Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 15 May 2009 03:00 PM |
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What does everyone think of the idea of building a composite wall of concrete and solid Geofoam expanded polystyrene blocks? Here is my idea that I may want to try: Use concrete block, placed concrete or ICF's for the outside wall. This masonry wall of nominal thickness would serve as structure to support the roof and protect the house in a storm. And then use large Geofoam blocks to build the inner wall. (Geofoam is available in various densities, thickness and depths. See http://www.geofoam.com/) The two walls do not have to be tied together since the Geofoam could be anchored to the slab. The Geofoam wall inside the house would not need a footer since it is so light and non-structural. Route out the Geofoam wall for the electrical and other utilities. Then use stucco or a synthetic stucco such as Sealmark (acrylic - no cement) on the outside face of the concrete and the inside face of the Geofoam wall for the finish. By using this system of two dis-similar walls, we have the insulation and the massive walls. In fact, we can dial in the thickness of the combined walls. In some coded areas, all of the expanded polystyrene would have to be protected from fire with real stucco or drywall. The outside could be Sealmark to avoid water intrusion problems.
Although Geofoam is available with termite resistant Perform Guard, there should not be any termite problems - no structural wood in the walls.
The above method of building a composite wall would be a takeoff on the SAB system without the engineering or special admixtures and glass-fiber reinforced concrete coating.
I am posting here for everyone to comment. Be honest in your critique. Other than the extra cost for the two walls, what else is wrong with this method? I thank the posters in jelston's topic for making me think of this system.
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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ICFconstruction
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1324

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| 15 May 2009 07:36 PM |
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With all the thermal mass opinions out there, maybe you would want to put the EPS block on the outside of the ICFs. Or you could use a composite ICF. I saw a house in Nevada that used a double wall of Cempo composite ICFs, one filled with concrete, one not. They also use the empty composite ICF as a counter top island base and accents on the stucco exterior. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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jelston
 New Member
 Posts:12
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| 15 May 2009 09:36 PM |
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Alton: You are going in exactly the direction (albeit with more expertise than I have) towards which I have been meandering. Essentially, high tech concepts, and low tech materials/skills. I am trying to do the same with respect to the roof for the house that I am planning: I want an insulated concrete roof (Ike made unlivable my old house) and I am planning on using the salvaged cedar beams with 1 x 12 tongue and groove old growth pine as the deck/form on which to lay the styrofoam and then to pour the concrete roof which should be self supporting once poured and cured. I leave the formwork in place recycling it just for the appearance (although true 4 x 12 cedar beams are pretty structural in their own right) and I've got my concrete roof, a traditional wood ceiling from below, all without paying for patents (not trying to knock too hard the guys with the patents). And on a geo, socio, and political note, the general approach you're talking about leads to much better solutions for the folks who can least afford to pay their utility bills. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 15 May 2009 09:50 PM |
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What if the Geofoam was used as a stay-in-place form for the placed reinforced concrete? It would be very similar to an ICF wall without having to be limited to what is available in ICF blocks. The thickness of the foam on both sides of the concretre wall would not have to be the same. In fact, the foam thickness could be adjusted to meet local weather conditions. This change would still allow routing the inside foam for electrical wires. More than likely, there would be a need for some bracing to hold the Geofoam in place but probably not as much bracing as required by ICF blocks since there would be only vertical joints. To build this composite wall, a wall of Geofoam blocks could be placed full height for a one-storey home and braced and then a rebar grid tied in place with spacers to maintain the right distance from each side of the Geofoam. Stack the other Geofoam wall the correct distance away and brace. Place concrete and after curing install roof.
Geofoam is readily available in several states which would reduce freight costs. Standard sizes are 4' wide, 8' tall, and 1" to 36" thick. I would prefer to use 10' tall pieces (ceiling height) which I understand are available by special order. Taller pieces would eliminate horizontal joints. This system would also allow any total thickness of wall desired. In my climate I am thinking about using 4" foam + 6" concrete + 4" foam. Unlike ICF walls, there would not be any ties to anchor drywall or exterior claddings. But that is ok since I would use Sealmark on the outside and stucco inside. I do not see any code issues provided the inside face of the foam that is inside the home is protected with stucco that is thick enough.
Other than cost, what problems would be expected using this system? |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 15 May 2009 09:59 PM |
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I am currently consulting with a homeowner that wants two-story ICF walls and a flat concrete roof. He plans to use the roof as a deck for parties. The flat roof will actually have a slope of 1/4" per foot for drainage to the rear. We are considering various systems to support the flat concrete roof. Looking at pre-stressed pre-cast hollow-core concrete planks versus bar joist/structural metal pans versus structural pans supported by shoring. It will be interesting when the quotes are in on the various systems. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 15 May 2009 10:06 PM |
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Jelston,
You may need temporary shoring in the middle of the wide spans to prevent sags in the roof. I have seen sags in ceilings caused by the wet concrete and the extra weight of the workers standing in the middle of the span. The temporary shoring should be able to be removed after about 14 days of curing. I prefer to leave the shoring in longer if it is not rented. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 16 May 2009 01:41 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 05/15/2009 3:00 PM Use concrete block, placed concrete or ICF's for the outside wall. This masonry wall of nominal thickness would serve as structure to support the roof and protect the house in a storm. And then use large Geofoam blocks to build the inner wall.
What is the proposed insulation thickness? With 4-6" I prefer the insulation on the outside to take adbantage of interior thermal mass. If >8", I believe thermal mass matters less and less with increasing insulation thicknesss, so what you propose should deliver good performance. It may be "less good" than if it had some internal thermal mass, but good performance none the less. For me, insulation trumps thermal mass. Bruce |
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 16 May 2009 02:04 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 05/15/2009 9:50 PM To build this composite wall, a wall of Geofoam blocks could be placed full height for a one-storey home and braced and then a rebar grid tied in place with spacers to maintain the right distance from each side of the Geofoam. Stack the other Geofoam wall the correct distance away and brace.
I don't think it is possible to do this without through-wall form ties, although my formwork design course was about 40 years ago. I would not trust only bracing to keep it together during a pour. From memory...on the ICF forum they mention a vertical ICF system (TF?) that does more or less the same thing. I do like the custom range of inuslation possibilities that your concept provides. Bruce |
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 16 May 2009 02:12 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 05/15/2009 9:59 PM
I am currently consulting with a homeowner that wants two-story ICF walls and a flat concrete roof. He plans to use the roof as a deck for parties. The flat roof will actually have a slope of 1/4" per foot for drainage to the rear. We are considering various systems to support the flat concrete roof. Looking at pre-stressed pre-cast hollow-core concrete planks versus bar joist/structural metal pans versus structural pans supported by shoring. It will be interesting when the quotes are in on the various systems. What deflection criteria is being used? Make sure your slope is sufficient to be greater than deflection...and don't forget overflow drainage. I hope to do somehting similar in a few years so I am curious how you find the economics. Will you insulate above or below the slab? Bruce |
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jelston
 New Member
 Posts:12
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| 16 May 2009 08:28 AM |
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Alton: I appreciate your pointing out the shoring issue as wet concrete is very heavy of course. I was not planning on leaving the cedar beams without support during the pour and cure and even though rented, I'll probably try to leave shoring in place for at least a full thirty days cure time. My beams are about as true as they can be, I don't want to change that. jke |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 16 May 2009 08:47 AM |
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Bruce, I am considering using 4" foam + 6" reinforced concrete + 4" foam. I think it will take a minimum of 4" of expanded polystyrene on both sides to have enough strength to hold the wet concrete. My goal is to superinsulate and build a home that will withstand storms. The concrete wall would be used as the necessary structure only.
I like the idea of stucco or the look of stucco inside and outside. I admit that I have done only one home (Insteel forms with shotcrete) where the inside and outside facades were stucco. The interior partitions were steel studs covered with drywall. After the drywall was finished, the only way we could tell which wall was real stucco and which wall was drywall was by knocking on the walls. Drywall walls sounded somewhat hollow.
I have used vertical ICF's (homemade) with 2.5" of foam on both sides with great results. With through-the-wall ties it took minimum bracing. The bracing also allowed myself and another person to walk around on while placing the concrete. By the way, Geofoam has an application that uses their foam for foundations. My concept just extends it up to the full height of the wall.
After thinking about it, I agree that ties would be necessary to keep the wet concrete from separating the two walls of Geofoam.
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 16 May 2009 09:04 AM |
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Bruce, Yes, I agree with you about being sure that the rain will drain off of the roof quickly. Water, if left to stand long enough, will try to find its way through a roof. For this house, I have designed a primary and secondary drainage system that will be easy to monitor.
I will try to remember to let you know which system our structural engineer decides to use to support the roof. We are very aware that excessive deflections and vibrations, although safe, would cause uneasiness in the homeowner and guests.
All comments and questions will be appreciated. We certainly do not want to overlook the obvious or less mundane things in our design. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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