on the Overhead door and fireplace purchase, I saved him $600 on a $1500. door , I saved him $700 on the $2,900 fireplace and still made $300 myself on the FP.
Drywall Supplies .......... There are at least 3 price points: off the street that's You, GC that s me / and DW subs who buy the most and deserve the best price.
Don't quit your day job ;) You said it, you will expend a lot of time.
The top 3 words a GC hates to hear ....."but I thought" |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 11:23 AM |
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Posted By mapnerd on 01/28/2010 10:40 AM
Ishould have clarified my comment about "getting bids". I am not an owner/builder. Even if I wanted to be, banks here won't loan to owner/builders unless their background is in construction and they have a lot of capital. I am complaining that the high bids I have been getting are from GC's. It is a real struggle here to find a GC who will work together with me on getting bids from subs. They all want to just take your plans/specs and then come back six weeks later with a price. What advice would you give someone in their search for the "right" type of builder on a home that doesn't follow the more common building practices for that area?
mapnerd; I think that is the norm, usually GC's sub bids are confidential, unless you are doing a cost plus contract or hiring a GC as a consultant? If you are excluding the GC from portions of the work don't expect him to be anxious to help you with bids that he will make nothing on. Lump sum contracts are always the best (in my opinion) less surprises. T&M contracts almost never work out for the home owner, you never know where the end is. T&M is good for the contractor that does not know what he is doing, in fact there is no incentive to shop price for you, it just cuts his % down |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 11:24 AM |
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There is no definite answer. It depends on too many things so I don't see too much of a point going back and forth. But I will add that I am not so stupid to just buy drywall for a 12,000 square foot house at retail. Why wouldn't I let my sub buy it for me under his account or include it in his bid if he can get a better price. And, many subs are willing to pass discounts along to their customers to get the business. In addtion, there may be some suppliers that will give me the builder discount, not all, but some might and I just need one with a good price. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 11:38 AM |
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sarayale;
be careful, it is a slippery slope in dealing with sub's I have seen almost everything, ....not for profit subs? what good is business if there is no profit? sure your sub will let you get it under his account and you could be also paying for a few side jobs for material getting diverted. If you squeeze a guy too much they will figure out a way to get back out of you.
Good luck you have a true learning experience ahead |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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slenzen
Basic Member
Posts:434
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| 28 Jan 2010 12:40 PM |
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Looks like a great place for $100/sf. Wonder if the owner did some work himself.
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here.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 01:00 PM |
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Nice home! |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 28 Jan 2010 01:11 PM |
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Mike,
How much of a difference are we talking about, percentage wise? If you solicit bids from 3-4 reputable builders and they all return numbers higher then what you want/ can afford, then there is a disconnect somewhere. I remember a while back when you showed a proposed design for a house you wanted to build. I think when I ball parked the construction costs, I came up with 400K cutting corners and 600K to do it correctly and you said it was 300 K to build. Are you sure the numbers you are looking at are realistic? One of the things you should consider is sitting down with the builder or GC you like the best and be honest with him. Tell him what your budget is and ask what he can do or what things or compromises could be made to save costs? A good builder will work with you within reason. Remember that a spec house is usually a common design with all of the kinks worked out. You are building a one of a kind. It may even be worth your while paying someone to look at the framing layout and mechanical layout and suggest changes to make it easier to build. Another possibility is to leave portions of the house unfinished for a later date.
Good Luck |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 01:34 PM |
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Chris:
Who is talking about not for profit subs? I am paying subs for labor and it does not cost them anything to let me buy under their account to get a discount, or to tell the supplier to give me their pricing. I also never said anything about squeezing subs, I talked about getting estimates. I am well aware that subs need to make a profit and want to make sure they do, no one should work for free. And, you are right, if the sub is not making money, they will find a way to steal it out of you and/or hit you up for extras. I actually do not like to bargain down people for that very reason, I am afraid I will get shortchanged on the quality of the work. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 28 Jan 2010 01:44 PM |
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Sara,
Can I ask a question? I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, and if you choose not to answer, that's fine. But....how did you decide that you needed a 12,000 sq ft house? If it's what you want & you can afford it, then go for it - just wondering if there was a specific reason, like operating a business out of your home, lots of kids, etc. I'm just curious. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 01:59 PM |
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sarayale;
You make it sound like its a privelege to work for wages
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 02:09 PM |
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Jerkylips: The house is 8,000 square feet, plus the basement. We have 5 children and a live in housekeeper, right there we need 7 bedrooms, as my kids don't want to share bedrooms and fight more when they are forced to, like now.
I also wanted a couple of guest bedrooms for my parents or in-laws or sister as they all live out of town from us. My sister has 6 kids and my brother has 5 kids, and my youngest sister has two so far. If we are together for a holiday, that is already 28 people with just my side of the family, so you can see a need for a very large living and dining room.
My husband has thousands of books and needs a place for them. He also works from home when he can (he has a very long commute) so he needs space. I need an office, as I eventually hope to practice law out of the house. My oldest daughter loves to cook and has taken over my kitchen, thus a need for a big kitchen I am forced to share (and who doesn't like a spacious kitchen). My son needs a workshop as he is always building all kinds of projects.
We live by the shore in NJ and it is a summer town, although we live here all year round. It is very likely that as my kids get married and move away, they will move back home, families and all, for the summer. This is a very common occurrence, so if the house is big we can accommodate multiple families.
Yes, of course, we could live in something much smaller (I am in a tiny ranch for the past 10 years) but we like space and want to build our dream home. I have worked hard and so has my husband and we feel this is a great thing to do for our family, to have a big house, where everyone can have their own space, where guests are comfortable and welcome.
I grew up in a small apt in Brooklyn and hated never having a quiet place to do homework or read. I shared a tiny bedroom with 2 sisters and had one bathroom for 6 people. My brother had to sleep in the dining room, next to the freezer which could not fit in the kitchen. I had one drawer into which all my clothes had to fit, not one dresser, one drawer. I guess I am allergic to living in small spaces, where everything is somewhere else because it doesn't fit in the room it belongs in.
We will have a pool so the space also includes a cabana attached to the house.
So there you have it, how our house ended up so big!! |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 02:35 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 01/28/2010 1:59 PM
sarayale;
You make it sound like its a privelege to work for wages
I am not sure what you are reading between the lines or why you are so antagonistic, just because I will be my own GC. When I worked in real estate, I never told people they couldn't sell their house on their own or begrudged them. I just told them honestly the benefits and drawbacks of using a realtor. And if you are not happy working for wages, then what are you looking for? An easy way to make money by marking up your material costs and hiding it from customers. I do not mind paying a fair amount for labor, I don't want to pay extra for my materials when I am perfectly willing to do the work of purchasing them myself. And my subs so far, have no problem with that at all, and have been willing to help me with their connections. People laughed when I applied to Yale Law School. Well I got into Yale and Harvard. And people laughed when I chose to give birth at home. So I am used to doing things unconventionally and have faith in myself.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 03:24 PM |
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I do not mind paying a fair amount for labor, I don't want to pay extra for my materials when I am perfectly willing to do the work of purchasing them myself. If I seem antagonistic, its because your arrogance is beaming thru in your comments So what you are saying is you are also smart enough to to the material take offs for the drywall, corner bead, tape, compound, screws, etc. and just hand it off to the supplier? Or you plan to rely on the drywall sub that is just grateful to be working. an attorney I knew it! I would keep that a closely guarded secret. #1 on list of who not to do business with ........Attorney, you never get paid |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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MountainStone
New Member
Posts:12
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| 28 Jan 2010 03:43 PM |
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Thank you to the folks who contributed positively to the subject of this thread. Lots of good information here. I wouldn't have guessed a plumbing sub would bid a job per fixture without regard for where those fixtures are spaced throughout a structure - that certainly frees up design, though I would still suggest planning as much plumbing as possible for interior walls so as to preserve the integrity of the building envelope.
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 28 Jan 2010 04:22 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 01/28/2010 3:24 PM
I do not mind paying a fair amount for labor, I don't want to pay extra for my materials when I am perfectly willing to do the work of purchasing them myself. If I seem antagonistic, its because your arrogance is beaming thru in your comments So what you are saying is you are also smart enough to to the material take offs for the drywall, corner bead, tape, compound, screws, etc. and just hand it off to the supplier? Or you plan to rely on the drywall sub that is just grateful to be working. an attorney I knew it! I would keep that a closely guarded secret. #1 on list of who not to do business with ........Attorney, you never get paid yikes, flip off the light switch & put that bag over your head - it's about to get ugly! |
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The Sipper
Basic Member
Posts:264
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| 28 Jan 2010 04:52 PM |
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MountainStone, You were right the first time, less labor and material is required to cluster plumbing, and it is much better to keep plumbing out of exterior walls for the exact reasons that you mentioned. I think that this is a concept that has a lot of merit, considering the subject of this thread. Having said that, you're talking about a substantial, long term, investment, so you probably don't want to do something that you're going to hate for the sake of a few $$.
Now, I've made my "pitch" for SIPs, as a building envelope system to consider, in several previous comments on this thread, as well as on other recent threads and forums on GBT, that are somewhat related. I'm assuming that you, and others who are in similar positions, are probably sifting through all of these "discussions" in an effort to "separate the wheat from the chaff", so to speak.
In any event, good luck with your research, as well as with your eventual project.
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| The Sipper |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 28 Jan 2010 04:53 PM |
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Chris:
First of all, if I had to learn how to do a take off, I am sure I could learn, it is not rocket science ( and I just bought a really cool calculator just for that purpose).
Secondly, I would not mind paying for someone to do a take off for me if I had to. I don't expect people to work for free.
Thirdly, I am sure you don't do your own take offs for all of your materials and do rely on your subs and suppliers. So why is it different if I am my own GC?
But of course, this is not really about take offs, it is just about discouraging someone who threatens you. The fact that a person who is not a contractor for a living can get a house built scares you. Wake up, there are thousands of people who do it every year. And for every person who did it and felt like they had a bad experience, I can name you a person who felt raped by their contractor and wouldn't hire them again.
I am not arrogant at all. I have friends who did not even graduate high school and I respect them. I have friends who are dirt poor and don't feel I am better than them. But my friends have one thing in common, they are genuine and not full of BS and that is what I respect.
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 28 Jan 2010 05:02 PM |
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Posted By The Sipper on 01/28/2010 4:52 PM
MountainStone, You were right the first time, less labor and material is required to cluster plumbing, and it is much better to keep plumbing out of exterior walls for the exact reasons that you mentioned. I think that this is a concept that has a lot of merit, considering the subject of this thread. Having said that, you're talking about a substantial, long term, investment, so you probably don't want to do something that you're going to hate for the sake of a few $$.
Now, I've made my "pitch" for SIPs, as a building envelope system to consider, in several previous comments on this thread, as well as on other recent threads and forums on GBT, that are somewhat related. I'm assuming that you, and others who are in similar positions, are probably sifting through all of these "discussions" in an effort to "separate the wheat from the chaff", so to speak.
In any event, good luck with your research, as well as with your eventual project.
I meant to respond about the "clustering" of plumbing before but I forgot. I think that what you've heard is related to using copper vs. pex. I had this same conversation with my builder. It used to be that pex was actually a little more expensive than copper, but labor costs were lower because it could be pulled in one length without having to solder 90's & stuff. The pex connectors, which are needed in some places, are kind of expensive, though. With the price of copper through the roof, the pex materials are actually cheaper now, PLUS the labor is cheaper. I think some of the "clustering" benefits have been mitigated. It's probably still cheaper to do it that way, but maybe not by much. I agree with Sipper - if you're planning to be in a house long term, is it worth it to put a fixture somewhere other than where you want it so you can save a couple hundred bucks? Maybe not, but on the other hand each "couple hundred bucks" adds up. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 28 Jan 2010 05:08 PM |
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sarayale;
You right your not arrogant, looks like you have it all figured out! When you get it all finished in 4 years please let us know how it all worked for you. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1151
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| 28 Jan 2010 06:48 PM |
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Mapnerd, ask your banker for a list of builders who will look over your shoulder for a flat fee. This arrangement worked very well for me. You get qualified subs; you deal directly with them. If they don't show up, you complain to your consultant, who presumably will jerk their chains. This last is the curse of the owner/builder. If a sub has to disappoint someone, you don't want to be the guy he'll never see again.
I am on my own this time building in an area where I know no one. I got plugged into a network of reasonable subs fairly quickly just by asking for names. It isn't hard to figure out who are the good guys.
Last point: if you aren't scouring Craigslist and auctions for surplus building materials you are leaving a lot of money on table. I wound up buying rebar for my ICF sub. Found a place selling 20-foot #4s for $4 a stick.
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mapnerd
New Member
Posts:27
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| 28 Jan 2010 11:14 PM |
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ToddM,
Thanks for the tip. I was thinking about asking my banker something along those lines. I like the idea of being somewhere in between an owner/builder and having a GC. That may also be a good way for me to have some honest conversations about my budget and where we could maybe save some costs.
Craigslist rules! I also like the Habitat for Humanity Restore and our local architectural salvage yard - lots of builder overruns and quality secondhand stuff. |
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mapnerd
New Member
Posts:27
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| 28 Jan 2010 11:23 PM |
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Posted By eric anderson on 01/28/2010 1:11 PM Mike,
How much of a difference are we talking about, percentage wise? If you solicit bids from 3-4 reputable builders and they all return numbers higher then what you want/ can afford, then there is a disconnect somewhere. I remember a while back when you showed a proposed design for a house you wanted to build. I think when I ball parked the construction costs, I came up with 400K cutting corners and 600K to do it correctly and you said it was 300 K to build. Are you sure the numbers you are looking at are realistic? One of the things you should consider is sitting down with the builder or GC you like the best and be honest with him. Tell him what your budget is and ask what he can do or what things or compromises could be made to save costs? A good builder will work with you within reason. Remember that a spec house is usually a common design with all of the kinks worked out. You are building a one of a kind. It may even be worth your while paying someone to look at the framing layout and mechanical layout and suggest changes to make it easier to build. Another possibility is to leave portions of the house unfinished for a later date.
Good Luck
eric,
I think the problem now is one of two things - 1) as you described, I am not being realistic about the building costs or 2) I haven't got my drawings and specs specific enough. It seems there are a lot of "assumptions" in the prices and quantities/areas. It may very well be a combination both 1 & 2 that's my problem.
I plan to go through the bids and tighten up my specs and add some detail to our drawings. I'm very open to having someone look at our plan and give us some honest opinions. Send me a message offline if you'd like to discuss (mapdork At gMail dot com). |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 29 Jan 2010 05:22 AM |
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mapnerd,
anytime someone has to guess at something in an estimate it will be to the high side, the more refined you get your plans and specs the more accurate the bidding |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1151
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| 29 Jan 2010 07:53 AM |
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Mapnerd, the appeal to the builder in this arrangement is more money for little time expended. I suspect that you will find more resistance to it in this economy because most builders have lots of time but little money. You don't want them, except maybe a retired builder; you want the guy who is still working. Same goes for subs. The best are as busy as ever. Recessions peel off, in order, the guy who just painted his name on the pickup, the guy who cuts corners, the guy who charges too much.
You also have an equalizer in scheduling conflicts. Even the best subs have problems getting paid. Whip out your checkbook at the earliest opportunity. Your name will get around.
Don't forget auctions. Go to auctionzip.com and search for construction or building materials.
There is a temptation when you find deals to upgrade. #3 rebar at $3 a stick, for example, cost me $400 because I installed it 12" OC in 1000 sf of slab, or $500 rather than $100 for rewire. Discipline, discipline, particularly at auctions.
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Cgallaway
New Member
Posts:47
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| 17 Mar 2010 07:56 PM |
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I would suggest as MountainStone does that clustering the plumbing is a good idea. Down the road, should something break, it's all in one area, minimizing damages, rather than (for sake of argument) a pipe that runs the length of the house that can burst anywhere along the length of the house. |
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rpatterman
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Posts:24
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| 23 Mar 2010 06:40 PM |
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There are many good reasons to cluster plumbing other than saving a few dollars on install.
Short distances from water heater to fixtures means hot water faster with less wasted water.
Shorter drain runs means a quieter house and less problems with stopped up pipes.
Any plumber that just bids "by the fixture" without looking at the layout is both lazy and not too smart. |
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sarayale
New Member
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| 23 Mar 2010 06:56 PM |
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While clustering plumbing sounds good, what good does it do to build a new home and have sinks and bathrooms where they are not convenient, just so they are clustered? I personally put my kids bathrooms near their bedrooms, so they don't have to walk down a long hallway half naked. Yes I could have clustered them, but that might have meant not having windows in some of the bathrooms or having them far from the bedrooms.
I would not make blanket statements about plumbers. Most of them that I have met do bid by the fixture. It does not mean they are lazy, it simply may not be worth their time to nickel and dime the customer for each fixture by distance, and it makes it easier for everyone to have a set price for each fixture. It also does not mean they are not smart, they simply choose to have a different fee structure than you like. These blanket statements are way too broad. |
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rpatterman
New Member
Posts:24
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| 23 Mar 2010 07:09 PM |
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Never said that clustering plumbing should over ride the design that works for the eventual homeowner.
I just pointed out that there were more reasons to cluster the plumbing than just the install cost (such as the efficiency of the systems).
If a plumber bids "by the fixtures" and bids two homes, one with stacked wet walls and the other with the same number of fixtures at opposite ends of the house, and he bids them the same, then the person with the clustered plumbing overpays and the plumber makes less on the less
efficiently laidout house. Therefore my assumption he is lazy and not too smart.
I prefer to bid jobs based on how much labor and material goes into that job, not an average cost per fixture. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2158
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| 23 Mar 2010 07:57 PM |
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Bidding by the fixture averages out from the plumber's point of view. When it does not, the plumber raises the price per fixture for everyone. Needless to say, it does not average out for the homeowner that clustered the plumbing. Here in the South I gave up a long time ago on trying to save money by clustering the plumbing. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 25 Mar 2010 08:51 AM |
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Sara,
Most of the houses we are discussing are quite a bit smaller than yours. Clustering can often be done with minimal changes to the layout and gain efficiencies. Often times there will be 2 or more clusters, but when plumbing can stack vertically in walls and share common walls it does make plumbing, clearing clogs and repair more efficient.
When plumbing is very spread out, it becomes very hard to maintain ¼” per foot of slope in horizontal waste pipes. As one example, if you have to connect 2 waste lines that are 40 ft apart you have 40/4” of drop or 10” now the pipe is 3.5” OD so you need 13 .5” of vertical space to do it in. If you have planned ahead and used a truss type floor joist that is 15” high you are home free. If you used a 11” I joist, you are screwed.
As far as bidding by the fixture, that depends on the plumber. The plumber that I used to use in remodeling situations bids by the complexity and what he has to do. At the same time I always show him the layout ahead of time and what I wanted to do before deciding on placement of fixtures, etc. Often he can tell me how the easiest (read cheapest) way to do something is. Sometimes moving a joist or 2 a few inches at the framing stage can make the plumbers job much easier.
When I built my house, I had a plumber do the layout to be maximally efficient. The kitchen and bathroom layout were designed in part around plumbing requirements. On the other hand, I knew I was doing the labor so it saved me time personally as well as materials costs. I worked it out so that the joist layout accommodated the plumbing layout and vice versa.
A GC I bicycle with and bounce questions off of takes his lead framer, plumber, electrician and HVAC lead out to a good steak restaurant before they break ground on a new house he is building. Afterwards they all go over the plans and each trade talks about what changes could be made to make their lives easier without affecting the overall design. When the plumber and HVAC guys know you are willing to make changes so that their job is easier/faster, they charge less. The framer can make the changes ahead of time and not have to come back in and fix the stuff the HVAC guy cut through. Using this type of systems approach pays big dividends.
Cheers
Eric |
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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sarayale
New Member
Posts:38
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| 25 Mar 2010 09:30 AM |
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Eric, thank for that info which is actually helpful. I will take that advice. I have actually been trying to get input at the design stage from the subs but find I am in a catch 22. I don't know what subs I am using until I can get bids. I can't get bids until my plans are complete from the architect. I don't want the plans complete until I get input from the subs. I don't want to waste too much of a subs time if I am not sure I am using them, and I can't be sure until I get pricing.
But that is great advice about having everyone meet. I am really trying to keep everyone coordinated, which I think is probably the hardest part about building. My plans are now done from the architect, I will get bids, pick the guys I like and then if necessary make any changes to the plans.
Thanks again. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 27 Mar 2010 08:57 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 23 Mar 2010 07:57 PM
Bidding by the fixture averages out from the plumber's point of view. When it does not, the plumber raises the price per fixture for everyone. Needless to say, it does not average out for the homeowner that clustered the plumbing. Here in the South I gave up a long time ago on trying to save money by clustering the plumbing. Alton; you are right, unless you are dealing with a multi family or multi commercial bath clusters, plumbers do not give any consideration to fixture placements/savings |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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